Experior's Mentor Group - CLOSED (Page 7)

Dave asked about training by HR (heartrate) vs. pace vs. RPE (rate of perceived exertion).  Here are a few thoughts on that.

First, let me emphasize (OK, OK, re-emphasize) that the most important thing is to just get out there and train.  On the run, go easy most of the time, occasionally hard.  On the bike you can shift a bit more to the hard side, and on the swim, a bit more still.  Just following that 'plan' will get you a long, long, way.  But if you want to take your planning to the next level, here are some thoughts about

Measuring Exercise Intensity

Why We Care

In the end, our goal is to train with an appropriate mix of stresses on the body.  When we go hard, we emphasize certain kinds of stress on the body.  When we go easy, we emphasize different kinds of stress.  Both are important.  Well, I'm simplifying greatly, but the point stands:  the benefits of exercise that I've mentioned before, and many that I havn't, are maximized under different stimuli.  So even if we could go 100% all-out all the time in our training, we wouldn't want to.  We would miss out on the benefits of other kinds of stimuli.  And of course we cannot go 100% all out all the time anyway -- we would quickly get injured or burned out.  So for that reason alone, it is important to keep an eye on how much we are stressing the body.

The Problem

But remember that the stresses that 'matter' to our body -- the one's that lead to the repeated bout affect and remodeling -- happen at the cellular and even molecular level.  Unless we're going to have a muscle biopsy after every bout of exercise, we cannot monitor these changes directly.  So we're stuck measuring them indirectly.

Ways to Measure

Setting aside power meters on the bike and other, more exotic, measures of intensity, there are three basic ways to measure how much stress we are putting on our bodies:  rate of perceived exertion, pace, and heart rate.  All of these (and power too) are indirect measures of what we really want to know.  They are all, therefore, capable of leading us astray unless we take care to bear in mind the ways in which they can potentially mislead.

Rate of Perceived Exertion (RPE)

RPE is just how hard it feels to you, translated to a number.  A widely used scale of RPE is the Borg Scale (modified later by the American College of Sports Medicine, but I'll stick with the original; it doesn't really matter what scale you use so long as you have a consistent measure).  The relevant parts of it look like this (below 6 does not count as 'exercise' so I ignore that range here):

RPE	Description	Zone
6-9	Minimal exertion; breathing is easy	1
10-12	Slight increase in rate and depth of breathing; conversation is possible	2
13-14	Breath becomes harder and somewhat less easy to control; conversation is possible, but complete sentences may sometimes be difficult	3
15-16	Breathing is becoming hard and uncomfortable; in well-trained individuals, this is an effort that could be held for around a half-marathon if running; conversation is very challenging	4
17	Breathing is forceful and more rapid; phrases, but probably not complete sentences, are possible	5a
18-19	Breathing is heavy and labored; effort is painful, but in well-trained individuals could be maintained for a 5k run	5b
20	An effort that cannot be sustained for more than about a minute or two	5c

The third column correlates RPE with the 'zones' that endurance athletes typically use in training.  Bear in mind that this is not an exact science.  You will see slight variations on the theme, but something like the above is what people mean by 'RPE'

RPE can be affected by a lot of things that are not really directly connected to the amount of stress you are putting on your body (in the sense described above).  Your mood, the weather, your current nutrition and hydration, time of day and so on, can affect RPE.  The more you pay attention to RPE, the better able you will become to 'read' the signs that your body is giving you during training. It is a good idea to make at least some small note of how hard your effort felt, and if it was especially surprising, then even better to make a note of that.

Pace

Pace is just how fast you are going.  It makes most sense on the run and swim, where it is somewhat easier to control for conditions.  On the bike, it doesn't make much sense to worry a lot about pace as a measure of effort unless you are riding the same route over and over, under the same conditions (wind especially).  For running, I've already posted the McMillan Running Calculator (turn the volume down on your computer before clicking -- sorry I forgot to mention that before!), and I still think that's the best thing to use for pace.  Until you are running 25+ miles per week, stick to the 'endurance workouts', and work on getting your long run pace near or even a little below the fast end of his range.  Save your recovery jogs for your shorter runs, and your bread-and-butter runs should be done at the pace of 'easy runs'.

As for the swim, a standard tool to use here is 't-pace' (short for 'threshold pace).  There are two tests commonly used.  The first is a 1000m time trial.  (You can do this in yards too, if your pool is in yards.)  Just warm up, then swim 1000m at the hardest effort that you can consistently hold for the distance.  You should finish knowing that you have little or nothing left in the tank.  Your average per 100 for the 1000m is your t-pace.  (Example: if it took you 20 minutes then your t-pace is 2:00/100m.)  The other test is to warm up then swim 3x300 with 30 seconds rest between the 300s.  As before, you should be going as hard as you can and still maintain pace.  You want to do it so that the 300s are within 10-20 second of each other.  Again, your average per 100 over the 3 300s is your t-pace.  My view is that this second test results in a t-pace that is somewhat faster than your 'real' t-pace, but as long as you are consistent, it probably doesn't make a huge difference.  I suspect that 4x300 would actually be a more accurate test, but let's set that point aside.

