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2010-06-10 12:39 PM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
brick94513 - 2010-06-09 8:49 PM
shmeeg - 2010-06-09 7:17 PM Do you guys ride on patched tubes or do you just chuck em?  I got a pinch flat today, dunked it in the tub when I got home and patched it w/ one of those cheapy patch kits where you just scrape the tube w/ sandpaper, peel and stick the patch.   Do I need to get one of those rubber cement kits before I can ride on that tube again or is the stick on patch ok?


I keep the patched tubes for training.  New tubes go on for the races!


I just throw them out. Not sure how much patch kits are but I figure at $3.50 each, new ones aren't breaking the bank and I probably buy fewer than 10 a year.


2010-06-10 11:40 PM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
Finally feeling like I've kicked the cold...had a great training day today. Morning 5.5 mile run, and a 4000m swim after work (main set was 30 100's...bruuuutal).

Vineman HIM is 5 weeks from this Sunday!
2010-06-11 8:56 AM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
Good Friday morning!  Any weekend plans?  Unfortunately for me, I have to head back to work on Sunday morning.  We will probably pack up tonight and leave for home early tomorrow since my oldest has another baseball game.

I had a pretty good week with some lower intensity training and some cross training.  I'm ready though to get back into my routine for a couple weeks before XTERRA Tahoe City at the end of the month.
2010-06-11 8:59 AM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!

dhopman - 2010-06-10 9:40 PM

Vineman HIM is 5 weeks from this Sunday!

Do you have goals for the race (split times and overall time)?

2010-06-11 9:26 AM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
I had a rest day yesterday after a brick workout Wednesday. I wanted to report back on the recovery drink I tried. I ordered both Hammer recoverite and Endurox R4 on recommendations I got. I tried the Edurox after my brick. Seems to have worked well. I felt much less tired and sore 1 and 2 days after the workout than I have been feeling lately.
2010-06-11 9:56 AM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
Hope all is well with you guys.  I'm picking up the boat this afternoon and tomorrow we are hitting the lake.  I may swim laps around the boat for beer   Have a good weekend all.


2010-06-11 10:15 AM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!

Let's talk a little about running....

So, by now you should know that your running plan should include three types of runs: easy, long, and speedwork.  Speedwork includes hills, tempos, and intervals.  Speedwork and long runs are only done once a week.  Long runs should never exceed 40-50 percent of your total weeky mileage.

But, now the question becomes, how fast should I run these different types of runs.  While the gold standard would be a VO2 max and LT threshold test, not all of us have these tests available to us or the cost is prohibitive.  So, another option is to use a performance based calculation.  I have used Jack Daniel's VDOT calculation for the last year and have found it to be quite accurate and challenging.

Try this website:

http://www.attackpoint.org/trainingpaces.jsp

Here's my profile using a 5k at 19:38.  Using a longer distance race time is more accurate, but I don't have a recent stand alone time for a race greater than 5k.

VDOT= 50.89
Easy/Long Pace 8:24
Marathon 7:10
Tempo: 6:45
Intervals: 6:10

I don't use (r) pace.  I feel it is too intense for my training schedule.

Also, by determining your VDOT, the calculation will provide you rough estimates for different length races.

Thoughts?  Questions?

2010-06-11 10:16 AM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
SAWFISH50 - 2010-06-11 9:56 AM

Hope all is well with you guys.  I'm picking up the boat this afternoon and tomorrow we are hitting the lake.  I may swim laps around the boat for beer   Have a good weekend all.




hahahhahahahaaahahaha!! Now that's great training!!!

have fun!
2010-06-11 10:25 AM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!

There has been some talk about training plateaus, so I thought this article would be appropriate:

Running Training: Principles and Needs

Article By: Jack Daniels

Training principle #1 -- the body reacts to stress. There are two types of reaction to the stress of exercise: 1) An acute reaction, such as you would experience if you got up from your seat, went outside and ran to the comer. Heart rate speeds up, stroke volume (the amount of blood pumped with each beat of the heart) increases, ventilation rate and depth of breathing increase, blood pressure rises, your muscles feel some fatigue, etc. If you perform this ritual--running to the comer-on a regular basis, then you will continue to get regular, acute reactions to this activity. You will also get a different reaction to the repeated, chronic exercise, or training, as we favor calling it.

