Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED (Page 70)

CRAIG -

Maybe it's your pes anserinus -- the "goosefoot tendons". The word "Anser" is the genus name for most geese, and the term pes anserinus comes from three tendons that come together to resemble, roughly, a goose's foot, medial side and below the kneecap. Now you know!

At least, I THINK that's the story ---- but please confirm it with a google search. When doing this, see what is siad about it medically, and if it fits your symptoms. Every year I have one or two brief flare-ups of mine, and they go away with a litle ice and a little love. It is not a deal-breaker, I don't think -- at least not to the extent that the Achilles can be.

Also, though, don't take my word on that, either. Just do a check first to make sure I'm not a complete quack about this.

(Being a quack might be appropriate, though, it dealing with the goosefoot tendons. Quack, quack!)

(No. Wait. Ducks quack and geese HONK. Am I am complete honk, then, in the info I present here? Honk? Honk, honk?)

CRAIG again -

All caught up on my log, although if I get on the trainer tonight while watching the Bruins, there will be that to add to today's entries. Thanks for prodding me about this; I now feel suitably righteous!

So just to be clear does this make you a Canada Goose?

Just a quick search and that sounds about the right area. I was pushing a little hard at times the last while. I'll back off a little on the intensity and just do the time but that's hard to do with a clock staring you in the face.

I tend to figure out time per 1/4mi and how far I will go at a given pace and time and then adjust. Well if I go this much faster then i get cover this many miles.


Edited by ckallpoints 2011-02-18 6:19 PM

HELLO EVERYONE, its been a while.

I've been insanely busy and as such, haven't been able to keep up.  However, after a couple weeks away, I finally made it to the pool today.  I've got a small concern / question.

I've been working on bilateral breathing, which is something I felt really comfortable with when I was younger, but was finding myself a little winded as I got back into swimming this last year.  Recently, I've found that getting enough air hasn't been a problem, so I've been working on breathing every third stroke.  In comes another issue, my shoulders.  I've noticed that my shoulders give me a little shot of pain when I breath. When I breath left, my right shoulder groans with the strain of stabilizing my body in the water, and vice versa.  Is this a normal, getting started ache, that will go away with consistent swimming, or something mechanical that I need to fix?

I had the same problem when I started swimming again last summer, and just swam through the pain.  After a couple months is was down to a pretty dull pain that only showed up after about 1000 meters.  Now, with the time off it seems to be back,  more intense, and in both shoulders, thanks to breathing on both sides.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. If the above doesn't make a lot of sense I apologize, I'm running on about 4 hours of sleep a night right now.

Steve,

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you. I read, I processed, but forgot the last and very key step of responding. So here it goes.

I didn't mention running because I'm not part of any sort of group that has its own workouts. So my training for that isn't really limited by anything and thus there is no pre-existing structure that a tri training plan would interfere with. Yet. I am thinking of joining the local tri club here for the summer because they have track workouts, but I'm not nearly fit enough for those workouts to make a difference, so for now I'm working on endurance and distance, which I can do on my own from a variety of plans available on the internet.

I was somewhat worried about merging tri training with my run/walk interval program (Couch to 10k), but I'd had this concern last year and you suggested to merge the two by keeping the run/walk intervals the way C210K suggests for that given workout and substituting in the distance of the tri plan instead. So if C210K calls for 5 min jog, 1 minute walk x 7 but the tri training is supposed to be a 20 minute base run, I run those 20 minutes according to the 5'/1' jog/walk structure.

The bike and swim have thrown me for a loop since I actually enjoy biking on its own and sometimes wanna just bike instead of worrying about intervals and hills and all that. And with swimming, like I mentioned, I have a masters swim coach whose workouts can't really be modified.

Currently, I'm swimming a little less than a mile twice a week. That distance varies depending on my speed, since the workouts are 1 hour long. So once I get faster, I should be swimming longer. I haven't looked at the book from which I'm planning on getting my training plans, but if I remember correctly from last year, not many (if any) workouts were more than a mile, at least in the beginning, so I should be all set. I may be swimming longer than recommended right now, and I do notice I'm getting a bit quicker (this past couple weeks excluded, but I'll mention that in my next post) so hopefully the instruction from a coach will outweigh the plan's drills when it comes to improvements in speed.

