Jamie's HIM/IM Training Group-CLOSED (Page 6)

75' ride for me this morning. I was due for intervals @ FTP but delayed that. I can't generate the power in the early AM (4AM) so I did another ride scheduled for this week. 45' at HIM pace, 30 min @ IM pace. Interval workout will get pushed to Wed PM. 'Character builder' ride today. Didn't want to do it. Couldn't get comfortable in the saddle but it's done.

Hope for a 4-5 mile run after work. Need 25MPW for me this week. Raining right now and I don't want to get cold AND wet. I need to move south.......

Jamie

Still sick here, but good news is I only coughed for 30 minutes this morning after waking up. That may sound bad, but it's actually quite an improvement.  I did yoga yesterday because I was dying to do *anything* active.  Very low impact and I think it did me some good to move my body a little.

Thanks for the input.  Im most comfortable on the bike, so I worry that I dont put enough thought into it come race day and that could have been a bigger problem last year.

Part of the issue was absolutely run fitness, but I would say I had the same lack of run fitness for both of the HIMs in question.  Im hoping to have broken though this wall with all the running that I did at the end of 2010.  First race I went at a practiced race pace on the bike and died on the run.  Second race tried to be even more aware of the bike pace and keeping with the quarters, which led to a slower bike time and just as lousy a run.  With such a small sample size, its hard to come to a solid conclusion...poor run base, bad nutrition, lousy bike plan, combination of everything?  Since I havent heard all that many strategies for the bike, maybe there is something better out there that could help.

Took my first day off of the year yesterday which was desparately needed. In order to hit my plan last week, I ended up doing a 90 minute run on Sunday which was both a long run and a quality run. My legs needed the rest although my ego wanted to keep the streak alive.

That means I'll need to get two double days in this week. This morning I knocked off an easy 60 minute spin, and will hit the pool this afternoon.

Here's my thoughts and since I haven't done a HIM, they are literally worth about $.02.  I am quickly learning that figuring out the ideal pace on the bike is a VERY tough thing to do.  It seems like it is one thing to do a 4 hour training ride at what you think is a good HIM pace, only to discover it is too hard after throwing in the run and the swim. 

It seems like the best way to figure out a personal pace is experience and actually completing a couple HIM's to know what is ideal for you.  Personally I am a bit worried about getting to the run portion of the HIM and falling apart bc I went too hard on the bike.  So as far as you are concerned, I think you're getting VERY close to figuring it all out through your experience.  I would guess you'll probably nail it the next time around.  However, I am curious how others came up with ideal bike paces on their first HIM's, because it seems like mine will be a guestimate and I always seem to guestimate too conservative in order to finish!

Some good thoughts on Hydration and the idea of doing the SWEAT tests. The other part of this of course is all the electrolights we loose with the sweat and finding the formula to replace those.

I really found that making sure I am replacing the fluids and electolights along with some carbs and protien is the key to having legs left after the long rides.

Your idea of the sweat test no doubt will show most of us we don't consume enough and I know I for one have to train my body to handle the sports drink / water and / or nutrition in my work out schedule.

I would be in the camp of the first HIM is all about the learning experience.  I went into my first HIM last summer and mad a definate game plan and that was finish healthy happy and with no injuries.

I liked the idea of the first quarter easy and the middle half at what you normal train at and then see how you feel, I took a page form spin classes and the last couple miles increased my cadance but reduced my gears so I was spinning easily as I came in and it allowed me to get alot of the lactic acid out of the legs and get ready for the run.

The result was my 1/2 marathon time was only a minute a mile off my time of my 1/2 marathon race I had done a month earlier, not blazing but not bad.  I felt my problem was my nutrician not my legs. I just didn't have the gass left in the tank to keep pushing the whole way, the first 6 miles were right on the last 6 got a little ugly, but they got there.

I becoming a big believer that if you do the training it will be there but you got to have the fuel in the tank and the water in the rad.

Regarding the pacing questions for HIM (and IM for that matter), I would suggest to practice. Here is what I do after determining my zones (for me, power but HR is good too).

