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 2011-11-30 1:26 PM in reply to: #3920752 |
Master  1585    Folsom (Sacramento), CA |  Subject: RE: Tebow!ratherbesnowboarding - 2011-11-30 11:10 AM uclamatt2007 - 2011-11-30 1:55 PM scoobysdad - 2011-11-30 10:32 AM Cuetoy - 2011-11-30 10:48 AM The argument isn't that Tebow is a top QB in the league. It's that he's a huge reason for Denver's turnaround, which the numbers support. However, now that you bring it up, I think I would take Tebow-- right now-- over probably half the starting QB's in the league. Certainly over the ones you mentioned, excluding Rivers, plus Painter/Orlovsky, Bradford, Ponder (though I like him), Gabbert, McCoy, Skelton/Kolb, T. Jackson, Grossman, V. Young, Hanie, Leinart/Yates, Alex Smith and Joe Flacco. Probably Sanchez, Fitzpatrick and Hasselbeck, too. Not bad for a second-year player making his seventh start. scoobysdad - 2011-11-30 11:14 AM Interesting article from SI this morning: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/kerry_byrne/11/29/tim... “Put most simply, Tebow consistently outplays the other team's quarterback, often by wide margins. This superior play is the No. 1 reason for Denver's sudden success -- now 5-1 with Tebow at QB this year after a dismal 1-4 start. But these superior performances seem lost on even the most knowledgeable football minds, like that of Broncos executive and Hall of Fame quarterback John Elway, for example.” Well, I wouldn’t put outplaying Matt Moore, Carlson Palmer on his first game back after his holdout, Matt Cassel and Phillip River, as big accomplishments in my resume. Of those guys the only one worth anything is Phillip River and he has more up and downs than a yo-yo. The only other decent quarterback they played was Stafford and as we all know they got annihilated. Ok, now this thread is just starting to head to the ridiculous. Honestly, before you read that article, had you ever heard of the "Cold, Hard Football Facts.com's Real Quarterback Rating." I don't know if you can take that as gospel in terms of statistical analysis. But lets assume that Tebow has outperformed the other QB in the wins. There is another component that is again being ignored, how well the defenses played. If the Broncos defense played well, then yes, Tebow could very well have a higher "Cold, Hard Football Facts.com's Real Quarterback Rating" than the opposing QB, even in a game that he played mediocre. A game where he had 2 completions for example. Again, I do think that Tebow has helped this team, I just don't think he is the primary reason for the turnaround. He is helping the team by not making mistakes and allowing the defense and special teams to put them in a position to make plays late.
Yes - it was a big deal in the sports talk world when they started using it at the beginning of THIS season. Its still new and still unknown to most. Sports Illustrated came up w/ a formula that looks more at the overall game and the overall play of the QB than just the passing game. Its possible to have a great passer rating and still loose the game - Its even possible for the loosing QB to have a better passer ratting than the winning one. RQR's take all of the offense into account, or the game management of the QB. Why should the QB be 'punished' if the O has a good rush and can pound the ball all day? Is a ball thrown out of bounds b/c of coverage the same as a pass the receiver dropped or the QB over/under threw? PR its the same stat, RQR separates them and weights them differently. Basically, they take the 5 major factors of the PR, and break those down even more to better reflect the QB's performance on the field, not just the passing part. Actually, I just found the explanation of the RQR. I think that you are thinking of the QBR from ESPN. * (An explanation of Real Quarterback Rating. The indicator is calculated just like passer rating, which is based upon four factors: completion percentage, yards per attempt, TD percentage and interception percentage. You need five raw pieces of data to do the calculation: attempts, completions, yards, TDs and INTs. We use the same formula for Real QB Rating, but add in the impact of rush attempts, rush TDS, sacks and fumbles, in this manner: ATT (attempts) = pass attempts + rush attempts + plus sacks; ADV (advances) = completions + rush attempts. NetYds (net yards) = passing yards + rushing yards -- yards lost on sacks. TDs (touchdowns) = TDs passing + TDs rushing by QBs. TOs (turnovers) = interceptions + fumbles by QBs. QBR (Quarterback Rating). We then punch those five numbers into our passer rating calculator to spit out the Real QB Rating.)