I have noticed, though, that some people in the class do ask the coach for more specific workouts so maybe if I notice my distances/workouts deviate too much from what the plan calls for then I may talk to the coach about it. Also, apparently, once the tri season picks up, a lot of amateur and even pro athletes join this Master's group so if I mention I'm training for a tri, they'll hopefully already be prepared for those kinds of workouts, although I won't be anywhere near the other triathletes' speeds or distances. For now, I think I'll stick with going swimming twice a week and hope that it's enough to get me trained for an Oly. Like I said, I'm not looking to optimize speed for any specific distance but rather to get faster in swimming in general.

And now biking...oh, biking. Your compromise seems manageable, although I hate compromising. Hmf. I won't be doing a plan that calls for more than two bike workouts a week, so if I do end up doing more just out of sheer pleasure then I guess those could be my fun rides. And adding in a few intervals on a "fun" ride shouldn't be too big of a problem. Same goes for a tempo ride. I'm most bothered by having to find hills (plan calls for those once in a while, especially in the beginning) for those kinds of intervals. I usually do enough during the course of a ride, but I never time or plan them in advance. It's usually a crap-shoot if I do hills or not, and they're randomly spaced. But I guess I can look for something and plan in advance a few rides a month. That shouldn't kill me.

So, looks like my worries are ironed out, at least for now. As always, thanks Steve. You rock! That definitely eases my worries/concerns.

Kasia

Hey DuncanOH - Your swim breathing sounds like mine. Every 3rd stroke seems to work like a charm for me UNLESS I'm doing any sort of drill work and then it may be every 6 strokes.
Once in a while I have some achey pain in my shoulders and from my experience it is either - using paddles and fatigued; reaching too far to the outside when I'm at the furthest distance underwater in the 'pull' OR I'm crossing over too far inside as in across my body instead of keeping my arm in line with my shoulder. Sometimes it has helped me to get the right feel by swimming over the pool lines (on the bottom) and use the line as a guide to keep my hands on each side as I stroke.
I'm sure our fearless leader, Steve, will have some insight to which I'll be interested to read too. 

Crazy... Several schools closed and I'm thankful ours didn't because then I would have had to stay home from work. Ironically, a study was just released by Fordham Univ. that reviewed the 50 States and their teaching standards - particularly History and Science. WI scored a big fat F in both subjects because curriculum is largely left to the districts and there is no standardization. Oh well...  

SARAH -

I had no idea that Wisconsin ranked that low in any aspect of education. With no real knowledge at all, I just assumed it would be in the upper quarter nationwide.

I will have to track down that Fordham report, so thanks for clueing me in about it. Even though I've been retired for a few years now, this education stuff still matters to me. I don't eta, drink, and sleep it, but I try to follow it whenever I can. It's sort of my version of what many older people do -- start reading obituaries regularly. Stretching the example some, it's not so completely removed, the compariosn between people dying and education (as we have known it) dying.

Maybe Jeff has some thoughts on the situation in Texas where Gov. Rick Perry and the Texas State Leg is looking to cut about $4.8 billion from the schools over the next two years. This is in a state that currently ranks 47th in the nation in literacy, 49th in verbal SAT scores, and 46th in math scores. I just don't know how he and the state officials can get away with that proposal, and why everyone with kids isn't up in arms about it. Of course, that's tragic enough, but even worse is the alternative -- that the average adult, even those with school-age children, doesn't really care about education anymore.

Ack. I'm getting depressed thinking about this! Most of my teaching career was in private schools (including two years in Texas), and the last 19 were on an Indian rez where the funding was fairly secure, so I managed to navigate my teaching years without geeting burdened too much by stripped funds or oversized classrooms. As for the latter, I will say without equivocation that they maybe worked well enough when I was in grade school in the 50s in classes with about 35 others, but that similar scenarios in this day and age are simply a recipe for teaching and learning disaster. Kids aren't the same, family units aren't the same, the world and its tempatations aren't the same, and to expect teachers to teach effectively and students to learn even adequately in large classrooms is (sadly) ludicrous.

