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| BT Development | Mentor Program Archives » Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! | Rss Feed  |
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 2011-05-03 5:51 AM in reply to: #3478882 |
Champion  7233    |  Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL!sesh - 2011-05-02 9:03 PM wannabefaster - 2011-05-02 10:00 PM sesh - 2011-05-02 5:10 PM Ok.... running cadence questions... sort of... The nuts and bolts of cadence, which I don't think anyone else has answered: Count the number of times your right (or left-you choose) foot hits the ground in one minute of running--I find this easier to do on a treadmill with the time display right in front of you- and this will give you the number of leg turnovers per minute. Most people seem to think that good, efficient runners have cadences in the high 80s to mid 90s, or approximately 180 steps/minute (if you are counting both feet). I have read in several places that you will rarely, or never?, see world-class runners much outside of this range. When I do this, I am consistently running at a cadence of 95-100, no matter what my pace is, from 7 mph all the way up to 10 mph. It is just how I run and fairly unusual as it seems as most people tend to have slower, not faster, cadences. The thing about higher cadence running for me is that I feel like my feet are not hitting the ground as hard. They are really just skimming (or tapping) the ground as my body moves over them. Higher cadence definitely requires a shorter stride. It seems to reduce the stress on the knee and ankle joints considerably. Hope that helps. Others can jump in and correct me if I am totally off base with this. JasonA lady that's helping me coach a beginner tri program (I pretty much only do the swim) was talking about running cadence and that most everyone's turn over is way to low. I pretty much plod along wishing I was swimming or biking. So really, I'm just wondering... runners, explain running cadence to me and how exactly I can work on it. Good stuff! Basically, I need the same cadence and my stride length is different for certain paces? Not same stride length with different cadences for different paces? Am I on the right track? A little of both. "most" people will not have quite as fast of a cadence at lower speeds. The number quoted for elite runners (not just on this thread), is often not as feasible at slower paces for most people. And with stride length, it should lengthen out a bit on the push off part, but not out in front of you. |
| 2011-05-03 7:39 AM in reply to: #3436046 |
Regular 93 Knoxville, TN | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! I hit the pool yesterday for the first time in years....I swam 500 yards and was concentrating on my form and breathing and for some reason, my neck started hurting..-why is that??? I can breathe fine on my right side but when I try to breathe left...I get all freaked out and start to sink a bit. I currently stuggle with bilateral breathing. 1st 100 all freestyle, then switched 50 breast/50 freestyle. my endurance is terrible in the water first swim out. finished off with a short 1.5 mile jog around a unpaved path... felt tired but good afterwards. |
| 2011-05-03 8:12 AM in reply to: #3478892 |
| Member 55 Ontario, Canada | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! sesh - 2011-05-02 11:10 PM Jewel22 - 2011-05-02 8:30 PM nickgn71 - 2011-05-02 9:25 PM My swim instructor says that slowing down is the hardest thing to do for swimmers, but ultimately allows you to have the most efficient stroke. One thing I am good at doing is slowing down intentionally ... I have to do it all the time with the inline in order to practice technique and for whatever reason I'm able to do so swimming. Now I don't know if it's slow enough to really practice swimming form but it is slower. Going "slow" allows you to work on form. My "slow" at the moment is 13-14 strokes per length at about a 1:30/100 yd pace. This stroke count and pace is a comfort zone that I can swim all day at, and work on various things within my technique. To swim harder sets I simply increase my stroke count (see my set of 4x100 negative splits from today for example). The idea is that over time, the stroke count per length goes down at that same 1:30 pace... or another way to look at it... the pace at my 13-14 stroke count gets faster. Once general form and comfort in the water is established, everybody has their "slow." Which really is a bad word to simply describe the stroke count and pace that allows you to work on your technique. Thanks for the info. I've not even attempted to figure out my stroke count as I'm still at the very start of this learning curve. But I'm sure that will come in time as I progress in my swimming. Edited by Jewel22 2011-05-03 8:13 AM |
| 2011-05-03 8:57 AM in reply to: #3479215 |