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| 2011-11-30 2:06 PM in reply to: #3920790 |
Master 1517 Western MA near the VT & NH border on the CT river | Subject: RE: Tebow! uclamatt2007 - 2011-11-30 2:26 PM Actually, I just found the explanation of the RQR. I think that you are thinking of the QBR from ESPN. * (An explanation of Real Quarterback Rating. The indicator is calculated just like passer rating, which is based upon four factors: completion percentage, yards per attempt, TD percentage and interception percentage. You need five raw pieces of data to do the calculation: attempts, completions, yards, TDs and INTs. We use the same formula for Real QB Rating, but add in the impact of rush attempts, rush TDS, sacks and fumbles, in this manner: ATT (attempts) = pass attempts + rush attempts + plus sacks; ADV (advances) = completions + rush attempts. NetYds (net yards) = passing yards + rushing yards -- yards lost on sacks. TDs (touchdowns) = TDs passing + TDs rushing by QBs. TOs (turnovers) = interceptions + fumbles by QBs. QBR (Quarterback Rating). We then punch those five numbers into our passer rating calculator to spit out the Real QB Rating.)
You're right. I did get them confused.. But it 'looks like' RQR jut adds more info to ESPN's QBR, not just the passer rating as thats the last factor they use.. ATT (attempts) = pass attempts + rush attempts + plus sacks; ADV (advances) = completions + rush attempts. NetYds (net yards) = passing yards + rushing yards -- yards lost on sacks. TDs (touchdowns) = TDs passing + TDs rushing by QBs. TOs (turnovers) = interceptions + fumbles by QBs. QBR (Quarterback Rating)
Regardless. If I was a GM, I wouldnt have drafted Tebow in the first round. But if he was on my team, or I was the Broncos GM, I'd ride that wave till the rest of the NFL figures it out. Heck, right now I'd take him over 20 other QB's in the league. He's a winner. Cant explain it. He just gets it done - A good game manager with the help of a good defense. He doesnt make the mistakes that can cost you the game ala Sanchez. And if I had his success w/ his mediocre skills, I'd believe in and thank a higher power every chance I'd get too. |
| 2011-11-30 2:50 PM in reply to: #3920845 |
Champion 8540  the colony texas | Subject: RE: Tebow! Not much to add that hasn't been beat to death, but Elway's rookie year passing stats were not that great. Under a 48% completion rate. In no way am I saying that Tebow will be another Elway. Just that he is willing to work, is making progress, his team mates like and respect him already. That's not a bad start, for any player I"d wager that most people are tired of or just dislike the Tebow bandwagon going on. But he is not the one promoting himself a la T.O / OchoCinco. Considering there are only 3-4 top notch QB's in the leauge that can carry a team, so the majority of QB's need Help from Defense, special teams and coaching to win. |
| 2011-11-30 3:17 PM in reply to: #3906878 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Tebow! Te-bump! |
| 2011-12-04 3:32 PM in reply to: #3920953 |
Champion 6056 Menomonee Falls, WI | Subject: RE: Tebow! 2 TD's. 149.3 passer rating. Defense gives up 32. Oh, and Tebow is 6 and 1. All he does is win. |
| 2011-12-04 3:54 PM in reply to: #3925641 |
Elite 6387 | Subject: RE: Tebow! scoobysdad - 2011-12-04 2:32 PM 2 TD's. 149.3 passer rating. Defense gives up 32. Oh, and Tebow is 6 and 1. All he does is win. Uhhh... the defense scored 7 of those points. The defense has been keeping them in these games. McGahee is helping plenty. And not to mention... the TEAM is getting better the more they play under a new system and a new coach. Having said that.... yes he is growing on me. He is playing better the more time he gets. He keeps plays alive. His passion is obvious. Winning makes everyone happy. |
| 2011-12-04 4:24 PM in reply to: #3906878 |
Pro 4838 | Subject: RE: Tebow! He just keeps winning. |
| 2011-12-04 5:12 PM in reply to: #3925653 |