(2) Training produces changes throughout your body , which allow you to perform the daily run-to-the-comer with less discomfort (and probably in less time as well). The muscles that are stressed become stronger and blood flow to the exercising muscles becomes more generous. Changes inside the muscle cells provide more energy for the muscles, and less lactic acid accumulates during the bout of exercise. Your resting heart rate will undoubtedly be slower (due to a stronger heart being able to pump more blood per beat and, therefore, needing fewer beats to deliver the needed blood). Also, yo&ll probably develop a lighter, springier step (due to fitter leg muscles), lower resting blood pressure, lower body weight, and less fat under the skin.

Training principle #2 - Specificity of training. The system which is stressed is the one which stands to benefit from the stress. While training for one particular sport usually has little or no beneficial effect on your ability to perform a second sport, in some cases there may actually be a detrimental effect. An example of this would be the negative effect that long-distance running has on explosive leg activities, such as sprinting and jumping. The same thing could be said for what body building would do for distance running; the extra muscle mass developed can act as dead weight, interfering with a runner's ability to optimize his or her distance-running capabilities.

To become really accomplished at something, you must practice doing that thing, not some other activity, which may not only take time away from the activity of primary interest, but may also actually produce results which limit performance in the main sport. This is not to say that all non-specific activity is bad, but considerable thought must be given to every aspect of running, and you must know what everything you do is doing for (or to) you.

Training principle 3 -- Specificity of over training Just as training benefits those body systems which are properly stressed by the exercise, overstrained has a negative impact on the systems which are over-stressed.

Naturally, it is possible for a single, over stressed system to affect a variety of activities other than the one which caused the damage. For example, a stress fracture in the leg, brought about by too much, or improper, running, can prevent a runner from performing other activities which also put stress on the injured extremity. However,too much running doesn't always mean
you become over trained in other types of physical activity, and it may be beneficial to limit running for periods of time in favor of other types of training.

Training principle #4 -- A specific stress produces a specific result This is common sense, but still important to bear in mind. This principle really says that the benefits that can be expected from doing 3 1-mile run at 8-minutes each, with 5-minutes recovery between runs, 3 days a week, are specific to that frequency (3 times each week), amount or load (3 miles of running per
session), intensity (8:00 pace), and recovery between runs (5-minutes). Someone who carries out this training regimen regularly, will reach a level of running proficiency which will remain stable (and which will be different from the proficiency level reached if the training program consisted of
five-mile runs at a speed of 7:00 per mile pace. Figure 1 shows how a new level of fitness would be reached over time.

Figure 1

At that point, the possibilities for training modifications are limitless. You could increase the training frequency, from 3 to 4 or more days per week; increase the amount of training, from 3 to 4 miles per session or by increasing each of the 3 individual workouts from 1 mile to 1-1/2 miles each. Another possibility would be to increase the intensity (speed of running each mile), from 8-minute pace to 7:40 pace, for example. A final possibility would be to change the
recovery time allowed between the mile runs within a workout. Any one of these changes in training (frequency, duration, intensity, or recovery) or any of these changes in combination with one another, will affect the result of the program, resulting in a new level of fitness being reached over time.
(see Figure 2).

Figure 2

Training principle #5 -- Rate-of-achievement principle This principle is depicted by the curves in both Figures 1 and 2. You will notice that the rate of achieving the ultimate benefits of a particular type of training program 4 is rapid at first and then tapers off over time. A look at the time scales on these curves shows that most of the benefits of a particular training regimen are quite adequately realized in a matter of four to six weeks. Keep in mind, that sticking with a training program for longer than six weeks may continue to produce more benefits, because without an increased stress of training there might be continued changes in body composition (loss of unnecessary fat, for example), which can produce better performance. However, quite
adequate benefits are realized in a matter of weeks.