Champion 5117 Brandon, MS | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! rrobinette - 2011-05-03 7:39 AM I hit the pool yesterday for the first time in years....I swam 500 yards and was concentrating on my form and breathing and for some reason, my neck started hurting..-why is that??? I can breathe fine on my right side but when I try to breathe left...I get all freaked out and start to sink a bit. I currently stuggle with bilateral breathing. 1st 100 all freestyle, then switched 50 breast/50 freestyle. my endurance is terrible in the water first swim out. finished off with a short 1.5 mile jog around a unpaved path... felt tired but good afterwards. You might be lifting your head up when you breathe on the left. Probably tensing up the neck when you go that way because of the sinking feeling. My advice, and it's worked for some swimmers I've taught, is for now only to breathe on one side. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Learn to swim "correct" first. Then learn to breathe on the opposite side later. It's a great skill to have, but by no means is it necessary. I can comfortably breathe to the left, but I am faster when breathing to the right. It's just more comfortable. There's no reason for me to force myself to bilateral breathe just to do it. Now, I'll do it if a situation (waves, another person, sighting) calls for it. |
| 2011-05-03 8:59 AM in reply to: #3479072 |
Champion 5117 Brandon, MS | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! newbz - 2011-05-03 5:51 AM sesh - 2011-05-02 9:03 PM A little of both. "most" people will not have quite as fast of a cadence at lower speeds. The number quoted for elite runners (not just on this thread), is often not as feasible at slower paces for most people. And with stride length, it should lengthen out a bit on the push off part, but not out in front of you. Good stuff! Basically, I need the same cadence and my stride length is different for certain paces? Not same stride length with different cadences for different paces? Am I on the right track? This seems so simple but I've never actually heard it. Light bulb moment. Hope the rain stops today. I'm planning a really short run just to work on some of this. Thanks! |
| 2011-05-03 9:11 AM in reply to: #3479285 |
Champion 5117 Brandon, MS | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! Jewel22 - 2011-05-03 8:12 AM sesh - 2011-05-02 11:10 PM
Thanks for the info. I've not even attempted to figure out my stroke count as I'm still at the very start of this learning curve. But I'm sure that will come in time as I progress in my swimming. It's not a bad thing to know even when first starting out. It can be an eye opener for sure. Kick drill, pull drills, then some swimming where you try and put it together is a good place to start. Nice "wispy" legs on the kick. Straight, but not locked knees. Pointed, but not flexed, feet. Good hip rotation. Almost like kicking with your thighs. Pull with a pull buoy. Really get focused on rotating those shoulders. It'll help you get that elbow up on the pull so you aren't "windmilling" the arms. Get that palm and forearm pushing the water straight behind you and focus on pulling with your back muscles. Keep those hands nice and relaxed, the head down, and reeeeaaaaaach without crossing over in front of you. That's a lot of stuff yes, but focus on one each time you get in the pool. And when you get to the part where you're just swimming, count those strokes. Finally, not only is that a good place to start, it's a good place to always be. You just modify it the more advanced you get. |
| 2011-05-03 10:41 AM in reply to: #3479418 |
Regular 93 Knoxville, TN | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! Thank you...I'm swimming again on Wednesday...I'll work on my breathing on the right...is it best to breathe every stroke or every other stroke? |
| 2011-05-03 11:13 AM in reply to: #3479672 |
Champion 5117 Brandon, MS | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! rrobinette - 2011-05-03 10:41 AM Thank you...I'm swimming again on Wednesday...I'll work on my breathing on the right...is it best to breathe every stroke or every other stroke? It's best to breathe whatever is "normal." At a relaxed pace in training, my need for O2 isn't as great as it is in a race. So I don't breathe every right stroke all the time in training. Sometimes in training I do breathe ever right stroke. In a race I do it almost exclusively. Watch the pros on an IM swim. Nearly all of them are every stroke. Basically, it just boils down keeping my breathing as normal as possible. Normal being how I'd be breathing exerting the same effort on a bike or running (well, maybe not my gasping when I run). More exertion, more need to inhale and exhale "faster." Now yes, a breath stroke is not as streamlined as a normal stroke. However, as triathletes that have to get out of the water then bike and run, any time (pace) you lose because of the small amount of extra drag is negated because of less O2. In other words, you get more tired and slow down, or you get out of the water in worse shape to bike and run. It's a balancing act to get you out of the water quickly, but efficiently, and ready to ride. In a swim only competition, it gets boiled down to a science as to how many breaths they plan to take, when they are going to take them, etc. We aren't technicians, we're triathletes. Just breathe whenever you got to  |
