Experior's Group - CLOSED (Page 5)

4 miles in the snow this morning.  There was about an inch on the roads when I was running.  It was really weird.  No traction and lots of crunching under foot.  Kind of felt like running on the beach, but MUCH colder!  Hoping to get a ride in on the trainer later this afternoon while I watch hockey.  My long run tomorrow isn't looking good....supposed to get a foot or so of snow today.

Scout

Looks like the end of outdoor training for quite awhile in Virginia... we are getting slammed hard.  Good day to watch Kona!  Don't forget... 4:30 on NBC (at least here).


Edited by juneapple 2009-12-19 7:53 AM






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Michael (and the rest of the crew),

As long as I'm cooped up this morning, might as well use the time to consider tweaks to the training plan.  I've been generally doing a long (for me) run on weekends and then one or two days of interval training on a treadmill during the week during lunch.  My approach has been to find a level of running that I can sustain for 4 miles or so and then every other 1/4 mile, increase the speed.  So, for example, my base speed is currently 7.2, I'll run .25 miles at that, and then pick it up to 7.6 for the next .25, then drop back to 7.2 for the next .25, etc.  So, three questions.  First, do I have approximately the right differential (e.g. 7.2 vs. 7.6) or should it be greater (like 7.0 vs. 7.8), two, is .25 mile the "right" interval, and three, should the intervals be equal?

I've got a Garman 205.  My BIL talked me into two things when I started to think more seriously about Triathlons... one was upgrading my bike from the mountain bike to a road bike and second was getting the Garman.  Both were really good calls.  I absolutely love the Garman and it has helped my running and race management so much.  Since it determines your pace and location via GPS, you can run whenever and wherever you want and know your pace and distance.  I couldn't believe what a difference this made to me for training.  For example, you can have several screens of data... one of mine shows current pace, pace for current mile, overall pace, and overall distance.  It can automatically set your lap distance to a mile, so you don't even have to keep track of that.  During the Richmond 1/2 Mary, it really helped me keep a steady pace and run a smart race... something I just couldn't do before (I can't really tell if I'm running a 8:30 min mile or a 10 min mile).  It's great for the biking too, though at this point I'm more into x distance at y total time on the bike and not thinking about the pace as much.  Not really sure why.

Before the Garman, I just used my Timex watch which allowed me to time laps and I ran on courses where I knew the distance.  I thought that was just peachy until I got the Garman.  I'm really not a gadget guy... I just like to go out and run or bike, but I'm really sold on having this kind of information while you run now that I've used it.  The Nike/IPod stuff looks pretty nice too.

Thanks, btw, for the info on the Miami race.  I might just try to arrange it so I can do that one... looks like a fun venue!
-Stu

Bonus points for intrepid running!  Nice job getting out there.  Around here it is just cold rain.  I ran in it yesterday.  Fortunately, there's no running for me on tap today.  I really hate cold rain.

I did a 10 mile run last Sunday in the cold rain..It was about 30 and raining the whole time.  It really sucked for the first mile or two.  Then I was wet and couldn't get wetter, so I was resigned to the fact that I was going to be uncomfortable.  I was actually trying to get to 13, but my legs were getting numb from the cold and wet.  I didn't take that as a good thing and cut it a llittle short.

Big +1 on the Garmin.  I also have the 205 and I absolutely love it.  I don't like to run on a TM, and it is a huge help with interval runs.  Plus, you can program a workout into it, so when I was doing my 1/4 mile repeats earlier this week, I had the workout set to yelp at me when it was time to start and stop an interval.  It really takes the guesswork out  of it.

Scout

Alright, I'm cooped up too.  Actually, I'm sitting in my kitchen making cheese, which takes forever, so I'll hop back and forth between the cheese pot and the laptop for this little essay.  I'll call it "What I've learned about interval training", for your pleasure and torture...  (Warning:  the fact that I'm an academic will now be made painfully obvious.)

Training Adaptations

First, let's break down training adaptations into three:  increased VO2max, increased lactate threshhold (LT), increased efficiency.  Some rough definitions -- we don't need precise definitions for present purposes:  VO2max is a measure of how much oxygen you can USE; LT is a measure of how hard you can push for an extended time, like an hour or so (i.e., without generating an accumulation of lactate in your muscles, which will force you to slow down); efficiency relates the previous two things to actual performance (speed) -- it is a measure of how fast you can go for a given level of effort, i.e., how efficiently you are using the power that you generate.

