Slornow's and Wannabefaster's Summer Mentor Group - CLOSED (Page 59)

Good job Mike. Those reverse races sound.....interesting. I do the swim just to get to the bike and run. If the bike and runn came first I'd have a hard time being motivated for the swim

Ouch! Glad you were able to work through it.

Jamie - thanks for the quick update. My husband thinks you're awesome because he loves it when people battle through and finish despite challenges.

Heal up and give us the full story when you're ready. And of course most importantly you are, and forever will be, an ironman. Welcome to the club :-)

You really are an IRONMAN! YIKES! So glad you were able to finish though - congrats again

More than you know.... I really have to watch my pace on the second half of the bike, you can slow down on the run and keep moving to get your HR down, but in the swim you have to stop at the wall and that equals zero forward progress. I understand why they do it like that (to string the field out so the pool isn't so packed) but it does make it tough.

Jamie...so proud of you for fighting through such a tough time. That is definitely the definition of mental toughness. I'm sure your students (you're a high school English teacher, yes??) can't wait to hear your experiences. My 8th graders ask me every Monday morning what my weekend of training looked like. I'm sure yours will be inspired by you.

Ok, everybody, I'm back in the real world! Yesterday was pretty long, had to drive about 7 hours back home. I was supposed to head back into work today, but I'm taking a couple days to let my face start healing. I feel fine physically, but my knees and face hurt...pavement will do that apparently. It's going to be "interesting" to teach class like this!

Anyway, my Race Report is up! http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid...

I'm ready to talk nutrition! Sunday was really tough, easily the hardest thing I've ever done...and I woke up Monday morning wanting to do an Ironman more than I had on Saturday. So, I've got another year to figure out what happened and how to fix it. I was as trained as I could have been, so it's just a a matter of how to get that hydration and nutrition dialed in so I can keep going. Thanks again to everyone for all the kind words and support; I knew there would be a post on here saying, "Uh oh, Jamie's in trouble." All I wanted was to make sure there was another post that said, "He's moving. He's not doing great, but he's moving."

Jamie-great report. Your experience is really inspirational. Not sure I would have been able to push through. Well done.

Thanks again for all the support.

So, it's time to start dissecting. Anyone have theories as to what happened nutritionally? I've already set up a phone interview with the nutritionist at Infinit to discuss what I did do, and what I should change. During the ride, I had a Bonk Breaker in the first 1/2 hour, then tried to basically drink water as much as possible, probably had 4 bottles of Perform, and a Gu Roctane every hour. Right now, my best guess is I was way low on electrolytes, since a bottle of Perform says it has 20% of daily value, and I'm assuming I needed way more than average. Also, the saline solution in the med tent seemed to bring me right back to life, so could it be something as 'simple' as that? I'm totally open to any and all theories, and I have lots and lots of time to test what works. Calorie intake too low? Too much water? Mixing carbohydrate sources? All input welcome!

Oh, and if anyone has experience with road rash, I've got some pretty good scrapes on my face right now... I don't mind a little scarring, but I don't want to look like Frankenstein forever.

Jamie - for the road rash I use wet healing. It heals much cleaner. I don't know exactly what injuries you've got on your face but I recently found a "healing gel" here that worked really well on the road rash on my knee. Don't know if it'll be available there, but the one I used was made by Savlon.

Alternatively, if its in a suitable place hydrocolloid dressings are great. But faces are tricky for dressings...

Heal well.

Jamie.

I just want to tell you how impressed I am with your performance and the mental (and physical) toughness you showed on race day.

I will read your race report more closely to see if I can find any nutritional advice for you. I haven't had time to really pick it apart but should have more time tomorrow.

Congratulations again. You and Nate were great.

I'm not an expert by any standards, but I'll make my suggestions, based on your RR and what you've said here, and then you and others feel free to tell me if any of it seems right/wrong.