| 2011-05-03 11:15 AM in reply to: #3478882 |
Master 3205 ann arbor, michigan | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! Good stuff! Basically, I need the same cadence and my stride length is different for certain paces? Not same stride length with different cadences for different paces? Am I on the right track? Exactly what nwbz said above. Like I said, my cadence is increadbly consistent from low to high speed, unless I get really, really slow. All of my increased stride length is behind me, in the push off. No matter how fast I am trying to run, I concentrate on my foot landing under my center of gravity (well, I don't relly need to concentrate on it any more, but it took a loooong time and a lot of work to get to the point where I don't have to think about it all the time.) Edited by wannabefaster 2011-05-03 11:20 AM |
| 2011-05-03 1:39 PM in reply to: #3479746 |
Champion 5117 Brandon, MS | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! wannabefaster - 2011-05-03 11:15 AM Exactly what nwbz said above. Like I said, my cadence is increadbly consistent from low to high speed, unless I get really, really slow. All of my increased stride length is behind me, in the push off. No matter how fast I am trying to run, I concentrate on my foot landing under my center of gravity (well, I don't relly need to concentrate on it any more, but it took a loooong time and a lot of work to get to the point where I don't have to think about it all the time.) Always been my problem working on running. Time to quit whining and just work at it. Thanks for the help. I think having something to work on, as opposed to just mile after mile because I've signed up for a race will help a lot. |
| 2011-05-03 1:45 PM in reply to: #3479453 |
| Member 55 Ontario, Canada | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! sesh - 2011-05-03 10:11 AM Jewel22 - 2011-05-03 8:12 AM sesh - 2011-05-02 11:10 PM
Thanks for the info. I've not even attempted to figure out my stroke count as I'm still at the very start of this learning curve. But I'm sure that will come in time as I progress in my swimming. It's not a bad thing to know even when first starting out. It can be an eye opener for sure. Kick drill, pull drills, then some swimming where you try and put it together is a good place to start. Nice "wispy" legs on the kick. Straight, but not locked knees. Pointed, but not flexed, feet. Good hip rotation. Almost like kicking with your thighs. Pull with a pull buoy. Really get focused on rotating those shoulders. It'll help you get that elbow up on the pull so you aren't "windmilling" the arms. Get that palm and forearm pushing the water straight behind you and focus on pulling with your back muscles. Keep those hands nice and relaxed, the head down, and reeeeaaaaaach without crossing over in front of you. That's a lot of stuff yes, but focus on one each time you get in the pool. And when you get to the part where you're just swimming, count those strokes. Finally, not only is that a good place to start, it's a good place to always be. You just modify it the more advanced you get. Thanks, next time I swim, I'll work on one of those things. Probably the kicking to start. I was told my kicks were stellar when I was taking lessons ... but since I stopped the lessons and without anyone critiquing I obviously changed my kicking. And I will count the strokes, it'll be interesting to see what my count is. |
| 2011-05-03 8:35 PM in reply to: #3436046 |
Master 3205 ann arbor, michigan | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! Tonight was a 20 minute Time Trial on the bike/computrainer per my new coach's request. This hurt me badly. I went to a painful place but managed to suck it up and finished. Averaged 242 watts with an average HR of 167. I was hoping to do a little better but the numbers don't lie. The puddles of sweat under the bike were pretty impressive. There were clearly not enough/any fans on. Now hopefully there is some data to base my future workouts on. I am thinking of buying a power meter. Does anyone here have one or have thoughts about using one for training. I am typically tech-phobic, but if it is a tool that will realy help, I could be persuaded to take the plunge. Your opinions, if you have them, would be appreciated. Jason |
| 2011-05-03 11:26 PM in reply to: #3480788 |