It is widely accepted that VO2max can be increased very quickly, and more or less plateaus after only about 6 months of training.  During that 6 months, it can increase quite a bit, then not so much -- and it actually decreases with age a bit as well.  Sorry -- nothing we can do about that!  LT plateaus much later, after years, not months, of consistent training.  Efficiency does not plateau -- there is always room for improvement.

Intervals

Intervals allow one to spend more time at higher intensity.  Example:  Let's suppose that your all-out, no holds barred, 5-minute bike effort is 300 watts -- can hold that for 5 minutes, and then you collapse.  So if you had some good reason to workout at that level of intensity (more on why you might want to do that below), you'd get 5 minutes and be done.  But if you did a series of intervals, say, 1 minute on, 1 minute off, you'd be able to continue much longer, maybe up to 30 minutes or so, and then you'd get 15 minutes at that higher intensity.  Much better.

I am aware of three main physiological reasons that you'd want to do very hard efforts while training.  The first, and probably most important, is because there are huge benefits to VO2max that are achieved by working close to your (current) VO2max.  Once your VO2max has plateaued, however, this benefit is largely eliminated.  (This isn't entirely true -- there are seasonal changes to VO2max -- it does go down during periods of less training; intervals would be a good way to boost it back up again.)  The second main reason to do very hard efforts is to improve your ability to maintain a hard effort in the face of lactate accumulation.  For something like an IM, this ability is irrelevant -- if you are accumulating lactate at any point in the race, then you are toast.  But it could be useful for sprints.  The third reason is to build strength.

In order to be effective at achieving these three things, the intervals need to be hard and short.  Rest time could be anywhere from equal to twice the interval.  You will not achieve all of those benefits (especially the second) if you rest longer than that.  If you are resting less than the time of the interval, then you aren't going hard enough in the interval and again, then, you aren't achieving the whole point of doing the intervals in the first place.

Note that I said 'physiological' reasons above.  I think that there are two other reasons to do intervals.  First, they are fun, in a masochistic sort of way.  Second, I find a great psychological benefit.  Whenever I do a very hard effort, the easier efforts just feel so much easier.  I can't tell you how many times I've done something like this:  run 2 miles at an easy pace; then do some really hard efforts; then cool down for a mile.  That last mile FEELS easy and slow, and then I find out that it was actually much faster than I thought it was.  That's purely anecdotal from my experience, though.

Back to the science.  The second type of adaptation that I mentioned above (improving LT) is not achieved by these short hard intervals, but by longer intervals and steady state training.  One of the really important things that is going on, here, is the synthesis of mitochondria in the muscles.  It is the lack of these mitochondria that is a huge limiter for endurance athletes -- they allow all of that oxygen rich blood that your newly minted big strong heart (which you got after just 6 months of consistent training) to be USED.  (It is well documented that in even moderately trained people, it is the inability to use the oxygen, not the inability to deliver the oxygen, that slows us down.)  Other things are happening too, such as the conversion of type IIb muscle fibers to type IIa, which are more resistant to fatigue.

Anyway, you can achieve these benefits with either steady-state exercise at a moderate effort (which should be your bread and butter workout) or longer intervals (10-20 minutes) at a fairly hard effort (what you could hold, but only barely, for an hour -- if you want greater precision, then I'd suggest doing a LT test; these intervals would then be done at around your LT heartrate).

Now, as for how often one should do these things, well, that's a harder question to answer, and the answer will be different at different stages of the season.  You do want to be careful, because too much intensity can easily lead to injury or burnout.  As I said above, steady state should be your bread and butter workout at most periods of the season.

Summary

* Do short (30 second to 3 minute) intervals mainly to strengthen your cardiovascular system.  These should be very hard -- a rest period of at least the length of the interval should be REQUIRED to make the next bout of intensity even possible, but don't rest more than twice the length of the interval.  The difference between the interval effort and the rest effort should be huge.  (Example:  I occasionally do running intervals where I'll go 2 laps around the track in a few ticks under 3:00, then one rest lap that takes around 2:30, so changing from <6:00/mile pace to 10:00/mile pace.)  You should finish a session like this saying things that you would not want your children to hear.

* Do longer (10-20 minute) intervals to induce improvements in the skeletal muscles.  The rest interval can be relatively short, like 5 minutes.  The effort should be hard but not debilitating -- what you could hold for an hour with a gun to your head.  A total of 40-60 minutes of interval time is a good target, but you'll reap benefits from ANY appreciable amount of time that you spend at these efforts, so if 3x20minutes is not on for you right now, do 2x10; it will help.  You should finish a session like this feelign tired but not utterly spent.  You should feel like you could do another interval (but don't!).  If you are sore the next day, then you probably overdid it.  Getting the pacing right on these is tough.  When you figure out the secret to it, call me!