Pro 4277 Parker, CO | Subject: RE: Tebow! powerman - 2011-12-04 2:54 PM scoobysdad - 2011-12-04 2:32 PM 2 TD's. 149.3 passer rating. Defense gives up 32. Oh, and Tebow is 6 and 1. All he does is win. Uhhh... the defense scored 7 of those points. The defense has been keeping them in these games. McGahee is helping plenty. And not to mention... the TEAM is getting better the more they play under a new system and a new coach. Having said that.... yes he is growing on me. He is playing better the more time he gets. He keeps plays alive. His passion is obvious. Winning makes everyone happy. Turnovers also helped keen the Viks in the game. Tebow was 10 for 15 for over 200 yards. Almost all coming in the 2nd half. It's football...alot of intangibles...but let's give Tebow well deserved credit for what appeared to be a season playing for the # 1 draft pick to now being a serious playoff contented. 5-wins on the road...awesome job for any QB! |
| 2011-12-04 5:47 PM in reply to: #3906878 |
Master 2642 Bloomington, MN | Subject: RE: Tebow! He is playing good enough to win and that's all that matters. |
| 2011-12-04 6:29 PM in reply to: #3925701 |
Elite 6387 | Subject: RE: Tebow! rayd - 2011-12-04 4:12 PM powerman - 2011-12-04 2:54 PM scoobysdad - 2011-12-04 2:32 PM 2 TD's. 149.3 passer rating. Defense gives up 32. Oh, and Tebow is 6 and 1. All he does is win. Uhhh... the defense scored 7 of those points. The defense has been keeping them in these games. McGahee is helping plenty. And not to mention... the TEAM is getting better the more they play under a new system and a new coach. Having said that.... yes he is growing on me. He is playing better the more time he gets. He keeps plays alive. His passion is obvious. Winning makes everyone happy. Turnovers also helped keen the Viks in the game. Tebow was 10 for 15 for over 200 yards. Almost all coming in the 2nd half. It's football...alot of intangibles...but let's give Tebow well deserved credit for what appeared to be a season playing for the # 1 draft pick to now being a serious playoff contented. 5-wins on the road...awesome job for any QB! And not to mention several of those big passing plays came from blown coverage. But yes, let's give credit for what Tebow is contributing to the team. He is contributing plenty. |
| 2011-12-04 6:57 PM in reply to: #3925783 |
Champion 6056 Menomonee Falls, WI | Subject: RE: Tebow! powerman - 2011-12-04 6:29 PM rayd - 2011-12-04 4:12 PM powerman - 2011-12-04 2:54 PM scoobysdad - 2011-12-04 2:32 PM 2 TD's. 149.3 passer rating. Defense gives up 32. Oh, and Tebow is 6 and 1. All he does is win. Uhhh... the defense scored 7 of those points. The defense has been keeping them in these games. McGahee is helping plenty. And not to mention... the TEAM is getting better the more they play under a new system and a new coach. Having said that.... yes he is growing on me. He is playing better the more time he gets. He keeps plays alive. His passion is obvious. Winning makes everyone happy. Turnovers also helped keen the Viks in the game. Tebow was 10 for 15 for over 200 yards. Almost all coming in the 2nd half. It's football...alot of intangibles...but let's give Tebow well deserved credit for what appeared to be a season playing for the # 1 draft pick to now being a serious playoff contented. 5-wins on the road...awesome job for any QB! And not to mention several of those big passing plays came from blown coverage. But yes, let's give credit for what Tebow is contributing to the team. He is contributing plenty. Some of those big pass plays were created out of nothing but Tebow, too. |
| 2011-12-04 7:18 PM in reply to: #3925823 |
Elite 6387 | Subject: RE: Tebow! scoobysdad - 2011-12-04 5:57 PM powerman - 2011-12-04 6:29 PM Some of those big pass plays were created out of nothing but Tebow, too. rayd - 2011-12-04 4:12 PM powerman - 2011-12-04 2:54 PM scoobysdad - 2011-12-04 2:32 PM 2 TD's. 149.3 passer rating. Defense gives up 32. Oh, and Tebow is 6 and 1. All he does is win. Uhhh... the defense scored 7 of those points. The defense has been keeping them in these games. McGahee is helping plenty. And not to mention... the TEAM is getting better the more they play under a new system and a new coach. Having said that.... yes he is growing on me. He is playing better the more time he gets. He keeps plays alive. His passion is obvious. Winning makes everyone happy. Turnovers also helped keen the Viks in the game. Tebow was 10 for 15 for over 200 yards. Almost all coming in the 2nd half. It's football...alot of intangibles...but let's give Tebow well deserved credit for what appeared to be a season playing for the # 1 draft pick to now being a serious playoff contented. 