Expert 1179 Kansas City, Missouri | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! wannabefaster - 2011-05-03 6:35 PM Tonight was a 20 minute Time Trial on the bike/computrainer per my new coach's request. This hurt me badly. I went to a painful place but managed to suck it up and finished. Averaged 242 watts with an average HR of 167. I was hoping to do a little better but the numbers don't lie. The puddles of sweat under the bike were pretty impressive. There were clearly not enough/any fans on. Now hopefully there is some data to base my future workouts on. I am thinking of buying a power meter. Does anyone here have one or have thoughts about using one for training. I am typically tech-phobic, but if it is a tool that will realy help, I could be persuaded to take the plunge. Your opinions, if you have them, would be appreciated. Jason Training w/ power on the bike is like training w/ a HRM for the run. Once you do it, it's hard not to use it anymore. I had a problem gauging my bike leg last season and blew up bad one race, went too easy the next race, then got a PM and had no more problems knowing where the sweet spot was for anything cycling related. It was immensely helpful on a century ride I did a few months back. It's a good metric to study post ride also. WKO+ (software) can tell you a -ton about your rides. The cheapest option is a Powertap, crank based systems (Quarq and SRM) are more costly. The trade off is w/ a Powertap you only get one wheel w/ the powermeter on it. Crank based systems give you the option to run any wheelset you want, anytime. The option I chose previously was a Wheelbuilder HED Powertap wheel with disc cover for racing. Pretty cost effective solution. WKO will run you about $125 these days and if you already have an ANT+ head unit, all the powermeters will pair with it and you won't need to purchase a separate bike computer. |
| 2011-05-04 7:36 AM in reply to: #3436046 |
Regular 51 Cairns - Australia | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! On my recovery week, had a 900 metre swim which seemed to go quickly. Was supposed to ride today but got busy with things so will do in the morning followed by a 5 km run and another swim in the arvo. |
| 2011-05-04 7:43 AM in reply to: #3436046 |
| Member 55 Ontario, Canada | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! I was planning on a run this morning, then a swim this afternoon but I woke up sick, sick, sick. Sore throat, brutal headache, stuffy sinuses, achy body and general malaise. All I managed was some stretches which tapped my strength. Day off and back to bed. |
| 2011-05-04 8:41 AM in reply to: #3480788 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! wannabefaster - 2011-05-03 7:35 PM Tonight was a 20 minute Time Trial on the bike/computrainer per my new coach's request. This hurt me badly. I went to a painful place but managed to suck it up and finished. Averaged 242 watts with an average HR of 167. I was hoping to do a little better but the numbers don't lie. The puddles of sweat under the bike were pretty impressive. There were clearly not enough/any fans on. Now hopefully there is some data to base my future workouts on. I am thinking of buying a power meter. Does anyone here have one or have thoughts about using one for training. I am typically tech-phobic, but if it is a tool that will realy help, I could be persuaded to take the plunge. Your opinions, if you have them, would be appreciated. Jason I've trained with power for a number of years (currently do not), and coach two athletes that both use it. I've also trained with it for years with rowing. Power, unlike RPE and HR, does not lie. It does not show you how you are feeling(RPE), or how your body is reacting to work (HR), it shows you the work IT IS DOING. Having the numbers in front of you can be good, or bad depending on you. If you train with a coach that knows what to do with them you'll be in a good place. It takes a lot of hte guesswork out of intervals and pacing. Unlike with a HRM it is not going ot be effected by caffeine, heat, lack of sleep, or anything else. It's just the work being done. it should also teach to you ignore speed in training, and focus on power output (ie work being done). I trained with an SRM for a number of years but am currently training without, and am enjoying thigns a bit more (i also just bought my first watch ever this year and only use it for faster workouts outside of tracking total time so take this from my point of view). Powertap is a great option, and put into a training wheel with a wheel cover will give you a very cost effective training and racing wheel. |
| 2011-05-04 1:07 PM in reply to: #3436046 |
Regular 93 Knoxville, TN | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! psyched about my upcoming afternoon swim!!! It's windy as crap outside and a bit cold but thankfully no rain today...but no matter, I'll be indoors in a wonderful pool swimming laps!!! |
| 2011-05-04 7:32 PM in reply to: #3481205 |
Regular 51 Cairns - Australia | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! Jewel22 - 2011-05-04 11:43 PM I was planning on a run this morning, then a swim this afternoon but I woke up sick, sick, sick. Sore throat, brutal headache, stuffy sinuses, achy body and general malaise. All I managed was some stretches which tapped my strength. Day off and back to bed. I hope you get well soon nothing worse than being sick, and it is best to rest than train. |
| 2011-05-04 7:57 PM in reply to: #3482622 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! lizmoll - 2011-05-04 6:32 PM Jewel22 - 2011-05-04 11:43 PM I was planning on a run this morning, then a swim this afternoon but I woke up sick, sick, sick. Sore throat, brutal headache, stuffy sinuses, achy body and general malaise. All I managed was some stretches which tapped my strength. Day off and back to bed. I hope you get well soon nothing worse than being sick, and it is best to rest than train. agreed! Feel better soon! |