* Do NEITHER of these things as your regular workout.  Your regular workout should be steady state.  When you finish, you should feel like you could do it again.




Edited by Experior 2009-12-19 12:06 PM

I lived in DC for a while and remember getting pretty annoyed at folks' inability to drive or walk in the snow.  An inch of snow on the ground and it was total chaos!

Stu- that photo is incredible.  I can't imagine your city/county having a large fleet of snowplows...is the northern half of VA just shut down at present?

Michael, thanks for the great post on interval training. 

Wow, you guys are getting creamed by that snow. And to think I wimped out on my ride this AM because it was windy and 50 degrees.

Michael, the info on interval training is great, and very useful for me right now. I have a March Oli that I want to really attack and I think doing more intense, interval training is gonna help me build the speed I need.

Michael,

The interval information is *FANTASTIC* and I really appreciate your academic, background info/context first, approach.  Since I've joined BT, I'm learning that I really don't know squat about training, and that though I've been doing a decent job getting in general shape, I have alot of room for improvement by improving training and sport techniques.  While I thought I've been "serious" about my training up to now, I really haven't been... which is both exciting (wow... I still have lots of room for improvement even at age 50) and intimidating (I should do what?  I should put in how much time?  Nutrition, huh?). 

Anyway, much appreciated.  I'll start modifying my interval training starting after Christmas.  I had been getting some measurable improvement from my intervals (which seem kind of like the 2nd type), but I'm eager to try the more extreme differential ones.  I also have a better sense of what my spinning instructors are doing now too!

The snow has continued, though lighter... we're up around 2 feet now.  Will post an updated picture tomorrow when it is totally over.  We're at the end of a dirt road in a rural county.  The last time we had a storm like this, school was canceled for over two weeks.  However, we actually all manage pretty well in the country.  Lots of tractors, trucks, etc. to get around.  In town, like in Northern Virginia/DC, everything shuts down with a little snow, and this is a completely different category than we're used to.  We have 4WD, so I think I'll be able to get out on Monday if I take is easy.  Definitely will have a white Christmas.  For those of you who remain in the path of the storm, get on home.  We had 100 stranded on route 29 last night.  My wife was almost one of them because she waited a little too long to leave work.  Take care out there!
-Stu

Michael, thanks for the info on interval training.  I know that's what I have to start incorporating into my training plan to get faster, rather than just the long slow ride/run.

Stu, so sorry about the deck, can't imagine, ok maybe I can we're going to Utah for Christmas.

Rode outside today, it's beautiful here.  Before you all start pelting me with oranges, just put Tour de Palm Springs (Feb 13) on your calendar and come join me. 

I'm glad the info is useful.

Wow.  That's a lot of snow.  That picture reminds me of winters in Wisconsin when I was growing up.  Drive carefully!

I'm off to the pool.  I've had a really rough time getting a full swim workout in this week.  Wish me luck!

Oh, and don't forget that Kona is on TV today at 4:30 (at least around these parts).  Should be a good motivator!

i may have to meet you out in the desert. i am considering do that ride. i have heard that it is a blast.

I think that Stu's snow is a little deeper, but here's the look out my patio door.  The table top to the bottom of the umbrella is about 2 feet...

This picture reminds me when I lived in the Upper Peninula of Michigan.  We used to get tons of snow each year so much I could walk up the snow bank in the back of the house from the wind directly onto the roof.  Feel blessed to live in Oregon where we get snow and freezing rain every once in awhile to break up the boredom and make things alittle interesting and then it back to rain and normality.

Will be running about 6 to 6.5 miles tomorrow. Hopefully the rain holds off just enough to get it in.  Did a 90 min. Indoor cycling class this morning at the gym.  Tough one.

Did everybody enjoy the Kona coverage?  It helped get me through my bike intervals today....

Which also prompts me to add one thing to what I wrote above about intervals -- frequency is very sport-specific.  You can afford to do them pretty much every time you swim.  You can afford to do them quite a bit on the bike.  You cannot afford to do them too frequently running.  That's a path to injury.  How frequent is too frequent?  That depends on the individual.  The miles that you've run in your lifetime matters.  The miles per week that you are currently running matters.  And some people are just more injury-prone than others.  So be careful with running intervals -- be conservative at first (not with the intervals, but with how frequently you do them), and listen to your body.