What are the ages of your kids? And, for the big question --- is your district one of the ones that is better regarded and serviced?



Mama said there'd be days like this..........

SARAH again -

As for the tri-related stuff (That's why we're here isn't it? And I apologize for ambushing the site for other matters!), that's a good swim assessment you gave Duncan. I especially like your technique of swim over the lane lines as a way to keep your hands where they should be. I had never heard of that before, but it makes good sense.

I'll comment more on some of your other thoughts, as well as Duncan's concerns, shortly.

SARAH once more -

The three reasons you give for your own periodic shoulder aches are all valid -- especially the first and third. At least, that's how it works for most people with shoulder woes, but even your second one is a potential culprit. You are doing really well to be able to identify those as causative factors!

The paddle aspect is quite contentious, as you are probably well aware. I used to use paddles much more than I do now, but a shoulder impingement about 3 or 4 years ago has made me wary of them. When the impingement actually manifested itself, I was NOT using paddles, although over time they may have contributed to the impingement.

There are two raps on paddles -- they put too much stress on the shoulder, and they actually promote a poor pull. I am less convinced of the latter, although if I'm not fully mindful when I use my own paddels, I can get very sloppy with my pull. As for the former, though, I can actually feel some tendency towards shoulder stress, especially when I use larger paddles -- which I no longer do. My go-to ones the past couple of years have been Finis Freestyler, and previously I used a fairly small pair from Speedo. At present, I use paddles once every 4 or 5 swims, and evn then for no more than about 200m total. I'm not exactly sure anymore what all i expect out of swimming with them!

Your third culprit - crossing over too far was akin to what brought on my impingement. In my case it was trying to imitate an olympic swimmer I saw on a video, soemone whose recovery was quite high and very close to her body. In fact, it was a thing of beauty -- from behind, her arm exited right next her body, travelled right along her body above the water, and entered the water in front of her, all keeping that line seemingly perfectly straight. So, what does Mr. Inflexibility here do? Of course! he hops in the water and tried to do as she did.....and within five strokes my shoulder was sore. And then it just kept getting sorer and sorer, and the upshot was that, two-plus months and many physio sessions later, I returned to swimming.

ANYHOW, that was because I didn't keep my shoulder open during that movement, and that works similarly when one crosses over in front of them on the entry. The shoulder can rotate further outwards than it can inwards, and I think that if anything, people should err more on the side of having entry further outside than inside.

As for your second culprit, if I interpret it the way you meant it, you are finding that when your hand is both deeper and at its greatest "reach", your shoulders can respond. If so, that makes sense just in terms of greater load -- more water to push back against. In a way, it might be like nature's own paddel for you, a rsistance tool that works too effectively and thus gets your shoulders yelping at you.

Finally, I read somewhere once that virtually all non-elite swimmers think their hands enter the water much further outside than they actually do. I've sen that in myself when I have been videotaped --- I SWEAR my hands were about three inches further out than what the video showed! And for my, this is more pronounced with my right arm than with my left.

Just some thoughts; carry on with your day!

DUNCAN -

It sure has been awhile; I've missed you!

Now, about that breathing issue of yours! First, though, see my above posts to Sarah, and what I say about my shoulder impingement. I mention that here because if you have soreness in both shoulders, it is time to back off some. With my impingement, I was out of freestyle for a couple of months. I guess I wnet once or twice a week and did some kicking, and I think after a while I was able to do some light sculling, but other than that I was the shelf for way too long. So, just a word to the wise!

Sometimes when I try bilateral, my right shoulder can get ache-y. I normally breathe to the right, so for me to breathe left is like you -- an effort to keep my body stabilized. And after a gazillion strokes with that right arm accustomed to the right-side breathing, it is now working beyond it's normal range-of-motion, due to a different body roll for it to adjust to.