1) pre-race nutrition - you said you drank half a bottle of smoothie. Is that all, or did you not mention something else? Before a race I have a massive bowl of porridge and some tea (2.5-3hr before) and then I drink 750ml of sports drink in the 45min or so before the start, as well as making sure I'm taking in some caffeine. The swim is a long time to be exercising without anything to eat or drink and means that you could be starting the bike at a nutrition and hydration deficit. (last year I didn't manage so well with breakfast and could feel I was hungry coming into T1 - fortunately I had sandwiches waiting there!). I always have food and drink in T1, which is part of my transition plan for long distance.

2) on the bike, the feeling you described of feeling really tight and full sounds a lot like I had last year. In my case it was because I was too worried about drinking water, and so filled up on that and couldn't get enough nutrition in - I was using liquid nutrition and so once I was full of liquid that was it, I just couldn't get what I needed down. If the liquid is just plain water I don't think you can absorb it as fast as if there are electrolytes etc (I'm assuming it's based on osmosis, so that's my personal understanding). And once your stomach has decided it's not coping, it's really difficult to come back from that...

3) you mentioned electrolytes. I think that's key, especially when it's hot. If you take in loads of water without electrolytes you can land up "overhydrated", which (I think) means that you dilute your blood a little too much, and so nutrients and oxygen aren't delivered as effectively. Your kidneys also have to work incredibly hard to try to balance things out, which probably means that they were clearing out loads of fluid to try to get your electrolyte balance right, and that would explain the VERY low blood pressure at the end. My personal tactic this year with electrolytes was to put two electrolyte tablets into every bottle of water I got (until I got sick of the flavour, then I had a break for one bottle), and just drink whenever I thought about it. The amount I drank varied by how I felt, but it seemed to work well. Do you know how much water you drank on the bike?

I don't know if any of that is helpful - my understanding of nutrition is entirely based on what I've read and a little bit of a science background, so some of it's a little questionable I'm sure. Feel free to ignore any or all if it sounds like rubbish... ;-)

Jamie-did you do any sweat tests at similar temps to the race to know how much liquid you needed to take in?  I know that was really valuable info for me when working on my fueling plan.  I took one at 75F and one at 85F to guide me.  Even with a custom Infinit blend (which is the only thing I use on the bike other than H20) I consumed a small amount of additional sodium using Salt Stick.  I'm little so 500mg/hour is what I shoot for.

I think in your race report, you mentioned sloshing in the gut.  That sounds like your stomach was digesting things and kind of backing up.  The one time that happened to me, I dialed back my effort slightly and starting swishing the Infinit around in my mouth and spitting it out.  Supposedly it helps to get your digestive system working again.  Maybe one of the docs can comment on that one.

I also wonder if taking in that Bonk Breaker within the first 30' was a mistake.  I usually wait about 15' to start fueling on the bike to get my HR to settle and even then it is only in liquid form.

Everyone is so different in nutrition and what they can handle.  The good news is you have a year to really concentrate on it before the next IM.

1. Yeah, my pre-race nutrition wasn't what I wanted it to be. I usually go with a plain bagel and Gnutella, but the hotel didn't have a toaster, so I had to improvise with the smoothie. I don't think I'd do it again. It was quite a few calories, but it was a large bottle, and I couldn't drink it all. Also, there was a lot of waiting before the start. I got up at 4, finished drinking by 5:30, or so, and then waited in line until almost 7:30. Next time, I'll plan on that wait, and have a definite morning nutrition plan.

Too much water, and too little sodium is my best guess as to what happened. I was really focusing on drinking a lot of water. I didn't keep an exact account of water drank of the bike, but I made sure to always take water at every aid station, so I am going to guess at least 18-24 oz./hour, plus I tried to get 1 bottle of Perform/hour. I had worked out the calories in the Perform/Gu combination, but totally ignored electrolytes bc I'd never focused on them during training. In retrospect, that was a pretty glaring omission. I had been listening to some interviews with sports scientists who basically said electrolytes weren't all that important, but I've decided what their lab experiments say and what happens to me in the real world might be two different things. Thanks for the suggestions!