Have a good rest of the weekend everyone.  I'll be away from computers for the next 24 hours.

You're safe from oranges... snowballs, on the other hand ;-)

It's beautiful out there this morning, hopefully I'll be able to get out later today to help my in-laws dig out.  Gonna be an interesting next few weeks.

I'm such a newb. I watched Kona yesterday. I had a hard time sleeping last night and I'm a 49 year old male. I can't believe I got so geeked up.

Will, Tour de PS is a lot of fun.  Very casual start, high school band plays a song they let a bunch of people start, play another song another bunch goes.  I have only done the 55 mile route a few times, I would like to do 100+ but need some more training time.  You can register that morning which is worth a few extra dollars in case it's windy out there (wind=major sandblasting).  They also allow aerobars.
Melinda

Pretty motivating stories at Kona.  Suppose to do a long-run today, but it is pretty wet outside; may have to just brave the elements and get'er dun.  I'll have to keep an eye out for breaks in the weather or maybe go and purchase a running jacket for the wet weather.  I wouldn't want to get sick right before X-MAS would I...... 

Yeah, it's great, isn't it!  They did a nice job with balancing the pros with the age-grouper/human interest.  About an hour in, I always feel like it is two different shows... "the race" and "the story"... and then the pros start struggling in the run, former champions searching for shade under a telephone pole, leaders limping and cramping, and then it hits you... they've all got stories.  1800 stories all hurdling toward a goal that started years earlier, not at dawn the day of the race.  Rudy and the woman who came back from a stroke were the two that did me in this year.  And then there are the passing interviews that hit you later, like the 79 year old guy who was working on #20... and then later that night, wham! like a ton of bricks... 79!!!!  20 straight iron man finishes... are you kidding me????  I was also struck by the intensity of the look on Alexander's face at the finish and how it contrasted with Wellington's ever-present smile.  Alexander looked so relaxed on the run... but at the end... woah, what an Ironman look in the eyes.  Both ran amazing races.  Incredible.  Just incredible.  But my favorite part every year are the pictures of the age group finishers... hands raises in victory, smiles on their faces, relief and joy in a triumph of a lifetime.

If you haven't yet done so, take a few hours and read some of the race reports on BT from this year's race.  And somewhere in these mentor groups are several future Kona finishers.  Someone who was overweight and out of shape and decided on a different path... and finds himself/herself hurdling towards Kona.

Edited by juneapple 2009-12-20 12:42 PM

Was able to get my long run in this afternoon between showers.  Right when I got back it started to pour down again.  Someone is looking out for me.  Ran about 6 miles at an average 9:47 pace which is pretty good for me.  Training for a
10K on the 17th of Jan; goal is to break 1 hour which I believe I can do right now, but you never know on race day. 

Right now I am going to go out to the local Sports Authority Store and pick up another pair of running shoes.  They have a sale on Asics 2140's for about $70.00.  I wear 4eee width and my second pair of running shoes (Asics Gel Cumulus) are just to narrow for me to run in.  My small toenail actually turned black and just fell off from my Sprint Tri in early Sept.  Need a wider pair.

Anyone have any thoughts on the Asics 2140's?  I believe the were rated as a best buy by Runner's World in Spring 2009.

Edited by TriGuyBri 2009-12-20 4:54 PM

I had a pair of 2130's and loved them.  Went to buy another and found the 2130's discontinued and replaced with 2140's.  I bought the 2140's and loved them too.  Now I got an em from my LRS that the 2140's are being replaced with 2150's.  My understanding is that the changes are very very insignificant and that it's basically the same shoe.  I currently have a pair of Saucony's because I got a great deal on them at an expo.  When these are done, I'll go back to the Aasics.  I think they are great shoes.

Scout

I'd say that a 1 hour 10K is in the bag, given your training times.  Nice going!

I wore Asics for a while, and liked them a lot.  I'm transitioning to very low cushion shoes (for no other reason than that I'm intrigued by the idea, and I like having less weight on my feet), so no more Asics, but I definitely liked them, and $70 is a good price.

My second toenail has fallen off more times than I can recall.  I guess it comes with the territory...

I was thinking the same thing about the 1 hr. 10K goal.  I'll see where I am at prior to race time and set a goal that will test and push me some.  I want to stay with Asics as well.  I like them alot.  Unfortunately Spts Auth. didn't ahve much in stock so I am going to the Local Running Store Downtown and use my 10% off for being a Tri Club member and see what they have.  It may mean buying a more expensive shoe, but at least I'll being buying local, supporting local and buying from a sponser of our Tri Club.