I think that waht happens in the attempts to stabilize when breathing left is that I over-rotate, or at least rotate enough so that the right arm is pulling deeper than normal. A deep pull creates and/or is the result of lots of problems -- a severely dropped elbow, working through too much water, the unfortunate beneficiary of an entry that is not normal and that sets up the pull for failure.

One thing that has really worked well for me this off-season as I have worked hard on bilateral is to speed up my stroke. This has produced four good results:
(1) Allows less time for body stabilization.
(2) Allows breathing more frequently.
(3) Establishes a better rhythm for my overall stroke cycle
(4) (I just forgot this one!)

I am now more commonly doing 25m in 22/23 strokes, whereas it used to be 18-20 --- that's how much I am trying to speed up my stroke. I can keep my stroke together at this stroke-count for unilateral breathing, but I really have to be careful about not letting it fall apart with my still-evolving bilateral.

I recommend that you scrap bilateral for now, at least until your shoulders stop hurting. And then when you return to it, don't go into it with Full Intent. Maybe try breathing to the left side every fourth or fifth breath, so your pattern might be 2-2-2-2-3-2-2-2-3......etc. ROGER posted quite a while ago that in races it is good to breathe whenever you need to and wherever you need to (that is, left or right), and I am playing around with that quite a bit, too. It's kind of fun to do, and keeps me on the edge of my breath-control. Kind of like swim-breath fartleks!

Are you exhaling fully on your "off" side? That is another thing I need to focus on when breathing bilaterally or concentratedly to the left. It might seem that an exhale is an exhale is an exhale, but not for me. I was once told that the mindset for breathing every 3rd stroke as opposed to every 2nd stroke shouldn't be "less chances for air", but rather "more time to exhale". That is, the emphasis is on the importance of the exhale and being ready for the breath.

Other thoughts (I'm sorry these aren't well-organized!) include being as relaxed as possible, which for me happens when I increase my stroke count and thus don't have to struggle so much with the stabilization aspect, and working hard to turn my head as little to the left as I do to the right. Of course, if I had equal rotation both ways that would happen naturally, and the fact that I don't explains why my left-side breathing ends up being more exaggerated.

I'm going to post this now before it gets lost do to a power outage or something, as there are big winds here today!

DUNCAN again -

Let me know if I hit on enough of your concerns okay?

But before I leave......

My swim sessions nowadays are not near as long as they used to be, or aren't the pure straight-swimming efforts that all of my open-water swims are from late-May into October. That is, I am strictly doing technique work now, and while that carries some risks in introducing new elements into my repertoire, at least I'm not hammering big yards, or even aiming for speed. The upshot of this is that my shoulders are gemerally very happy with me (KNOCK ON WOOD!!!!), and if you are doing long session or hard sessions, it might help your shoulders if you dialed duration and/or intensity back some. Just a thought!

Glub, glub!

GANG!

On the news front:

(1) In an attempt to break the gridlock in my proposed race schedule (this happens every year....), I finally signed up for my first race of 2011 -- Cayuga Lake Triathlon, Ithaca, NY, Aug 7. This is an Intermediate distance, slightly longer than oly on the bike. I have had this one in my sights for a several years, and more than once it has filled before I figured it would. Last night I saw that it was at 274 out of 300, so after a night's sleep I decided to go for it. That now forces issues elsewhere, namely on the Fronhofer Tool Triathlon the day before. Last year I ad a ball doing the "Double", which was the oly at 7a.m. or so and the sprint at 2p.m. or so, but that won'tr happen this year. I MIGHT do the sprint and then drive to Ithaca for Cayuga Lake the next day, but they're about 200 miles apart and it would be a long traingulation drive going SE to Fron, then WSW to Cayuga, then NE back home. I used to do that sort of thing a few years ago; I've now grown older and wiser!

So, that's one down and about 9-11 more to go!

I love race logos, and CLT has a great one -- sort of an art deco take on a waterfall past which the run twice travels. Go to www.ithacatriathlonclub.org, click on the race link, and there it is. I hope it features prominently on the t-shirt!

(2) Our daughter got engaged last week. We knew it was coming, as he had flown up here two weeks ago to talk with me about it (I didn't think that sort of thing happened any more!). He flew to Sydney last Saturday and sprung it on Jane within an hour or two of landing.