I space long brick workouts throughout my training season. Leading up to IM, the longest would be about 5hrs on the bike followed by a 2 hr run. I consider this a rehearsal so I wear what I would wear on race day and nail my hydration/nutrition. I do ALL of my biking on the trainer (yes, year round, every ride) and lock on to a power that my testing tells me I can hold. (substitute HR zone). I will do about 1 hr of this and target watts + 10-15% which is good enough to simulate hills. Then I run at exactly the pace that I want to run the marathon using my Garmin. My goal is to nail that average pace for the entire 2 hours. My goal IM run pace is ~8min/mile.

I have a shelf by my bike/trainer that contains all of the bottles, gels and salt that I need for the entire ride. I never stop, I never coast and I never have to worry about traffic. After that I slip on my running shoes and run a series of 4 mile loops around my house for 2 hours in this example. I do 4 mile loops b/c in about 4 miles is when I need to change water bottles (~50oz/hr). Again, no need to stop b/c my water is at the foot of my driveway right on the running route. Toss bottle in grass, pick up another one.

I always do a sweat test. I then look at the data and determine if the bike wattage was correct and if my pace was good. I also look at sweat rate and note the conditions for that day.

Personally, I find that practicing the race let's me do my best.

It's always a good idea to take the bike easier than you want/feel. Most HIM's and IM's in the AG divisions are decided on the run not the bike and most definitely NOT in the swim. So practice your pace and your nutrition and EVERY opportunity and then execute it on race day. For IM'ers, remember that nutrition/hydration is even more vital.

Jamie

Edited by jamiej 2011-01-18 6:16 PM

Wow.  You really believe that?  Care to explain?  I've always heard (and believe) that the bike just sets up the run.  I know you said AG, but I thought Crowie said it best during the IMWC...  "You only have a certain amount of energy to use.  It's just how much you use and when you use it." or something to that effect.  Sorry, I just want to make sure I understand you correctly.

BTW, totally agree with the practice.  Everyone is different and the best way is to simulate race conditions as much as possible.  You are the man for doing a 5 hr trainer ride!

So I'm back from Whistler and put in a 23k ride on the trainer. I'm on the 20 week plan at week 3 and thought I would try out the pace idea. For me I am able to maintain a 30km/h but there is no way I can do that on a trainer. I am way slower on the trainer, my legs just can't do it.

I remember Alexander's words being exactly in line with jamie's statement that the races are decided on the run.  If I remember right, he said something like, "If you spend too many pennies on the bike, you pay on the run."  In other words, it all comes down to the run for him. That's why he's never sweated it that he starts the run several minutes behind....because he's got a great run and usually is able to reel them in.  This time he simply got out-performed by a few guys that raced out of their minds.

On a similar note, I've always wondered if Lieto would fare better if he didn't go so nuts on the bike.  I know it's his strongest event, but just think of the energy he'd conserve if he held back a bit more and tried using the extra "pennies" to reach deep on the run.  I know he's a professional and much smarter than I, but I just wonder if that strategy would be better for him.

I do really believe that. Maybe I need to rephrase. 'It is ALL about the run for most AG races". AG= age group, not pro. In other words. The mistake that is most often made by AG'ers is going too fast on the bike and not being able to run to their potential. Another one mentioned many times is that there is NO such thing as a good bike followed by a bad run. If that happens, you didn't pace the bike according to your current fitness level, period.

Does that clarify?
Jamie

I know these trainer rides aren't for everybody. For me, they fit my lifestyle perfectly. I love the trainer and always have. If you have a good trainer and a good saddle (with good chamois cream!) it will make a large difference in your experience on the trainer.

It really is the perfect way to train for HIM/IM. One very long isopower effort completely in the aero position. I don't have to worry about water stops, dogs, cars, traffic, stop signs, weather, daylight etc. Or being nailed by some idiot in a car on a cell phone. I completely understand that most people would be bored to death. Luckily, I'm not. I don't even watch TV during the session. I just watch my powertap computer.