If the runner described in Figure 1 wanted to increase training, a good time would be after about six weeks, and Figure 2 shows how the reaction to such changes would look if the alterations were imposed at six-week intervals. The danger of changing (increasing) training too often, is primarily increased risk of injury, or over stress caused by taking on too much too fast. Remember, it is very difficult to get a feeling of what a particular training load is doing for you if
you do it stay with it for awhile.

Training principle #6 -- Personal limits Another principle of training, which is related to the curves I have been presenting, is that each individual has unique personal limits. In fact, you could probably safely say that every system in a person's body has limits. For example, there is a limit as to how to you will be, how strong a particular muscle in your body can get (the heart
muscle being an important one for all of us), how much air you can breathe in and out of your lungs, how much blood cm be transported to your running muscles, how much oxygen your running muscles can use in converting fuel to energy, and how fast you can run a mile, a 10K or a marathon. It may be sad, but we all have limits, and these limits can vary greatly from individual to individual. Different ones of us will reach different degrees of success, which are greatly dictated by what our limits are. The good news is that probably few people realize their limits, relative to running, and improvement is almost always possible. Further, the limit often is seasonal and next year things will continue to improve, to a new "limit".

Training principle #7 -- Diminishing return The upper (left) curve of Figure 3 uses mileage to clarify this principle. The benefits of 'increasing weekly mileage are shown in this figure, with an all-inclusive term, "competitive fitness," plotted against weekly mileage. Take the example of someone who starts training with 10 miles per week, then doubles it to 20, then again doubles to 40 and finally to 80 miles per week, allowing a couple months at each level It doesn't matter how gradually this runner progresses from 20 to 40 to 80 weekly miles of training. The point is that the benefits reaped from 40 miles per week are not double those realized as a result of 20-mile weeks. Nor are the results of 80 double that of 40 or 4 times the benefit of 20 miles per week. Adding more and more mileage to your weekly training does not produce equal percentages of improvement in competitive fitness. The same thing applies to increasing the amount of faster, quality training.

Figure 3


Training principle #8 -- Accelerating setbacks The nature of the curve that depicts this principle is the mirror image of the diminishing-returns curve and is shown in lower (right) curve of Figure 3. Here, increases in training stress are plotted against the chance of encountering a setback, which might take the form of an injury or illness or even a lack of interest in training. A setback is a setback and all must usually be avoided at all costs. The setback principle simply states that low levels of training produce few setbacks, and as a person trains harder and harder, the potential for setbacks increases exponentially.

Training principle #9 -- Ease of maintenance This principle holds particularly true for maintenance of a level of competitive ability, which must at least in part be a function of reaching a particular level of confidence. Although I am primarily referring to physiological fitness, it is no secret that psychological factors play an important part in how fast you can race. Once you break the 5-minute mile barrier, or any other personal goal doing it again is not the task it was the first time, and the effort required (in training) to repeat the task is usually well short of what was initially involved.

The maintenance principle is an important one to consider when planning a long-term train@ program because it allows you to shift your training emphasis from one system (say development of cellular adaptations that respond favorably to long, easy mileage) to another system (repetition work for the enhancement of economy, for example), and yet still maintain the cellular benefits through less-frequent attention to the longer runs.

Training principle # 10 -- Time-erodes-memory You always tend to forget how hard you trained earlier in your career, when you are disappointed by how hard it is to make a comeback. This is the "time-erodes-memory" principle.

2010-06-11 10:50 AM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
brick94513 - 2010-06-11 6:56 AM Good Friday morning!  Any weekend plans?  Unfortunately for me, I have to head back to work on Sunday morning.  We will probably pack up tonight and leave for home early tomorrow since my oldest has another baseball game.

I had a pretty good week with some lower intensity training and some cross training.  I'm ready though to get back into my routine for a couple weeks before XTERRA Tahoe City at the end of the month.