Talk about courtships! They met at boarding school in '98, and were close friends until becoming GF/BF in spring '02, as seniors. She went to college near Utica, NY, he wnet nar Charloote, NC, and they stayed together through that. Jane moved to NYC right after graduation, which was handy because Peter is from NYC. They lived separately until this past October, when they ditched their roommates and moved in together. Needless to say, Lynn and I have a loooooong time to get used to Jane and Peter being an item!

Wedding? Maybe next May, she thinks? I told her it better not get in the way of my race schedule!!!*



*In May '05, my race at Columbia Triathlon was badly compromised by two flats. All I wanted was to avenge myslef the following year........but wouldn't you know it, race day '06 was the SAME DAY as Jane's graduation. Grrr. Talk about moral/ethical decisions!

Okay that was hard.
Not pleased with 3:54 but it was a very challenging/technical course, bordering on an adventure race more than a trail run. Advertised as the toughest trail run in Texas.
Aerobically I felt fine (swimming) my ankle ached as ussual but I mangaed to stumble countless times and fall twice. Each time I caught my toe on something, either foot, it would shoot pain up my leg and slow me to a limp for a few seconds to a couple of minutes and this started happening more and more frequently as I got tired. Some of the climbs were real leg burners, reducing runners to more of a climbing, scrambling kind of thing, even a mild little rock face to climb up. I was getting so anxious about my ankle/leg I started walking the very technical sections real carefully. I was very toasted toward the end, my two Gu packets I consumed had abandoned me and I resolved to take a water bottle of my own next time. It was only about 70* but I was hot. I was in a hurry because my wife was there with my truck and needed to leave to go to work, I would have to find a ride home from someone. I barely made it and we jumped in the truck as I iced my ankle and began to feel better.
 This race had a 50 mile, marathon, half marathon (13.7 to be exact-no extra charge) and a five mile race. Mimi said she saw lots of runners scraped up and cut.
 All in all it was a good event, too bad I couldn't stick around and take in the scene more.
My ankle is feeling better, I have some soreness in my quads that I haven't experienced in a long time from the steep climbs. 

Steve - thanks for the swim info and I can just see it now....you imitating that woman trying to get faster! Reminds me of when I was a kid watching Popeye. One character, that guy who'd eat hamburgers all the time but 'gladly pay you tomorrow', would eat that hamburger with gumption and speed! So I carried that same gusto he had when eating his hamburger to when I'd have to eat stuff like brussel sprouts LOL ...and I'd get 'em down a bit faster. 

Anyhow - My son is 7. I have listened to a local district superintendent give a presentation regarding the districts financial outlook and strategic planning for the coming years. It was a grim report in terms of escalating costs and what if any recourses are available to remedy the lack of money. Unfortunately for my family, our particular town was last in one area of testing and for the bulk of other areas just in the middle to lower end of the pack. I've also seen another report (prior to all this protesting) that also alluded to the need to force teacher to pay in more to health etc.. and went on to suggest that collective bargaining become obsolete. 

I commend teachers and I've often thought I'd like to teach. However, esp. in this state, times have been hard with company lay offs, closing etc... and I'm not a big fan of what unions can do to potentially strangle business productivity. (My husband is a mailman so we have some colorful debates) I personally would want to keep my job and tighten my belt rather than look for a new one that would give anywhere close to the same pay, solid benefits, holidays, summers, etc.. The job market is highly competitive and over flowing with very qualified and many times over qualified people. (I lost a job in 2006,  I was not able to find the same level of pay, seniority etc... and in fact had to 'make due' with entry level work. Now I work part time and if it weren't for the flexibility it offers, I'd likely not work for what I am paid. But it brings in some cash while allowing me to concentrate on my family more).

Talk about getting off topic!
There was something else I was going to say but now can't remember...I'll have to read the posts again because I'm having a brain fart. LOL

Edited by BbMoozer 2011-02-19 8:16 PM

Now I remember! That triathlon in Ithaca looks awesome! