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 2014-02-25 10:33 PM in reply to: Stuartap |
Master  1779    |  Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSEDSuzy- thanks for the sweet note. I'm not going to become a duathlete. lol.. That requires running really FAST! Congrats on qualifying for AG Nationals. You're lucky to live so close to so many cool races. Stuart- didn't you once recommend swimming with a tennis ball under your chin for head placement? I probably read one of your notes wrong and thought that was what you said instead of putting the ball in your hands. One day I tried to swim with a tennis ball tucked under my chin. I swam about 3 strokes before the ball popped out. This little exercise amused the life guards. It was basically impossible to keep the ball under my chin and swim. Chris- one thing that I've noticed is a lot of runners/cyclists try to swim too fast when they first start out. They have the endurance to swim faster but are missing some basic mechanics. Just give it time and one day it will click. I"m still waiting for something to click on my swim.
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| 2014-02-25 10:49 PM in reply to: Catwoman |
Extreme Veteran 1190 Silicon Valley | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED No it wasn't me on the tennis ball under the chin. I will have to think about that one. But a big proponent of holding them in your hands fr more experienced swimmers. |
| 2014-02-26 5:53 AM in reply to: 0 |
| 121 Grand Rapids, Michigan | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Stuart- Thank you so much for some thoughts. I'll try to answer a few of your points and see if I can remember everything correctly. The instructor I am using is the aquatics director at a nearby Y. He swam in college and said he used to teach more kids but in recent years has switched to more focus on adults and, according to him, specifically triathletes. We have done some things similar to some of the things you have mentioned. In my first lesson he just watched me swim and, at the time, said he was pleasantly surprised (I'll bet he regrets that statement now). He did say at the time my head was too high and my kick was "too good". He said he was happy he didnt have to teach me how to kick but would actually have to teach me not to kick as a lot of my propulsion was coming from there. (Side note - I stink at pull buoy drills! I mean really stink) He also said I swim too fast almost all the time, except when I'm drowning... As for breathing; it is the slow steady exhale under water that is my big bugaboo right now. When I started I was doing the exhale and inhale on the turn, obviously terrible. We worked on some stationary breathing things and a lot of breathing work with the kickboard, both just kicking and kicking while adding in one arm stroke at a time, but still with the kickboard. Recently he has had me doing a catch up drill where I don't start my stroke with one arm until the other has returned to the glide position. My issue seems to be that on the exhale I cannot regulate a pressure that allows me to SLOWLY blow out the air. I have a point of no return from no air coming out at all to then when I build enough pressure it comes out all at once and I feel like I'm gasping by the time I turn for a breath. Not sure if that makes sense or not, if not let me know and I can try to explain it better. My current work around for this issue seems to be defaulting to holding my breath after first retunring to the face down position and then beginning my exhale prior to the turn for the start of the next breath. When it works right I can approach finishing my exhale just as my mouth clears the water line for the inhale. There have been a few times when this has actually started to feel rythmic (read only 50-75 meters at a time) and I have actually been able to regain control of my breath in a pool length. I know this technique is still wrong as I should never be holding my breath and I want to get it right now. This is all VERY frustrating! I have NEVER struggled so hard to pick up really any athletic endeavor. Chris Edited by 43YORook 2014-02-26 5:54 AM |
| 2014-02-26 7:26 AM in reply to: 43YORook |
Veteran 976 New Hampshire | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Stupid little thing that a buddy of mine told me when I first started swimming in regards to breathing was "Talk to the fish, listen to the fish" Haha, I know it's dumb, but I exhale with my head down (talk to the fish, not yell) then I inhale with my ear still in the water (listen to the fish) to remind myself not to fully take my head out of the water to breath which was something I did at first which wasted a ton of energy and killed any momentum. It's dumb, but it was so lame and simple that I had to chuckle at it, and it seemed to work. It sounds like I honestly had almost the same breathing issues as you, which for me stemmed from just not being comfortable in the water. I could not for the life of me grasp exhaling under water without it instantly coming back in. I tried nose plugs and those really didn't do anything. Once I got more time in the water more or less just flailing around I was able to get it under control, but it's tricky. It sounds like you're going in the right direction with lessons, which I never did  |
| 2014-02-26 9:47 AM in reply to: 43YORook |
Extreme Veteran 1190 Silicon Valley | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Chris your beginning is very typical. Holding the head 'too high' is a breathing issue which we have been discussing. The kicking 'too good' is really kicking 'too hard' and likewise is a very common. The kick is actually not a significant source of propulsion in distance swimming. It is more for balance and rhythm. Slow the kick down in speed and shorten the kick depth. Dropping the legs too low exacerbates the breathing problem because that position forces the head up. The breathing issue is all a matter of getting comfortable in the water as Jon pointed out. I am not a fan of kickboard drills for breathing practice (or kickboards at all but again a conversation for another day). To me its like a crutch and doesn't solve the comfort level issue for beginning swimmers. The actual body position with the board is not how you will be swimming. That's why I prefer the push off and glide method. If you think about the glide you will get your body in a much more natural position and shorten the time it takes to gain some confidence. Having said that, if the kickboard method is working for you then do it. There is no one answer that is right for everyone. If the hold for a late exhale and then breath in on the recovery works there is nothing wrong with that as a transitional approach. As you can extend the distance with good rhythm and gain some comfort the exhale will be less frantic and you will slow it down. It sounds like you have the right idea in your head. Now pool time and a little confidence in the water and I think you will b fine. Keep it up. |
| 2014-02-26 12:13 PM in reply to: Stuartap |
New user 234 New Hampshire | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Chris- I had the exact same problem with breathing. Now this is coming from a novice swimmer so take my comments with a grain of salt, but there were a couple of things that helped me. I was so wrapped up in my breathing I think I was hyperventilating. The 1st thing was to stop thinking about breathing. Unless you have a medical condition your body has been breathing on it's own for the last 43 years without your help. I really tried to think about anything else, your catch, pull, recovery, whatever. You're not going to forget to breathe. Just turn and breathe as naturally as best you can. The other thing that helped was much the same as your advice about pushing past your comfort zone while trying to run faster. If you can only go 100 yards without stopping to gasp for air push yourself to swim another 25 or 50 just don't stop. You have walls, lane dividers, and a shallow end to stand up in if you absolutely have too. You're not going to drown. Just my $.02. |
| 2014-02-26 5:21 PM in reply to: GoldenSprocket |
Master 3058 South Alabama | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Good discussion on swim breathing. When I turn to breathe I try to keep one eye under water and one above. Basically, split the goggles with the surface of the water. Keeps me from getting my head to high in the water and messing up body position in the water. Jason-have you been able to get a feel for the changes made to your bike in the recent fit? What about the TriRig brake? Treadmill run for me as we had nasty weather here today. 4 miles...longest run since December. Continuing the slow build. |
| 2014-02-26 7:10 PM in reply to: slornow |
| 194 , North Carolina | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED It's been a crazy week and a half for me... finally started back to work after being unemployed for a month or so and i think I forgot how hard it can be to juggle Tri and work... but I haven't missed a workout yet... but I can feel the performance suffering... especially on evening workouts. On other news... everyone has been waiting for the baby's gender, and we found out today we are having a GIRL!!! I'm kinda really a lot excited  and I'm already thinking about how I can get her to enjoy swimming, biking, and running ... with a pink bike, running shoes, and swim cap of course  |
| 2014-02-26 7:18 PM in reply to: triathlonpal07 |
Master 1779 | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Nathan- CONGRATULATIONS!! Girls are so much fun! |
| 2014-02-26 7:18 PM in reply to: triathlonpal07 |
Champion 7163 Verona WI--Ironman Bike Country! | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Originally posted by triathlonpal07 It's been a crazy week and a half for me... finally started back to work after being unemployed for a month or so and i think I forgot how hard it can be to juggle Tri and work... but I haven't missed a workout yet... but I can feel the performance suffering... especially on evening workouts. On other news... everyone has been waiting for the baby's gender, and we found out today we are having a GIRL!!! I'm kinda really a lot excited and I'm already thinking about how I can get her to enjoy swimming, biking, and running ... with a pink bike, running shoes, and swim cap of course Congratulations Nathan!!!! The pool I swam at today has these baby classes. Some of the tots are 2 months old. It's basically to get them comfortable moving from their stomachs to their backs (safety) and get them having fun, splashing a little. Very cute. I wish I had done that when I was that age. |
| 2014-02-26 7:30 PM in reply to: triathlonpal07 |