| 2011-05-05 6:04 AM in reply to: #3436046 |
Regular 51 Cairns - Australia | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! Today I rode up a hill near our house called 'Copperlode Hill' I decided as I only had an 18km bike I would do this. I rode to the first lookout which climbs to 176m then went back to the bottom and did it again. My legs felt fine it is the breathing that knocks me about. I then rode home and ran 5km off the bike, a bit slow to start but was good once I got going. This is the first time I've ran off the bike for months and thought it's time to start with race day 4 weeks away. Does anyone run off the bike all the time even for a short time?? |
| 2011-05-05 8:34 AM in reply to: #3483024 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! lizmoll - 2011-05-05 5:04 AM Today I rode up a hill near our house called 'Copperlode Hill' I decided as I only had an 18km bike I would do this. I rode to the first lookout which climbs to 176m then went back to the bottom and did it again. My legs felt fine it is the breathing that knocks me about. I then rode home and ran 5km off the bike, a bit slow to start but was good once I got going. This is the first time I've ran off the bike for months and thought it's time to start with race day 4 weeks away. Does anyone run off the bike all the time even for a short time?? I almost never do unless i'm testing out pacing/nutrition for something. I'd rather get in to higher quality workouts with some rest in between than have one suffer because i'm already tired. Now that said, if your training levels allow it you'll be fine doing that. This is a pretty hot topic right now with people on one side defending and bringing up the point that there is no real correlation between training like that and a bette rrun, and the other side saying you always have to train how you race. |
| 2011-05-05 10:18 AM in reply to: #3436046 |
| Member 55 Ontario, Canada | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! Thanks lizmoll & Newbz ... I'm definitely taking it easy, really easy. I actually feel a little better today but except for stretching I'm taking today off as well. I'm hoping this virus or whatever it is will play itself out by the weekend. We're supposed to have some nice weather and I want to get back at it. |
| 2011-05-05 2:02 PM in reply to: #3483024 |
Champion 5117 Brandon, MS | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! lizmoll - 2011-05-05 6:04 AM Today I rode up a hill near our house called 'Copperlode Hill' I decided as I only had an 18km bike I would do this. I rode to the first lookout which climbs to 176m then went back to the bottom and did it again. My legs felt fine it is the breathing that knocks me about. I then rode home and ran 5km off the bike, a bit slow to start but was good once I got going. This is the first time I've ran off the bike for months and thought it's time to start with race day 4 weeks away. Does anyone run off the bike all the time even for a short time?? I do quite a bit, but don't count it as run training, as it sometimes is only once around the block. I just like the repetition of getting off the bike and trying to find my proper pace. It's really more transition practice than anything related to fitness. On occasion I will do a full brick, but that's only when time constraints force me to. Or, more likely, bagging on a scheduled run earlier in the week forces me to make it up. Which... I'll probably be doing Saturday. |
| 2011-05-06 8:34 AM in reply to: #3436046 |
Champion 5117 Brandon, MS | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! Weekend plans anybody? Anybody racing? I'm planning on a brick tomorrow morning (making up a bagged run). There's an arts festival nearby my wife and I like, so we'll hit that up. Then I'll have to force myself to work in the yard. Got a little more mulch and soil to throw down and need to buy some new herb plants. Hoping for a good run on Sunday and a little Mother's day brunch at our house. It's bloody mary and frittata time. |
| 2011-05-06 8:44 AM in reply to: #3485068 |
| Member 55 Ontario, Canada | Subject: RE: Newbz' group, Winter is finally over, right? FULL! sesh - 2011-05-06 9:34 AM Weekend plans anybody? Anybody racing? I'm planning on a brick tomorrow morning (making up a bagged run). There's an arts festival nearby my wife and I like, so we'll hit that up. Then I'll have to force myself to work in the yard. Got a little more mulch and soil to throw down and need to buy some new herb plants. Hoping for a good run on Sunday and a little Mother's day brunch at our house. It's bloody mary and frittata time. sesh, on this brick, what are the distances you'll complete? As for me, still sick. The only thing I did was some stretches and I managed to walk 30 minutes very slowly on the treadmill. It was tiring, but I really needed to get my body moving a little bit at least. |
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