Zones line up with swim t-pace more or less like this:

Zone	Swim Pace
1	t-pace + 15-20s per 100; warm-up
2	t-pace + 10s/100
3	t-pace + 5s/100
4	t-pace
5a	t-pace - 5s/100
5b	t-pace - 10s/100
5c	as fast as possible (sprinting)

Again, you will see variations on this theme.  I'm just giving you the basic idea.

Just as for RPE, pace is not an infallible guide to effort.  Some days things click and running 'fast' feels 'easy'.  Other days, running 'slow' feels 'hard'.  Don't be a slave to pace.  If you have a hard day scheduled but you just cannot get up to pace and maintain it, then rethink your plan.  It might be wise to dial back the pace and call that your 'hard' pace for today.  Or maybe you can rearrange things to make today an easy day, and try again tomorrow.  Whatever you do, don't assume that pace is always a good indicator of effort.  Usually it is.  Sometimes it isn't.


Heartrate

Finally, we come to heart rate.  Dave mentioned that he had done some field tests.  For those who don't know, the test is meant to find your "lactate threshold heartrate" (LTHR).  This is your heartrate at the point that the lactate in your muscles gets to a certain level.  (There are actually a few different precise definitions used in the exercise science literature, and we needn't worry about them.)  The point about lactate is simply (and ONLY) this:  it is a pretty good marker for how hard you are working.  (As I said before, it is not responsible for soreness; it is probably not responsible for fatigue; it is probably not responsible for the 'burn' you feel in your muscles when you work them hard for long enough.  Recent studies strongly indicate that it is an innocent bystander in all of these events, and in fact actually supplies energy to certain muscles.  Nonetheless, it remains a good 'marker' for when you are working relatively hard.  Your effort at LT is pretty close to what you can sustain for an hour.

There is a nice article here on BT about the field test, so I won't go into it here.  It is also possible to get a lab test.  These tend to be more accurate because they measure LT directly (often measuring VO2 and maybe some other stuff as well).  Exericse Physiology departments at universities will often do these tests.  Some private gyms or personal trainers will also offer them, but be very very careful.  There is some pretty cheap equipment out there that gives notoriously inaccurate results.  If you're going to plunk down for a test, I'd recommend going to a university or a very reputable training facility that caters to endurance athletes.

Be sure to do separate tests for the bike and the run.  Your LTHR on the bike will be lower than it is on the run.

Once you have your LTHR, you calculate zones from there as:

Run Zones
Zone 1 Less than 85% of LTHR
Zone 2 85% to 89% of LTHR
Zone 3 90% to 94% of LTHR
Zone 4 95% to 99% of LTHR
Zone 5a 100% to 102% of LTHR
Zone 5b 103% to 106% of LTHR
Zone 5c More than 106% of LTHR

Bike Zones
Zone 1 Less than 81% of LTHR
Zone 2 81% to 89% of LTHR
Zone 3 90% to 93% of LTHR
Zone 4 94% to 99% of LTHR
Zone 5a 100% to 102% of LTHR
Zone 5b 103% to 106% of LTHR
Zone 5c More than 106% of LTHR

Again, there are variations on this theme, but the above is a very commonly used set of guidelines.

When training by HR, just as for RPE and pace, you should be aware of the things that can affect your HR, and adjust accordingly.  Some big ones are temperature, sleep, stress, hydration, and nutrition.  Learn how these things affect your HR, and adjust accordingly, but conservatively.  Don't be a slave to the HR monitor.

OK, I've got more to say about this, but I've probably already tried your patience, and I have work to do!

Sorry to hear that Neil.  Sending good wishes to you and your family.

Jan, I have to run for now, but I, and hopefully others as well, will speak to your questions later on.  And don't be afraid to bombard us with questions -- that's the whole point!

Wow, there is a lot of great information on here!! 

Hannah, I bought a new Specialized Allez bike for about $1000.  I love it.  I didn't know much about road bikes when I bought it but I sat on enough of them to know that I loved this one.  I was going to buy a Trek but as soon as I sat on the Specialized I knew it was for me.  I also feel this way with running shoes.  I always end up buying Nikes but I have to try on every other shoe in the place before I settle on the Nikes. 

Neil, I am sorry to hear about your mother-in-law.  My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family at this time. 