I'm gonna try to get a long ride in tomorrow morning and we're hittin the pool for some fam time in the afternoon.
2010-06-11 10:53 AM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
Meulen - 2010-06-11 7:26 AM I had a rest day yesterday after a brick workout Wednesday. I wanted to report back on the recovery drink I tried. I ordered both Hammer recoverite and Endurox R4 on recommendations I got. I tried the Edurox after my brick. Seems to have worked well. I felt much less tired and sore 1 and 2 days after the workout than I have been feeling lately.


I just got some hand-me-down Skrawberruh Recoverite from one of the guys I ride w/ yesterday.  One thing I will say for it over the R4 is it mixes a lil better and goes down quicker.  16 oz of water is a lot to chug after youve just put down 40-60 oz on a long bike ride.  Also the R4 makes me feel bloated sometimes.  I like em both.


2010-06-11 10:53 AM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
SAWFISH50 - 2010-06-11 7:56 AM Hope all is well with you guys.  I'm picking up the boat this afternoon and tomorrow we are hitting the lake.  I may swim laps around the boat for beer   Have a good weekend all.


Don't drink and drive on the lake!
2010-06-11 10:57 AM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
brick94513 - 2010-06-11 8:15 AM

Let's talk a little about running....

So, by now you should know that your running plan should include three types of runs: easy, long, and speedwork.  Speedwork includes hills, tempos, and intervals.  Speedwork and long runs are only done once a week.  Long runs should never exceed 40-50 percent of your total weeky mileage.

But, now the question becomes, how fast should I run these different types of runs.  While the gold standard would be a VO2 max and LT threshold test, not all of us have these tests available to us or the cost is prohibitive.  So, another option is to use a performance based calculation.  I have used Jack Daniel's VDOT calculation for the last year and have found it to be quite accurate and challenging.

Try this website:

http://www.attackpoint.org/trainingpaces.jsp

Here's my profile using a 5k at 19:38.  Using a longer distance race time is more accurate, but I don't have a recent stand alone time for a race greater than 5k.

VDOT= 50.89
Easy/Long Pace 8:24
Marathon 7:10
Tempo: 6:45
Intervals: 6:10

I don't use (r) pace.  I feel it is too intense for my training schedule.

Also, by determining your VDOT, the calculation will provide you rough estimates for different length races.

Thoughts?  Questions?



Ive seen this VDOT acronym a lot recently.  What is it exactly?  One piece of advice I would throw out to everyone is if you have to skip a run, don't skip the weekly long run.  The economy you build from it will translate into quicker 'short' distance runs; i.e. races.  I did NO speedwork last year when training for an ultra and I posted my fastest 5k time in about 10 years.
2010-06-11 10:58 AM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
Dave (Norcal SAHD), heres an oly tri on July 18th in San Jose if interested:

http://www.thresholdracinginc.com/
2010-06-11 1:15 PM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
shmeeg - 2010-06-11 8:57 AM

Ive seen this VDOT acronym a lot recently.  What is it exactly?  One piece of advice I would throw out to everyone is if you have to skip a run, don't skip the weekly long run.  The economy you build from it will translate into quicker 'short' distance runs; i.e. races.  I did NO speedwork last year when training for an ultra and I posted my fastest 5k time in about 10 years.



As explained in the book "Daniels' Running Formula" by Jack Daniels, PhD, the term VDOT is a measure of your running ability based strictly on race performance. It can be considered a sort of "effective" VO2max, which is more useful than the lab-determined value because it also incorporates your running economy, lactate response, and perhaps even your motivation and willingness to deal with discomfort! VDOT comes from two curves developed by Daniels and Gilbert: one that describes how oxygen consumption varies with running speed, and another that gives the maximum intensity a runner can sustain for any set time. For each distance, you just draw both curves and look for the time where they cross.

Also, I never skip a run.  I just move my program back for the day a missed and resume.

2010-06-11 2:08 PM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
brick94513 - 2010-06-11 6:59 AM

dhopman - 2010-06-10 9:40 PM

Vineman HIM is 5 weeks from this Sunday!

Do you have goals for the race (split times and overall time)?



This will be new territory so I'm really not sure what to expect, but sub-6 hours would be great. My Wildflower Oly was 2:50. It was hilly which slowed my bike and run. I know I could have swam a little faster too - maybe a minute or two. Roughly doubling the distances means 5:40, but add the fatigue factor, add some more heat, and subtract some hills - 6 hours could be about right.

Swim: I'd love to be sub-30 but that might be a bit optimistic. 32 minutes is probably about right.

Bike: I averaged 17mph at Wildflower on a hilly course. I think I can do 18mph or better on this one which would put me around 3:05. I really don't feel like I have a good benchmark to use on this leg.

Run: My PR is 1:41 but there's no way I'm running that fast off the bike in heat. I think 2 hours is totally doable (9:09 pace). Goal time might be closer to 1:50ish. I'm consistently running in the low to mid 8's now.

That's 5:37 in total. 10 minutes seems conservative for transitions, that's 5:47. 13 minutes of breathing room should be good in case I get a flat, or am slower that planned on the bike.

Main goal is beating my 3 other friends - doing it under 6 hours would be icing on the cake!

Okay - let me have it now. What do you think? Am I too conservative? Too optimistic? Right on?


2010-06-11 2:42 PM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
brick94513 - 2010-06-10 11:15 AM

Let's talk a little about running....

So, by now you should know that your running plan should include three types of runs: easy, long, and speedwork.  Speedwork includes hills, tempos, and intervals.  Speedwork and long runs are only done once a week.  Long runs should never exceed 40-50 percent of your total weeky mileage.

But, now the question becomes, how fast should I run these different types of runs.  While the gold standard would be a VO2 max and LT threshold test, not all of us have these tests available to us or the cost is prohibitive.  So, another option is to use a performance based calculation.  I have used Jack Daniel's VDOT calculation for the last year and have found it to be quite accurate and challenging.

Try this website:

http://www.attackpoint.org/trainingpaces.jsp

Here's my profile using a 5k at 19:38.  Using a longer distance race time is more accurate, but I don't have a recent stand alone time for a race greater than 5k.

VDOT= 50.89
Easy/Long Pace 8:24
Marathon 7:10
Tempo: 6:45
Intervals: 6:10

I don't use (r) pace.  I feel it is too intense for my training schedule.

Also, by determining your VDOT, the calculation will provide you rough estimates for different length races.

Thoughts?  Questions?



My thoughts on this are: I am already so slow going all-out with a high HR, if I tried to go any slower, I'd have to get on my hands and knees and crawl. LOL! Not trying to me a smarty pants, it's just the truth. Srsly though...I do appreciate the post and will bookmark the website for future reference.

I'm racing tomorrow. Very nervous. I think it helps me to talk about what I'm scared of, so here it is:


Bonking on the swim due to lack of training for the past 9 days.
Crashing during the bike (as usual).
Heat stroke during the run, or injury flare-up which prevents me from finishing. 
Taking an unflattering finish line photo *giggle*
2010-06-11 3:03 PM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
dhopman - 2010-06-11 12:08 PM

That's 5:37 in total. 10 minutes seems conservative for transitions, that's 5:47. 13 minutes of breathing room should be good in case I get a flat, or am slower that planned on the bike.

Main goal is beating my 3 other friends - doing it under 6 hours would be icing on the cake!

Okay - let me have it now. What do you think? Am I too conservative? Too optimistic? Right on?


Mine is merely a post of envy that you're racing a HIM!  Sounds like you have a good plan and havin some friends to challenge you will be awesome as well.  I know that I certainly am motivated to push myself when there's someone I know behind me.
2010-06-11 4:32 PM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
brick94513 - 2010-06-11 8:58 AM Dave (Norcal SAHD), heres an oly tri on July 18th in San Jose if interested:

http://www.thresholdracinginc.com/


I'll be a the tbf race on July 10 (the week before that), I'm pretty sure if I suggested doing more than one race in a month I'd not get a favorable response... 

