Experior and Slornow's Spring/Summer Mentor Group-CLOSED (Page 54)

Last Saturday I joined a group ride with the local bike shop and got dropped after the first mile. I live in a land of rolling hills. Every incline felt like a mountain while the rest of the group seemed to float uphill. I just couldn't keep up. After the fourth small hill I was alone.

This sucked because I didn't feel like riding alone. I was thinking, "Really?!?!?! I'm the only slow S.O.B. out here today?!?!?!" Depending on how many riders show, the group will break up into A, B, and C groups. It seems everyone brought their "A" game on Saturday.

Getting dropped doesn't bother me. It's not a no-drop ride. I'm bothered by witnessing the distance between where I am and where I want to be. My ego is just a tiny bit smushed by that. My bubble of denial has been popped. Every missed workout was evident.

The little devil on my shoulder, who is usually filled with helpful tidbits like, "A can of soda is only 130 calories!" and  "Yes! A brownie would go great with that ice cream!" was all, "BWAHHHhhh  Haaaa Haaaaa! YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!!"

To round out the experience I was almost hit three times. All by drivers who saw me. Whom I made eye contact with!!!!!

The first driver cut me off from the right as I was going uphill. You have to be a profoundly incompetent driver to narrowly avoid getting t-boned by me going uphill.  My mental process was: "Thanks for waiting. I'm going as fast as I can ... WHAAAaaa! You gotta be kidding me! WTF?!?!?!?"

The last thing I need while riding uphill is to hit the breaks.

The second driver was coming head first out of his driveway too fast as I was traveling downhill. I actually had a spidey sense experience that said to break so, I was already slowing down when we saw each other. I hit the breaks and skidded a bit and he lurched to a halt in the middle of the road as I rolled behind him.

The third was same as #1 but, from the left. I got a nice face full of his exhaust as he sped away.

Thank goodness there wasn't a fourth or I'd have done something un-Disney like and the BT meanies would be all over me to HTFU (Kidding! I kid :-).

Needless to say it was a humbling Saturday. Perilous experiences aside, getting dropped was good for me. I'm now more motivated than ever to not only train, but, to also be mindful about what I'm eating. I've missed a workout here and there but I've really let myself slide on nutrition.  Now I have a visceral example of how closely performance is tied to both training and diet at my age. I can't ignore that any longer.

And to think I only needed seven months to figure that out :-)

I know how you feel; I need to start riding in a group to gain some perspective. Riding by myself, I can feel like I'm pushing it and going fast. But then I raced Saturday and got passed like I was standing still! Very humbling...

1.) I am glad that you didn't actually get hit three times. I think that would warrant a few trainer rides in favor of outside rides if that would happen to me. I cross my fingers that I have never come close to getting in an accident.

2.) Group rides ... I never tried group rides but I think I would approach an experience like your by getting on the bike a few times and go back to the same group a few weeks later and ride with them again to see how/if I improved.

3.) I want to give you an example from my last race. I did the same race course on May 20th and again yesterday. My time for 23 miles on May 20th was 1 hour 24 minutes. Yesterday I improved that time on the same course by 9 minutes. All I changed was the consistency of my training which is something I learned from this group. I also wasn't passed by as many riders as I was two months ago.

4.) I know and I heard it so many times the engine is what counts but I am wondering if there is a threshold you can't cross unless you have a decent bike (or maybe I just want a nice looking tri bike :-))

Steve-that sounds like a blast!  Sounds like the kids got into it. Congrats on a great race and more importantly a cool family experience.

Randy 

Mark-bummer about the group ride. SCARY on the close calls. Sounds like you have a new resolve to train more and eat better. Sounds like a trainer at the house might be something to consider.  It would allow you to train more and would have to be safer than your local roads  Consistency is key.

Randy

Spousal support-my wife is very supportive/tolerant of my triathlon thing.  Jamie, like you I can be a bit obsessive and seem to go head long into whatever is my current interest.  Now I think she realizes triathlon is here to stay.  She does give me a hard time frequently asking what "costume" I will be wearing tonight. She obviously does not appreciate the importance of optimal workout wear.....or perhaps just thinks that a 50 year old man needs to avoid spandex at all costs.

Michael made tons of great points. Try to keep your training/racing from disrupting the family dynamic as much as possible. My wife goes to some races but triathlon is not a very spectator friendly sport. 