Master 3058 South Alabama | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Originally posted by triathlonpal07 It's been a crazy week and a half for me... finally started back to work after being unemployed for a month or so and i think I forgot how hard it can be to juggle Tri and work... but I haven't missed a workout yet... but I can feel the performance suffering... especially on evening workouts. On other news... everyone has been waiting for the baby's gender, and we found out today we are having a GIRL!!! I'm kinda really a lot excited and I'm already thinking about how I can get her to enjoy swimming, biking, and running ... with a pink bike, running shoes, and swim cap of course Great! Good news on several fronts. You will find a schedule that works for you. |
| 2014-02-26 7:59 PM in reply to: triathlonpal07 |
Extreme Veteran 990 Collierville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Originally posted by triathlonpal07 It's been a crazy week and a half for me... finally started back to work after being unemployed for a month or so and i think I forgot how hard it can be to juggle Tri and work... but I haven't missed a workout yet... but I can feel the performance suffering... especially on evening workouts. On other news... everyone has been waiting for the baby's gender, and we found out today we are having a GIRL!!! I'm kinda really a lot excited and I'm already thinking about how I can get her to enjoy swimming, biking, and running ... with a pink bike, running shoes, and swim cap of course Great news all around! Congratulations! |
| 2014-02-26 8:08 PM in reply to: 43YORook |
Extreme Veteran 990 Collierville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Originally posted by 43YORook Stuart- Thank you so much for some thoughts. I'll try to answer a few of your points and see if I can remember everything correctly. The instructor I am using is the aquatics director at a nearby Y. He swam in college and said he used to teach more kids but in recent years has switched to more focus on adults and, according to him, specifically triathletes. We have done some things similar to some of the things you have mentioned. In my first lesson he just watched me swim and, at the time, said he was pleasantly surprised (I'll bet he regrets that statement now). He did say at the time my head was too high and my kick was "too good". He said he was happy he didnt have to teach me how to kick but would actually have to teach me not to kick as a lot of my propulsion was coming from there. (Side note - I stink at pull buoy drills! I mean really stink) He also said I swim too fast almost all the time, except when I'm drowning... As for breathing; it is the slow steady exhale under water that is my big bugaboo right now. When I started I was doing the exhale and inhale on the turn, obviously terrible. We worked on some stationary breathing things and a lot of breathing work with the kickboard, both just kicking and kicking while adding in one arm stroke at a time, but still with the kickboard. Recently he has had me doing a catch up drill where I don't start my stroke with one arm until the other has returned to the glide position. My issue seems to be that on the exhale I cannot regulate a pressure that allows me to SLOWLY blow out the air. I have a point of no return from no air coming out at all to then when I build enough pressure it comes out all at once and I feel like I'm gasping by the time I turn for a breath. Not sure if that makes sense or not, if not let me know and I can try to explain it better. My current work around for this issue seems to be defaulting to holding my breath after first retunring to the face down position and then beginning my exhale prior to the turn for the start of the next breath. When it works right I can approach finishing my exhale just as my mouth clears the water line for the inhale. There have been a few times when this has actually started to feel rythmic (read only 50-75 meters at a time) and I have actually been able to regain control of my breath in a pool length. I know this technique is still wrong as I should never be holding my breath and I want to get it right now. This is all VERY frustrating! I have NEVER struggled so hard to pick up really any athletic endeavor. Chris I thought I'd throw my two cents in here, for what it's worth. I'm not a great swimmer, but I'm a hell of a lot better than when I started a couple years back! For me, the biggest gains have been made by just getting, and keeping, my butt in the pool. Swimming is all about technique, which is true, but when I started swimming, I thought I was in decent shape. I'd already run a half marathon...and I couldn't swim 50 yards without stopping. I kept at it, and took in all the info that I could: keeping your head down, learning bilateral breathing just about immediately so I never had to unlearn anything, keeping my hips up, high elbows, etc. I swam three days a week for most of last year, and now I've been swimming twice a week with a Master's class, which has made me a MUCH stronger swimmer than I was before. My whole body has changed; I have shoulders where I didn't have shoulders before! So, I can definitely relate to the frustration, but I took the same approach to swimming that I did running: real gains will not come in a day, week, or even a month. I came in nearly last in the swim in my first sprint tri, but then took 5 minutes off my time in that same race a year later, just missing the top 5. So, in summary, learn all the technique there is, get a coach or swim with great swimmers, but keep your butt in the pool. Again, just my two cents, take it or leave it! I hope it helps! |
| 2014-02-26 10:38 PM in reply to: WoodrowCall |