5-wins on the road...awesome job for any QB! And not to mention several of those big passing plays came from blown coverage. But yes, let's give credit for what Tebow is contributing to the team. He is contributing plenty. I agree, and there is no downplaying of his ability to keep a play alive. I am getting happy with the fact he is not making a bunch of stupid mistakes. Some mistakes are expected with a rookie QB and a new coach and system, but he is keeping plays alive and getting positive yardage. Heck look at Farve when he was young... it was either an interception or a touchdown. Positive yardage on a busted play from a rookie QB is definitely a good thing. |
| 2011-12-05 8:28 AM in reply to: #3925846 |
| Veteran 458 Minnesota | Subject: RE: Tebow! powerman - 2011-12-04 7:18 PM scoobysdad - 2011-12-04 5:57 PM powerman - 2011-12-04 6:29 PM Some of those big pass plays were created out of nothing but Tebow, too. rayd - 2011-12-04 4:12 PM powerman - 2011-12-04 2:54 PM scoobysdad - 2011-12-04 2:32 PM 2 TD's. 149.3 passer rating. Defense gives up 32. Oh, and Tebow is 6 and 1. All he does is win. Uhhh... the defense scored 7 of those points. The defense has been keeping them in these games. McGahee is helping plenty. And not to mention... the TEAM is getting better the more they play under a new system and a new coach. Having said that.... yes he is growing on me. He is playing better the more time he gets. He keeps plays alive. His passion is obvious. Winning makes everyone happy. Turnovers also helped keen the Viks in the game. Tebow was 10 for 15 for over 200 yards. Almost all coming in the 2nd half. It's football...alot of intangibles...but let's give Tebow well deserved credit for what appeared to be a season playing for the # 1 draft pick to now being a serious playoff contented. 5-wins on the road...awesome job for any QB! And not to mention several of those big passing plays came from blown coverage. But yes, let's give credit for what Tebow is contributing to the team. He is contributing plenty. I agree, and there is no downplaying of his ability to keep a play alive. I am getting happy with the fact he is not making a bunch of stupid mistakes. Some mistakes are expected with a rookie QB and a new coach and system, but he is keeping plays alive and getting positive yardage. Heck look at Farve when he was young... it was either an interception or a touchdown. Positive yardage on a busted play from a rookie QB is definitely a good thing. I notice you keep refering to Tebow as a rookie. He played last year as well. |
| 2011-12-05 11:20 AM in reply to: #3926349 |
Elite 6387 | Subject: RE: Tebow! TriJedi - 2011-12-05 7:28 AM powerman - 2011-12-04 7:18 PM I notice you keep refering to Tebow as a rookie. He played last year as well.scoobysdad - 2011-12-04 5:57 PM powerman - 2011-12-04 6:29 PM Some of those big pass plays were created out of nothing but Tebow, too. rayd - 2011-12-04 4:12 PM powerman - 2011-12-04 2:54 PM scoobysdad - 2011-12-04 2:32 PM 2 TD's. 149.3 passer rating. Defense gives up 32. Oh, and Tebow is 6 and 1. All he does is win. Uhhh... the defense scored 7 of those points. The defense has been keeping them in these games. McGahee is helping plenty. And not to mention... the TEAM is getting better the more they play under a new system and a new coach. Having said that.... yes he is growing on me. He is playing better the more time he gets. He keeps plays alive. His passion is obvious. Winning makes everyone happy. Turnovers also helped keen the Viks in the game. Tebow was 10 for 15 for over 200 yards. Almost all coming in the 2nd half. It's football...alot of intangibles...but let's give Tebow well deserved credit for what appeared to be a season playing for the # 1 draft pick to now being a serious playoff contented. 5-wins on the road...awesome job for any QB! And not to mention several of those big passing plays came from blown coverage. But yes, let's give credit for what Tebow is contributing to the team. He is contributing plenty. I agree, and there is no downplaying of his ability to keep a play alive. I am getting happy with the fact he is not making a bunch of stupid mistakes. Some mistakes are expected with a rookie QB and a new coach and system, but he is keeping plays alive and getting positive yardage. Heck look at Farve when he was young... it was either an interception or a touchdown. Positive yardage on a busted play from a rookie QB is definitely a good thing. Regardless of technicalities... he's a rookie QB in the NFL |