Randy

I'm OK with going out on the road again. I'm a very cautious cyclist. The first and third drivers didn't stress me too much b/c I was prepared for them to do something stupid - and they delivered. The second guy was a total surprise (except for my spidey sense :-)

I must say it was a very atypical day. I usually have no trouble on the road.

That is most certainly the plan. Realistically, it's going to take months (years even) instead of weeks to get up to their A speed. I've ridden with this group before but usually some riders my speed show up so I'm not left alone.

That's an incredible improvement! I totally lack consistency in my s/b/r workouts. Well, I did. starting today I will not.

I believe there is. The difference between my previous bike (a Giant flat-bar road bike) and my current (Cannondale Synapse) is dramatic. With no extra training my average MPH went up by 1-2. More noticeable was climbing. The Cannondale climbs so much better.  So, you are perfectly correct in wanting a new tri bike. I'm just glad I don't have to buy it for you :-)

I live in Dutchess County, NY. It's semi-rural. There are lots of busy roads but, there are also lots of quite ones. Folks from NYC often come up here to get away from the traffic.

It was a very unusual day. I saw a total of 10 cars that morning. Normally it's a bike-friendly area. Over the past few years more and more cyclists have been out on the roads. People usually go out of their way to avoid you. I found the three that don't conform :-)

I'm convinced it was one of those "The Universe is trying to tell you something" days. 

I dig your reality but, yes! there is some of that. Most of the members are triathletes or racers though. Some ride their bikes to the group rides. Some ride their bikes to local triathlons! 

Thanks for the tips. I can use all the knowledge I can get. Unfortunately, this time I was off the back from the start. I never even got on the wheel of the last rider. I was doomed from the start. The finishing blow was the same hill where I usually get dropped. Normally there would be some slower riders I could fall back to. This time there was none.

I try to stay seated for as long as possible. I read that somewhere on BT I think. I downshift to the easiest gear before standing in order to save my legs. I have no problem asking questions either :-)

I like to catch a group ride exactly because triathlon is such a loner sport. I get really tired of training alone and find it motivating to train with others. I have no problem if a woman is faster than me. The club VP is a cat 1 racer and we also have another woman going to the Sprint World Championship AND Duathlon World Championship this year. The women in the club are pretty badass.

Thanks for the advice! -Mark

I have been thinking about getting a trainer lately. Not to avoid the roads but to add the needed consistency. I've been doing my best to remove excuses. I picked up some weights for the days I can't get to the gym and that helped tremendously with being consistent in my strength training. I'm wondering if a trainer will do the same for my cycling.

Are there any tips when looking for a trainer.  The LeMond Revolution trainers look great but are pricey.  Are the less expensive trainers any good?

-Mark

Mark- a trainer allows riding regardless of weather, darkness or traffic.  I do 80-90% of my riding on my trainer in the garage.  I use e-motion rollers and love them but they are more pricey than most trainers.  I think Stu may have the Lemond.  There are numerous good trainers in the $300 range.  Hopefully, you can get some suggestions from folks here.  I have not used a magnetic/fluid trainer soothers will have better info on those.

Going to be on the road today. Running intervals on the schedule for tonight.  Have a good day everyone.

Randy

Glad you're OK, Mark.  It sounds like you have the right attitude -- get out there again and keep improving.

I rarely ride the trainer in the summer, but I live a quick ride away from a very safe and good place to ride.  If getting outside is more of a production, and in the winter, a trainer is a very very good tool to have.  You can pick up a decent used one for around $100.  I personally much prefer the fluid trainers to the magnetic ones.  They feel much more like riding on the road (to me).

Rene made some great points about typical roadie group rides -- they tend to have relaxed portions punctuated by all-out hammering.  Those who are experienced at it are good at making the hammering appear to be just more of the relaxed riding, but trust me, they are working!  In addition to her pointers, I'd add that it is important to know when and how to catch a break, and to anticipate when the hammering will begin.  (Most hills will be hammered, in my experience.)

Steve, that is several kinds of awesome.  You are rightly proud!

Ok, big question here: What is bike speed and how do I get it???

I just finished my 3rd sprint, and I'm happy with how I've done so far. I definitely feel stronger than when I started, and I'm better at SBRing than when I started, by far. However, I seem to understand how to get faster with swimming and running, but biking is puzzling me. So, here are my questions:

1. I look to be averaging 16-17 when I push it. How do I increase that? By that I mean, do I look to just hammer it all the time, or do I push hard uphill, or what? 