| 121 Grand Rapids, Michigan | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Nathan- Awesome news! Really excited for you, it is an amazing time. Enjoy it! To everyone on the swim thoughts...Thank you! I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the feedback, ideas and sharing of progress. My thought at this point is that I have myself a bit mentally messed up on this whole thing. I have always been very good at setting myself very specific starting and ending date goals and living up to them. I didn't really do that with swimming, I just said I'm going to learn how to do this. So, I am going to take off the rest of the week and hopefully make myself miss swimming. Whether I miss it or not, March is the month of the swim for me. I will start on Sunday working on some of the easy breathing drills that Stuart talked about and I know that I do have the ability to push myself further on each swim, so I will focus on that as well, thanks Kevin. Actually, the guy I have been working with said sometimes it is best to just go swim as many of you have said so I am thinking this next few weeks to do that will be a great opportunity. For those of you in the same part of the country as me, try to stay warm! I love winter and I am absolutely done with this insanity!!! 2nd snowiest winter of recorded history and tomorrow more windchills of -20 F. Ughh! Chris |
| 2014-02-26 11:24 PM in reply to: triathlonpal07 |
Extreme Veteran 1190 Silicon Valley | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Nathan that's great congratulations! But watch out, a little girl will, without fail, have daddy wrapped around her little finger before you know it! But then truth be told, dads are just fine with that. |
| 2014-02-27 5:32 AM in reply to: Stuartap |
New user 234 New Hampshire | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Originally posted by Stuartap Nathan that's great congratulations! But watch out, a little girl will, without fail, have daddy wrapped around her little finger before you know it! But then truth be told, dads are just fine with that. Ain't that the truth. Congrats Nathan and enjoy the ride. |
| 2014-02-27 6:54 AM in reply to: GoldenSprocket |
Veteran 976 New Hampshire | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Congrats Nathan. Get that rest in while you can, or get used to being tired. So I have the kid for a week solo and of course he gets a cold. Other kids at daycare had it, so he had to get it eventually. Zero sleep at night because he coughs himself awake, which meant not much sleep for me. I got 2 swims in so far this week, if I can get today and tomorrow swimming too I'd be pretty happy with how I was able to work things out for a week I thought was lost. |
| 2014-02-27 7:04 AM in reply to: Stuartap |
Master 3205 ann arbor, michigan | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Nathan. Awesome news. Daughters are pretty great. Of course mine is hitting puberty right now and tells me daily how much she hates me (mostly to see if she can get a reaction...) but still pretty great. Randy. So far so good on the bike fit. I have been doing a lot more of my trainer riding down in aero so that is a good sign. Much more comfortable with seemingly minimal aero penalty so it may be a win-win. The tri-rig brake sure looks cool. I haven't had the bike outside here in Michigan so I don't know how it works but it seems to grip the rim tightly when I pull the lever. Interestingly, I have to pull the lever all of the way to the bar to engage the pads. I think that something to do with the mechanism of the center pull brake means that you have to pull the lever further. Certainly much further than the standard caliper brake that is still on the rear of the bike. Swimming continues to be "off" for me. I have accepted it and am no longer fighting. I am going to simply concentrate on form and not worry so much about pace for awhile and see what happens. It is interesting that I can maintain a 1:34-35 pace pretty easily but I can't seem to get myself much faster. But I can cruise along at 1:35 all morning long. If I try to get in to the 1:20s, I am fighting the water and struggling. Did two "all-out" 100s today and went 1:26 for both of them. A month ago an all-out 100 had me in the 1:17-18 range, so something is not quite right..... Big weekend of work coming up. 48 out of the 72 hours stuck in the hospital and working hard. That sure messes with the training. |
| 2014-02-27 8:09 AM in reply to: wannabefaster |
Master 3058 South Alabama | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED In light of all the recent swim discussion I thought I would provide a little humor.....I know this is how I often feel.....Jason, sounds like you are having a bout of this as well. (mpiswim.jpg) Attachments ---------------- mpiswim.jpg (24KB - 3 downloads) |
| 2014-02-27 8:28 AM in reply to: slornow |
Master 3058 South Alabama | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Happy to say that almost half of my team made USAT All American status for the 2013 season. It was one of my goals and I'm pleased that I was able to achieve it. For All American status you have to complete at least three USAT sanctioned races and be in the top 5% of your AG. USAT calculates a score/rating for each racer in sanctioned races. Your top 3 scores are averaged to come up with your score for the year. The USAT scoring system is not perfect and there are plenty of people faster than I am that I ended up ranked higher than. But, I have kept up with my year end rating since I started to see how I progress each year.