I am actually considering doing the Oly distance at that July tbf weekend.  Not exactly sure why, seeing as I'm here sitting on my a$$ for the second week now...  Seriously though, my side is feeling real good today, and I'm getting back to it this weekend.  Given my surprisingly strong (for me...) swim at last weekends sprint, I'm feeling like I could hammer out an Oly swim without much trouble (maybe 35 minutes?).  I'll do a few pool sessions this week and see how it feels.  Maybe do a straight 1500 set just for fun (?).

My confidence is high for the sprint, but I figure my chances of bettering my time are fairly slim, seeing as I had a pretty flawless race as far as mistakes go.  I finished 16/35 in my AG, so my goal of becoming a solid middle of the packer has been accomplished Sealed  and I sure don't see doing much better than that next month.  On the other hand, I could up the ante, add a little fear and uncertainty to the weekend, and go for the Oly.  I've got the run base I think, I'll do a long ride or two in the next few weeks and see how it feels.  I think it wouldn't be that much of a reach to do it, but I'd certainly be right back to the bottom of the pack. 

Gonna see how the next two weeks of training goes before I make any decisions.
2010-06-11 5:48 PM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
kickitinok - 2010-06-11 12:42 PM
I'm racing tomorrow. Very nervous. I think it helps me to talk about what I'm scared of, so here it is:


Bonking on the swim due to lack of training for the past 9 days.
Crashing during the bike (as usual).
Heat stroke during the run, or injury flare-up which prevents me from finishing. 
Taking an unflattering finish line photo *giggle*


GL tomorrow!  I'm sure you'll do fine.
2010-06-11 5:55 PM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
dhopman - 2010-06-11 12:08 PM

Okay - let me have it now. What do you think? Am I too conservative? Too optimistic? Right on?


I think that looks totally doable.  I'm not familar with the bike or run course, but being in Napa, I would assume it is going to have rolling hills.

Swim: 30 - 32
Bike: 2:56 (19MPH) - 3:06 (18MPH)
Run:  1:50 (8:23 mile) - 2:00 (9:09 mile)

5:16 - 5:38 plus transitions.  With your paces, you should easily beat the 6 hour mark.

Are you up for pre-riding the course?


2010-06-11 5:56 PM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
kickitinok - 2010-06-11 12:42 PM


I'm racing tomorrow. Very nervous.



Good luck and have FUN!
2010-06-11 6:32 PM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!

brick94513 - 2010-06-11 3:55 PM
dhopman - 2010-06-11 12:08 PM

Okay - let me have it now. What do you think? Am I too conservative? Too optimistic? Right on?


I think that looks totally doable.  I'm not familar with the bike or run course, but being in Napa, I would assume it is going to have rolling hills.

Swim: 30 - 32
Bike: 2:56 (19MPH) - 3:06 (18MPH)
Run:  1:50 (8:23 mile) - 2:00 (9:09 mile)

5:16 - 5:38 plus transitions.  With your paces, you should easily beat the 6 hour mark.

Are you up for pre-riding the course?

Absolutely!!!...you're not racing that one are you? Quickly glancing at my calendar, I'm thinking the 26th is a possibility for a day trip course preview. I'd like to do the swim and bike, maybe drive the run course.

2010-06-11 8:46 PM
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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
shmeeg - 2010-06-11 10:53 AM
SAWFISH50 - 2010-06-11 7:56 AM Hope all is well with you guys.  I'm picking up the boat this afternoon and tomorrow we are hitting the lake.  I may swim laps around the boat for beer   Have a good weekend all.


Don't drink and drive on the lake!


Never do, Too many Dip $hits on the water to be intoxicated not to mention the drive home. You guys have a good one.
2010-06-12 10:15 PM
in reply to: #2770949

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Subject: RE: brick94513-GoGoGo Mentor Group - Closed For Now!
RR is up: 

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=212536 
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