2. In a race, especially a sprint since that's what I have done so far, do you guys just go 100% all time? Do you hold anything back for the run?

3. Is it just a matter of more time in the seat? I know that I haven't had a ton of time in the saddle yet, do I just need to keep my head down, so to speak, and keep working on the bike? I just can't tell because with running, you run slow often, throw some intervals in and you seem to get faster. Does it work like this on the bike?

I think those are all my questions! I'm just asking because so far it looks like if I want to get any faster overall, it's going to have to be on the bike, and I'd like to do some passing, instead of getting passed!

Jamie- On the bike I think a big part of it is time in the saddle.....bike more. You are still fairly new to this but are starting to be able to assess your strengths and weaknesses. In general a hard bike ride does not require as much recovery as a hard run.  Swimming is a whole different animal since it is so technique driven.  On the bike try to build up your mileage....a trainer helps with this since you can ride it at night or in poor weather.  Maybe set up 4 bike workouts a week. Assuming training for an olympic race...structure the week with 2-3 workouts during the week and a long ride of around 1.5-2 hours on the weekend. During the week I would try to do 2 quality workouts and maybe one as active recovery (anywhere from 30 min to an hour of easy spinning).  The quality workouts should include some hard intervals judged either by HR or RPE.  An example might be 10 min. warm up then 5x 8min moderately hard HR upperZ3/lowZ4 with 2 min. recovery  finish with 5 minutes easy.  In general the longer the interval the "easier" the effort.  Do some variation of the hour workout 2x a week with an optional active recovery/easy spin session and a long ride and you will be hitting 4-5 hours a week.  That may be too much but you can adjust down to 40-50 min workouts.  It takes time....but to really improve you have to "learn" to suffer on the bike...pushing past your comfort level....remember recovery from the bike is much easier on the body.  The active recovery session is a great way to recover from an earlier run...flush some of the crud from the legs.  Some may consider it wasted training time but my legs always feel better after an easy spin than they did when I got on the bike. 

Take a look at www.tripower.org  Go to the "new forums" tab and click it then click on any of the "bike workout" postings.  Mike Plumb is the tripower coach and posts 3 bike workouts each week as well as swim workouts.  Very simple/straight forward bike workouts that are interval focused.  Really can't go wrong with the workouts if you are training for anything less than HIM. 

The other thing is being consistent in the "off season." Again a trainer helps with that.  Training consistently on the bike through the winter will put you in good shape come race season.  A TV or dvd player with Netflix makes the trainer much more tolerable....that and several strong fans..

Effort level depends on the length of the race. Sprint is just shy of all out...maybe 90-95%. Olympic is 85-90% and HIM???? I'd rather be a bit conservative on the bike and set myself up for a good run....any run, regardless of distance, is brutal if you overcook the bike.  

Randy  

Great questions Jamie.

The short answer is that riding more will do it.  But there are better and worse ways to 'ride more'.

You're spot on about running -- mostly easy, sometimes hard.

Biking is not like that.  The reason is that the chance of injury, while certainly not zero, is much less.  A lot of running faster is acclimating your body to the pounding.  Not so with biking.  Biking faster means developing power and the ability to sustain it.

So, unless you ride 6 or 7 times a week, don't even think about doing 'easy' (zone 1) rides (except for pleasure -- I'm talking solely about training for the purpose of getting faster).  Riding too easy is, IMHO, the primary mistake made by triathletes.

Having said that, you can't go all out all the time.  You need to mix it up.  I think that the crucial components of a generic training program are these:

1.  One session where you do short intervals (such as 6x4'/1' or even 20x30"/30").

2.  One session where you do longer intervals (such as 3 or 4 x 10'/2' or 2x20'/4').

3.  One long ride that is NOT easy -- this is not a Sunday cruise.  Warm up for the first 15%-20% then get it up to zone 3.  Even consider some tempo stuff in there.

4.  The remainder of the rides are steady state where you work up to z3 pretty quickly and hold it.

The interval sessions should have a warm-up where you ramp up to 2 over 10 minutes or so, then do 5 or 10 'mini-intervals' of 20" hard/40" easy, then steady for about 5 minutes, then hit the intervals.  After the intervals, cool down for 5-10 minutes if possible.  If you are strapped for time, try to get at least 1-3 minutes of cool-down.