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| 2014-02-27 8:29 AM in reply to: slornow |
Veteran 976 New Hampshire | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED But Randy you said you keep that one eye in the water, so that can't possibly be you. I need to get myself videoed while swimming. It'd probably make me vomit when I saw it, but it'd be a good vomit. Right now just swimming more has me constantly improving all the time, of course when you start from level 0 it's a bit easier to see improvements. |
| 2014-02-27 9:59 AM in reply to: slornow |
Master 3205 ann arbor, michigan | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Originally posted by slornow Happy to say that almost half of my team made USAT All American status for the 2013 season. It was one of my goals and I'm pleased that I was able to achieve it. For All American status you have to complete at least three USAT sanctioned races and be in the top 5% of your AG. USAT calculates a score/rating for each racer in sanctioned races. Your top 3 scores are averaged to come up with your score for the year. The USAT scoring system is not perfect and there are plenty of people faster than I am that I ended up ranked higher than. But, I have kept up with my year end rating since I started to see how I progress each year.
Randy, this is a total bummer for me. I finished top 5% in all three races I did in the US this year, but one of the races apparently is not USAT curtified/does not report to USAT, so no All-American status for me. I raced a fourth tri in Quebec but that is obviously not USAT either. I'm going to race about 10 times in 2014 so this won't happen again |
| 2014-02-27 10:01 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 1190 Silicon Valley | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Originally posted by slornow In light of all the recent swim discussion I thought I would provide a little humor.....I know this is how I often feel.....Jason, sounds like you are having a bout of this as well. Randy you are a lot cuter in the pool! AWESOME job on the results from 2013. Sounds like good leadership! Congratulations. Edited by Stuartap 2014-02-27 10:04 AM |
| 2014-02-27 10:46 AM in reply to: Stuartap |
Member 2098 Simsbury, Connecticut | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Congrats Nathan and congrats Randy!! Did I post yesterday? All the days are blurring together so forgive me if I repeat myself :D SICK of the treadmill so I picked yesterday - one of the coldest weeks of the winter - got my butt out of bed and left the house at 5:50am in the dark for an 8.5 mile run in 15F temps (and lit up like a christmas tree). Well there was no wind so there was that It felt good to run outside but my Brooks Utopia tights are NOT warm enough on their own to do that again. I ordered a pair of Craft tights and if that doesn't do it I'll layer up - because it really wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Sure my eyelashes froze as did the water I was carrying but at least there was no traffic and it was nice and quiet. Then I proceeded to have a 12 hour work day and got home at 11:30pm so today I'm running on fumes. Going to meet some friends at the Y for a quasi casual swim workout. Now you are all up to date. /back to work. |
| 2014-02-27 11:19 AM in reply to: slornow |
| Member 142 , Georgia | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Winter Group version 3-CLOSED Hit the road again for a 1.9 mile walk/run. Did a 90" and 30" run in the midst of that, so I'm slowly climbing the ladder. I do have a complaint with drivers though; do they know how to drive? When I was walking by a speed bump in the parking lot, some moron decided it would be a brilliant idea to go AROUND the speed bump through the parking spots. People do that all the time here (illegally too: failure to maintain a lane) One problem: I was in those parking spots he was going into. So for about 3 seconds, I was thinking he was gonna hit me because his turning radius was the size of Jupiter. I was about to bolt into the street and pray to God someone was paying attention to the road when he finally turned enough to go around me and keep going. I'm thinking that action classifies as reckless driving since it's willful negligence to maintain a lane resulting in reckless endangerment. If so I'm gonna run security down if I catch them and air out my concerns. It's a mix of city and state police here (at least 4 in total). It has to stop or someone is going to get hit in the lot. Almost got t-boned by someone on Monday riding my bike as well. Someone didn't look my direction before turning out onto a road in which I had right of way on, which they're required to yield on under state law. Had to lay down rubber to avoid a collision and she gave me a "REALLY?!" look, as if I'm the one being the idiot. *sigh* So an eventful week on my part learning that people don't memorize the rule book. In other news, I'm gonna be doing a one-hour time trial on Friday with my bike to see where I stack up thus far. Speeds keep saying I'm in the 11-12 range, so I'd how far best effort gets me. I may have to take Saturday completely off as a result since the ride may require a full weekend rest, but it'll be worthwhile. My weight is going back up as well for some reason, so I've started tracking my meals on TrainingPeaks to see what areas can be improved upon. |
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