I have to totally agree with 1) above. I don't think that is near enough fuel to have on board when you are getting ready to swim in an IM. I eat oatmeal (porridge)-a giant bowl, plus a banana, plus at least two cups of coffee (I see you posted about the lack of facilities at the hotel. This is one of the reasons why I go with oatmeal. I take instant oatmeal with me to every race so I know that I have what I need on race morning. I never change my race morning plan, no matter what the distance I am racing). While waiting for the swim, in the 1:15 before the swim start I drink a bottle of my on-bike liquid nutrition which gives me another 425 calories plus a lot of fluid to have on board for starting the swim. I try to finish it about 15-30 minutes before I go in the water. I usually have to pee pretty bad by the time I am in the water. Now is not the time to skimp on calories!

For the bike (number 2 above) it sounds like you got to the point where your gut was shutting down and not absorbing things. I usually think this happens when people are getting to the edge of their fitness. You weren't going too hard but you had been racing for a long time and your gut 'talking to you' like that is a sign that you have exceeded what your body will tolerate. I have had this happen to me a couple times. At IM distance, reducing your intake is a really bad idea so the other option is to drastically reduce your work load. I have had to back way off on the bike in the past when I have started to feel "sloshy" or nauseated. I know that you said the nutrition plan had worked in the past but you were getting to the six plus hour mark of going pretty hard and this is your body's way of registering its unhappiness with the situation.

This is also one of the reasons why I like an all liquid nutrition plan. It takes some of the guess work out of it for me. I don't have to wonder if it was the bonk breaker, or the gel, or the cliff bar, or the banana, etc that did me in. All of my calories are coming from my water bottles so it doesn't take long to diagnose where the issue is. When I start to get hungry, and I do, it means I need more fluids. When I hydrate, either with water or 'sports drink' my hunger goes away.

You said that you were peeing so it doesn''t sound like you were dehydrated (yet) on the bike. The other thing about solids is getting the osmotic load right. If you put something in your gut that has high concentrations of sugar or electrolytes, unless you dilute it appropriately with water, your body will do it for you, but by drawing water out of your circulation to do so. This can leave you dehydrated and put a lot of fluid in your gut. Unfortunately it becomes a positive feedback loop because as more water is drawn out of circulation in to your gut to dilute the solids, the more you get intravascularly depleted and the body starts to shunt blood flow away from the gut. At that point absorption essentially stops until you can reestablish your intravascular volume, which is hard to do because you aren't absorbing. You can pour all of the water in the world in to your stomach and it will just sit there, sloshing around, making you feel distended and often sick to your stomach. The only way to really get back on track is to stop and let your gut slowly reestablish some level of absorption (or get an IV which quickly expands your blood volume and almost intantly makes you feel great and get back on track). This may take some time which you don't have when you are racing against the clock. Obviously it is best to try not to ever get to this point. Again, this is why I like avoiding solids. I don't really worry about the osmotic load of my liquids (although I do know that my concentrated liquid nutrition is hyper osmolar so I do have to drink some water with it).

I worry less about elecrolytes than most. I know my body will pretty tightly regulate my intracellular electrolyte levels. It is pretty darn hard to deplete your body's electrolytes. It can be done but not easily. Getting hyponatremia from excessive water consumption is pretty hard. Again, it can be done but not easily. Have I mentioned that I go with all liquids? My mixture is pretty electrolyte dense. Sometimes I think it tastes too salty. I believe that I am getting more than enough electroytes from my drink mix. I don't want to confuse things by adding in salt tabs. I'm not saying that you can't get electrolye depleted, I'm just saying that it is pretty hard. Of course some really fast racers believe differently. Google Jordan Rapp's nutrition report from his races. The amount of salt he takes in is staggering.