| 2011-12-05 12:20 PM in reply to: #3926746 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Tebow! powerman - 2011-12-05 12:20 PM TriJedi - 2011-12-05 7:28 AM powerman - 2011-12-04 7:18 PM I notice you keep refering to Tebow as a rookie. He played last year as well.scoobysdad - 2011-12-04 5:57 PM powerman - 2011-12-04 6:29 PM Some of those big pass plays were created out of nothing but Tebow, too. rayd - 2011-12-04 4:12 PM powerman - 2011-12-04 2:54 PM scoobysdad - 2011-12-04 2:32 PM 2 TD's. 149.3 passer rating. Defense gives up 32. Oh, and Tebow is 6 and 1. All he does is win. Uhhh... the defense scored 7 of those points. The defense has been keeping them in these games. McGahee is helping plenty. And not to mention... the TEAM is getting better the more they play under a new system and a new coach. Having said that.... yes he is growing on me. He is playing better the more time he gets. He keeps plays alive. His passion is obvious. Winning makes everyone happy. Turnovers also helped keen the Viks in the game. Tebow was 10 for 15 for over 200 yards. Almost all coming in the 2nd half. It's football...alot of intangibles...but let's give Tebow well deserved credit for what appeared to be a season playing for the # 1 draft pick to now being a serious playoff contented. 5-wins on the road...awesome job for any QB! And not to mention several of those big passing plays came from blown coverage. But yes, let's give credit for what Tebow is contributing to the team. He is contributing plenty. I agree, and there is no downplaying of his ability to keep a play alive. I am getting happy with the fact he is not making a bunch of stupid mistakes. Some mistakes are expected with a rookie QB and a new coach and system, but he is keeping plays alive and getting positive yardage. Heck look at Farve when he was young... it was either an interception or a touchdown. Positive yardage on a busted play from a rookie QB is definitely a good thing. Regardless of technicalities... he's a rookie QB in the NFL What? Regardless of technicalities? He's a second year player. Period. Sure there was a lockout and he has a new coaching staff, but this is his second year in the NFL. |
| 2011-12-05 12:22 PM in reply to: #3926844 |
Elite 6387 | Subject: RE: Tebow! mrbbrad - 2011-12-05 11:20 AM What? Regardless of technicalities? He's a second year player. Period. Sure there was a lockout and he has a new coaching staff, but this is his second year in the NFL. My bad... he's a seasoned vet then. Regular journeyman QB. When will he start playing like one. Edited by powerman 2011-12-05 12:24 PM |
| 2011-12-05 12:29 PM in reply to: #3926850 |
Champion 6056 Menomonee Falls, WI | Subject: RE: Tebow! powerman - 2011-12-05 12:22 PM mrbbrad - 2011-12-05 11:20 AM What? Regardless of technicalities? He's a second year player. Period. Sure there was a lockout and he has a new coaching staff, but this is his second year in the NFL. My bad... he's a seasoned vet then. Regular journeyman QB. When will he start playing like one. Why would he take a step backward?  He's playing (and winning) like a Top 10-ish QB in the league. |
| 2011-12-05 12:36 PM in reply to: #3906878 |
Elite 6387 | Subject: RE: Tebow! Well I guess next stop is Canton. |
| 2011-12-05 12:41 PM in reply to: #3926850 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Tebow! powerman - 2011-12-05 1:22 PM mrbbrad - 2011-12-05 11:20 AM What? Regardless of technicalities? He's a second year player. Period. Sure there was a lockout and he has a new coaching staff, but this is his second year in the NFL. My bad... he's a seasoned vet then. Regular journeyman QB. When will he start playing like one.