Best wishes for your mother-in-law and your family, Neil.
Take care 


 

sorry to hear that your mother in law is ill Neil. Prayers and good thoughts to you and your family.

Every time I read this I am overwhelmed by the wealth of information! I feel like I should take notes.    I have not been remembering to update my training log. I promise I'll get better!  Do you guys usually just update as soon as you walk in the door from a workout?

Neil, my thoughts are with you and your family. Take care of yourself and each other! 

Awesome Michael, thanks so much for the info.
I printed it out so I could read it a few times. Keep the info coming I love it.
As I say to my kids, Knowledge weighs nothing it is the easies thing to carry, learn, learn, and learn some more.
best wishes to your family Neil,

Best wishes neil

You are so right, well, for me anyway ! as soon as i get in i plug the garmin in and download my data, then update here which i use as a personal diary as much as a training log, i like to flik back a few months and read my spelling mistakes !

I love looking at my totals, pace, year to date etc, you will too i am sure one you get into the logging routine !

SORRY GUYS I HAVE TO SHOUT THIS OUT LOAD.........

I HAVE RUN 27.25 MILES IN THE LAST WEEK, THE MOST I HAVE EVER DONE IN A 7 DAY PERIOD !

Who says the Xmas holiday is a time for over indulging on the bad things, I used it as a mini training camp, it was funny at rugby training tonight, i did a 7mile run beforehand and when i got there they all asked had i just run from france or something stupid like that, i seem to be getting a reputation ! if i can motivate others to exercise and be more healthy just by doing so myself, i feel i am helping my family and friends.

x2 (except I don't use a Garmin any more, but liked it when I did).  My trainer rides are literally right in front of the computer (I watch movies or listen to something while on the trainer) and my runs usually end up at my house, so those typically get logged immediately.  Swim -- I remember and log when I get home.

I also like looking back, and it can be useful sometimes.

Fantastic!  Big shout out to T!

Alright, Jan, I'll take a shot at these.  Others should chime in as well.  We've got to be sure Jan is feeling comfortable in her first ocean swim!



OK, confession time.  I've swum in the ocean with nobody there.  I've also swum in the ocean with a family member (wife or parent) walking along on shore.  Honestly, if something were to happen to me, they couldn't save me, but they'd know where to find the body.    Some people think this is irresponsible.  Others don't.  It's a personal decision.  My wife is OK with it (no I don't think she wants me dead!), and that's all that matters to me.  I personally do not think it is more dangerous than lots of other things that we don't think twice about doing, but as I said, this is a personal decision.  Enough on that.

You've swum in open water before, so you are 95% the way there.  I'm about to say a lot, but really you are 95% the way there, and even if you don't get a chance to practice before, your experience in OWS plus being prepared for a few things will get you through it. 

There are three differences: salt, waves (well, waves that can be larger than those we find in lakes), and current (well there can be current in fresh water too, but typically not in lakes apart from the really big ones).

Salt:  You really want to ingest as little saltwater as possible.  Swallowing too much salt water is the cause of many a DNF in triathlons, especially at longer distances.  And if you go make it through, it might not be fun.  Trust me on this one.  (Read my race report for B2B if you want to know the horrid details.)  You can practice this before you get to the ocean.  Pay attention, while you are swimming, to whether water gets in your mouth.  Learn to spit it out.  Learn to breathe so that little to none gets in there in the first place.

Waves:  There are a few issues that waves raise.  First, sighting:  if they are large enough, then you have to time your sighting so that you are on top of a wave.  Or, if timing is difficult, just be prepared to attempt to sight from time to time and see nothing (if you are in the trough of a wave).  No worries -- just sight again at the next opportunity.  Second, breathing.  It will happen that a wave comes up at just the moment that you are trying to breathe, and you will have to abandon the mission.  Don't panic.  You aren't going to run out of air.  Just breathe on the next stroke.  You can practice what this feels like in the pool by turning to breathe and then suddenly deciding not to breathe.  (Try to surprise yourself!)  Put your face back in the water, take a stroke, and breathe normally.  There, that's what it feels like.  Knowing what it feels like will prevent you from panicking.  Third: entering and exiting.  If the swim has you running out against the surf and coming in with the surf, then here's what to do.  Run out until it is deep enough to swim.  (An 'advanced' tactic here is to 'dolphin dive'.  If you want to try that, ask and I'll try to describe it.)  If you encounter a large wave coming at you as you are running or swimming out against the waves, go UNDER it.  If you are running, just dive under it (assuming it is deep enough to dive -- if not then jump over the wave).  If you are swimming, just go down a little and let the wave roll over you.  This might be something to practice in Feb.  As for exiting, if you can body surf and the opportunity presents itself, then do it.  It is by far the fastest way to get to shore.  Otherwise, just swim until your hands touch bottom then stand up and run.