I think that by the end of the run you were definitely dehydrated, badly. But I believe that this is most likely due to your fairly minimal intake/absorption of fluids over the 6+ hours you were on your feet. Your blood pressure at the med tent and your marked improvement with the IV bolus are both evidence for how far you were behind in intravascular volume.

I think in the end, the only way to recover once things started to go bad would be to back off dramatically and let your body equilibrate. It looks like that is essentially what you did on the run and it is probably what allowed you to finish. You instinctively did the right thing.

Can I say again how impressed I am with the way you kept going when it would have been so easy to quit. I am really glad to hear that you want to do this again. The things you learned in your first IM will make your second one a much different experience. The first time you toe the line with that kind of distance in front of you there is no way to know what to expect, no matter how much you trained. Now you know and can adjust accordingly. I know you just finished your first but I hope I get to follow along and 'watch' your prep and performance in your second.

PS. I think your plan to consult with an Infinit rep is a good one. My liquid only plan evolved from reading some of Infinit's promotional literature. The simplicity of their nutrition plan appealed to me and alleviated much of the worry I had about one of the most important aspects of long course racing.

This is the second time today I'm saying this but reading everyone's reports on IMs and watching videos online etc.....is making me itchy.......maybe I'll get there in 2015!

I've never done the sweat test, but I'm definitely going to now. As far as the Bonk Breaker goes, that wasn't part of the plan per se, but I was hoping to throw in a few extra calories to make up for the swim. Can I ask how you decided to aim for 500mg/hour? I've been doing some reading, but can't see how you decide the rate to replenish. Thanks for the help!

Suzy & Jason, thanks for the input. I am definitely planning on going the route of liquid nutrition, especially since I have a lot of time to work on it. I would've done it earlier this year, but I was worried about switching up before the race. I'm going to try a sweat test once I can get out and do some work again, and hopefully the nutritionist will have some good info for me. I also think I went into the race undernourished, as you've mentioned.

Shifting gears somewhat, I just put down my deposit on an awesome-looking hotel/hostel in Chattanooga for what I plan to be my next IM. It's called The Crash Pad: dirt cheap, very modern-looking, downtown, and will probably be more hospitable to a racer than your typical hotel. Registration opens on the 4th!

Otherwise, Nate and I are going to do a semi-local race called The Dam Tri at the end of September. We did it last year and really enjoyed, even had a chance to meet Experior there, since that's his neck of the woods. After that, I have some ideas, but no definite race plans, at least until Raleigh 70.3 next June.

I get to head back to school tomorrow and show all my students & co-workers my face! This should be "interesting". I'm actually not entirely dreading it; a good many of the people who work with me were tracking me online and were really pumped about the race. My principal even tweeted about it, which was cool.

Jamie-great that you are going to do Chattanooga. The "Crash Pad" was started/developed by a young guy that lived in the same complex where we had a condo in Chattanooga. There is an olympic race in early July each year. Might be one to consider. IM bike course will be different but swim will be in same body of water and run will cover some of the same ground. How is the recovery coming?    

As far as the body goes, just fine. I feel normal. The face will take awhile to heal, so it might be a couple weeks at least before I can jump in the pool. I'm trying to decide how to proceed from here, as far as training goes. My thinking is, right now, that next week ill stick with my previous training schedule, as far as what to do on each day, and then just keep the volume lower than what it was. Any thoughts?

Jamie and Nate, you Ironmen are inspiring!!

You both had different races for sure, I am impressed with your committment and accomplishments!

The nutrition information has been interesting to read.

I have been building on the bike for an October century ride. I did an 80 mile ride last Saturday, very hot here that day. I have tolerated fluid in the form of Gatorade and Powerade as well as solids like bananas, PBJs, cookies and Clif bars on these training rides. Of course I am not racing. I have felt good throughout these rides as far as having enough energy. I know I don't have it quite right yet though because I have swelling and weight gain for a couple of days post ride. I would expect to lose weight on the rides but I consistently don't during that 2-3 day period each week.

I am doing an MS ride weekend after this one, going to try to do the 150 miles in the two day event.