Dude, chillax. I like the kid but have no illusions about his abilities. I just get pedantic sometimes, and a second year player is not a rookie. That's all. Edited by mrbbrad 2011-12-05 12:42 PM |
| 2011-12-05 1:45 PM in reply to: #3926882 |
Elite 6387 | Subject: RE: Tebow! mrbbrad - 2011-12-05 11:41 AM powerman - 2011-12-05 1:22 PM mrbbrad - 2011-12-05 11:20 AM What? Regardless of technicalities? He's a second year player. Period. Sure there was a lockout and he has a new coaching staff, but this is his second year in the NFL. My bad... he's a seasoned vet then. Regular journeyman QB. When will he start playing like one. Dude, chillax. I like the kid but have no illusions about his abilities. I just get pedantic sometimes, and a second year player is not a rookie. That's all. So then what is the proper Webster word for 2nd year QB with 11 starts that would satisfy your pedantic sensibilities? ...and he is not a kid... he is a legal adult and has been for a few years. Edited by powerman 2011-12-05 1:46 PM |
| 2011-12-05 2:36 PM in reply to: #3926977 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Tebow! powerman - 2011-12-05 2:45 PM mrbbrad - 2011-12-05 11:41 AM powerman - 2011-12-05 1:22 PM mrbbrad - 2011-12-05 11:20 AM What? Regardless of technicalities? He's a second year player. Period. Sure there was a lockout and he has a new coaching staff, but this is his second year in the NFL. My bad... he's a seasoned vet then. Regular journeyman QB. When will he start playing like one. Dude, chillax. I like the kid but have no illusions about his abilities. I just get pedantic sometimes, and a second year player is not a rookie. That's all. So then what is the proper Webster word for 2nd year QB with 11 starts that would satisfy your pedantic sensibilities? ...and he is not a kid... he is a legal adult and has been for a few years. Second year player work for me. Maybe second year pro. Maybe young and inexperienced second year pro with questionable mechanics. Just not rookie. |
| 2011-12-05 2:51 PM in reply to: #3906878 |
Elite 6387 | Subject: RE: Tebow! Hummmm... an inexperienced full grown adult 2nd year player with 11 starts and questionable mechanics.... rookie.... ....ya I can see where that would cause quite a bit of confusion. Inexperienced full grown adult 2nd year player with 11 starts and questionable mechanics it is. Edited by powerman 2011-12-05 2:58 PM |
| 2011-12-11 6:31 PM in reply to: #3906878 |
Elite 6387 | Subject: RE: Tebow! |
| 2011-12-11 6:35 PM in reply to: #3934405 |
Veteran 219 College Station, Texas | Subject: RE: Tebow! powerman - 2011-12-11 6:31 PM +1I BELIEVE! I BELIEVE! I BELIEVE! I BELIEVE! WOOOOO HOOOO!!!!
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| 2011-12-11 6:36 PM in reply to: #3934405 |
Champion 6056 Menomonee Falls, WI | Subject: RE: Tebow! Is it wrong for a straight married man to have a Te-boner? |
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