Exactly how the intervals etc. are structured is a finer point and depends on a lot of factors, but really that's the icing.  Get some cake first.

As for racing, that's also a great question.  It's all well and good to say "go all out" but really there is no such thing unless maybe you are sprinting for 100m.  There's a reason that 30 second power is so very much higher than 60 second power, etc.  So how hard do you go?  Experience counts for a lot, here.  But in general I'd say that people do not go hard enough.  I know I didn't in my first season.  Now, in a sprint, I do not think at all about the run while biking.  I just try to hold an effort that is as hard as I can hold for the time.  The result is that I cannot feel my legs for the first half mile or so of the run, but what I've learned is that it doesn't matter -- I'm still running!  And after a half mile or so it all comes around and just starts to feel like the hard part of a standalone 5K.  It probably took me 2 years to get myself to race sprints this way, but I think it is the way to go.

Bottom line:  don't be afraid to fail.  That's how you learn.  Next sprint you do, kill it on the bike.  If you totally fall apart on the run then yeah, that was too hard.  Probably, it won't be.

Lol, Randy and I just cross-posted.  We are saying pretty much the same thing.  I guess that's a good sign...

I will second a point he mde that I didn't -- I was talking solely about sprint races.  The importance of pacing on the bike increases as the distance increases.  Oly -- somewhat important.  HIM -- very important.  IM -- it makes or breaks your race.

Jamie - I am pretty much in the same boat. When I did my first rides with a buddy of mine he had to wait for me. That changed as soon as I added some aero bars to my road bike. Being in the aero position helped me keep up with him. That and clip in pedals were probably the best investment on my cheap Walmart bike. 

I also went to trainerroad.com which is an extra $10 expense but well worth it. It helps me a lot to stay consistent on my rides. All you need is a heart rate monitor and a speed/cadence sensor. Check it out I can only recommend it. I am now riding at least 2-3 times on the trainer during the week and me and my buddy are going for 16-34 mile bike rides were we are trying to push each other. To give you an example I just finished my 2nd OLY on the same course. My average speed was 17.4mph on May 20th and with consistent training I was able to move that up to 18.3mph on Sunday. That saved me 9 minutes on the bike portion. 

Oh and again ... I agree its the time you put in on the bike to make your ENGINE stronger but I do believe the hardware you use does play a part in the equation. Hang in there and with consistency you will see improvement. I know I did/do!

 x2 on Trainerroad  Very cool program with tons of great workouts. 

Randy

Being able to sprint to the finish is not necessarily a sign that you weren't pacing well.  Pacing -- even in a sprint distance race -- is about aerobic management.  Sprinting is anaerobic.  Unless you are totally shelled at the end of the race, you can go anaerobic for a few seconds without too much trouble.

On the other hand, the fact that you are never sore after suggests that maybe you aren't going hard enough.  (FWIW, and maybe this is just me, I'm sore after every race, regardless of distance.  I'm almost never sore after a training session, even a hard one.  Racing is just a different experience altogether.)  I'll say what I said before -- don't be afraid to fail.  Push harder and see what happens.  You'll probbly surprise yourself.  Keep doing that.  Eventually you will go too hard and fall apart before the end of the race.  That's a very valuable experience to have.  (Within reason.  Be smart.  If you start throwing up or seeing stars or blacking out -- stop!)

After 400mg Ibuprofen and a 2 hour nap I was ready to get back on the bike on Sunday after the race. I have a Sprint Triathlon coming up on the 29th of July. I think I will try to go all out on that one!

Managed to get in a high intensity trainer ride after work.  This evening I did an 8 mile run, with a full effort sprint of 1/4 mile for each mile.  Did this on the treadmill.  Normally like to so these types of workouts on a track but it was 99 degrees outside! What a great workout.  I was surprised at how fast I did the entire run. 

     Seems like my paces are all over the place.  On average I do probably 9:15-9:20 min miles on my long runs.  When I run with others I always go much faster.  In fact I did a 25 K and surprised myself with a time of 2 hours 4 min (8:04 pace).  When running alone, I know I don't push as hard as when with others. 

     I usually run with music as I feel it helps get me motivated.  Sometimes when tiring I say HTFU along with my cadence.  Really helps.  Does anyone else have a saying or mantra that helps when you feel you are hitting a wall?