Current:  You should try to find out whether there is likely to be a current where you are swimming and if so, where it is strongest (closer to shore or further out) and what direction it is going.  There's not a lot to do here except to try to stay where it is not strong (if you are swimming against it of course) and accept that swimming against a current is tough and slow.  It can also cause difficulties swimming in a straight line so you might have to sight more often.



No, it is not common.  Race directors typically avoid places where rip tides are common, for a lot of reasons, including safety and insurance.  But sure, it could conceivably happen.  The most important thing to do is not to panic.  You aren't going to be carried out to sea and never seen again.  Remember that there will be people on surfboards and kayaks and probably a motor boat or two.  As long as you don't panic and call for help if you feel that you need it, you'll be fine.  And no it is typically not difficult for an able swimmer to get out of a rip tide.  As you said, go with it until you can comfortably swim out of it.



Entirely up to you.  If you find yourself feeling nervous about people in waves behind you swimming over you, and you think that this will impair your race experience, then cut yourself some slack and move to the newbie wave (I assume it is last?).  You're still doing the same race.  The race director should allow you to move if you request it.

Finally, if you cannot breathe to both sides, it wouldn't be a horrible idea to try to learn.  It is a great skill to have anyway, and it can make breathing much much easier.  (Example:  the waves keep hitting you as you try to breathe.  Just switch sides and breathing will become a piece of cake because your head will shield your mouth from the waves and allow you to breathe.)

Go get it!  You are doing exactly the right thing by thinking about these things now.  Practice what you can in the pool and you will be mentally prepared.

Edited by Experior 2011-01-05 7:47 PM

Nice work T, you are really getting after it!

Yeah I'm in the logging routine, but I JUST got my Garmin (as a Christmas gift yaaaay!) and before that I logged everything in a notebook.  I'm old school like that. :-P  I have to get used to this whole logging online thing.  Much easier to look at things like year to date when you don't have to add it all up by hand!  The joys of technology.  Happy Wednesday everyone!

ETA Oops! Meant to reply to T's post.  And also, GO T!!!!!   

Edited by HannahD 2011-01-05 8:22 PM

Thank you, thank you. This helps a lot and will give me a lot to practice. Glad to know about the salt water, I would not have thought of that. I will also be practicing and thinking about these things in the pool.

Jan

So sorry Neil. Best wishes to you and your family.
Jan

Shout it, T, shout it!  Wooooooooooo!  Nice work!

Michael, your advice pieces have been excellent and I loved learning more about swimming a race in an ocean.  Even though I have yet to get any training in for 2011, I know I am in the right place with this group to learn and improve.   Good stuff!

Michael, I did a oly with a sea swim in july and suffered from ramp half way through the swim and then constantly on the bike and run, as a result i did not enjoy the race or perform as i had hoped.

At the time I put this down to a busy day before the race when i did a ton of gardening and was probably dehydrated and not nutritionally prepared for the race.

Can you please shed a bit more light on the salt issue, could this have been my problem ?

Thanks for all your woohoo's guys ! I am loving training at the moment, i am playing rugby saturday, a bit worried i may pick up an injury, i want to play so its a risk i must be willing to accept,

Wow!  This is so great!  I'm thrilled for you, it's inspiring.  keep up the good work.

If you went in already dehydrated, swallowing saltwater would have made it worse.

People think that being dehydrated means that you don't have enough water in your system, and of course that is the meaning of the term DE-hydrated.  But the real problem is that the concentration of salts in your system gets too strong.  It's this concentration (more precisely, 'osmolality' in physiology-speak) that is crucial to the well-functioning of your body.  One way for this to happen is to stop drinking (or not drink enough), but another is to take in too much salt.  The concentration of salt in sea water is sufficiently high that if you take in too much (and it doesn't take much to be 'too much') you will have a very hard time getting your system back in balance.  If it gets bad enough, you'll feel nauseous, and eventually some sort of 'purging' could take place -- it's the body's way of getting rid of as much of that excess salt as possible.

It's hard to say, of course, but sure, I could believe that salt had something to do with feeling bad during a race.

This prompts me to write something more about nutrition during races.  Not tonight, but some time soon.

I hope everyone's training is going well.  I'll check in tomorrow to logs and see what's going on.

I'm excited as I was able to swim twice this week pain-free.  (I injured my shoulder last fall and made it worse by continuing to train for my IM.  I haven't swum since early November.)  I'm taking teeny tiny baby steps to try to make sure that the injury doesn't return, but it sure does feel great to get back into the pool!

Let us know how it's going everyone!