I will say that I did coach a guy that trained exclusively like this for me last year and he went right @ 11hrs for his first IM so I'm not just a freak. BTW, 5 hrs isn't the longest. 6.5hrs is.

I'll start another thread on this thought:

...Anywho, the point is that however you train you need to make an effort to identify you zones (HR or power) correctly. Test and adjust often (every 4-6 weeks for power) and train at race pace zone or slightly higher for a very large % of the time. Train over the zone sometimes as well. Train under the zone only very, very infrequently.

There are many suggested ways on the net to test your FTP (watts) or to obtain your max HR/LTHR etc. If you post to find the 'right' one you will get a million different answers. The right one is the one that you will use exclusively. In other words, pick a test and stick with it. Testing on the bike trainer is the best way to conduct the test of your choice. Likewise for running on a track.

You can't expect to train a majority of your time in Z1 and then race in Z2/3. It's just not going to happen. It's like saying that your going to train at 16mph and then race at 18 mph. By the way, don't ever race on a desired speed goal (see post above for blowing up on the bike and not running to potential).

You need to train your body to go at your desired HR zone/Watts for however long (and probably slightly longer) than your desired 'A' race distance in the aero position. Aero, aero, aero......

Jamie

How much slower is 'way slower'? What kind of trainer do you have?
Jamie

Totally makes sense.  I wrote what you said earlier and it sounds like we meant the same thing, but said it two different ways. 

Sorry to get your trainer time wrong.  6.5 hours - YOU ARE THE MAN!  I get too bored.  Speaking of trainers.  What kind do you have?  I have a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine and I can't average more than 17.5 mph, but during races (up to an HIM) I average 20+.  I hear about people averaging 20+ on their trainer for an hour.  I can't come close.  I know you train with power, but any idea on how mph and how that translates?


Edited by Jeepguy2358 2011-01-19 7:19 AM

I have 2 KK road machines. Excellent trainers. I train by watts and tape over the mph readout so I have no idea. It is absolute folly to train on mph. Train at time in HR zone or watts. Completely ignore mph. It is what it is.

jamie

I have a cycleops magneto trainer. Way slower is I can avg 27kmh no problem and race at 30kmh. On the trainer it is hard for me to hit 24kmh. I am usually at 22 or 23kmh. I heArs it is probably fromthe heat inside and no wind to cool me down plus the no coasting thing. I the trainer just kills me.

I don't use mph.  I know my HR Zones and use those.  What kind of Power meter do you use?  I've been thinking about getting the KK one, but know you can only use it with the trainer.  I think it might be a good training tool though and I could get some kind of correlation between power and mph when I am on the road.  Right now, it's all HR. 

Powertap. KK powermeter is nothing but a fancy calculator of sorts. It takes your mph on a KK trainer and throws it through an algorithm to give you a 'watts' readout. From what I hear, this # is remotely related to a watts # that you get from powertap/quarq/SRM. In other words, it's in the ballpark but not close enough to be useful for if/when you get a powermeter. I know that was kind of a soft answer. If you are determined to train with power then I would put that money in the bank towards the real deal.

MPH and power will not correlate on the road. There are way too many variables to correlate them. Wind, terrain, rider position (drag) etc. The only reason a KK "powermeter" works is b/c the KK trainer is calibrated extensively there are no 'environmental' variables that need to be accounted for.

Cheapest and most reliable powermeter in my opinion is a powertap. I bought a used one that I've been using now for 2 years with no problems. $750 for wheel w/powertap hub and a disc cover. I use it for training and racing. New is about $1K. You can get a wired one for 600-700. Both are very functional. Once you start training/racing with power you will wonder what in the heck you were doing before....

Jamie

Cody - I know we have a couple Dave's on this thread but I think this one was directed at me. I did my MBA at Santa Clara University (2008) - a private Jesuit school here in Silicon Valley...not very well known in other areas but has a great reputation locally, especially in the tech world.

The U of M program is Ross right? Pretty top knotch from what I've heard. My water polo team had a pretty strong rivalry with Michigan State so I'm glad you didn't go there. =)

So what are you doing with your MBA?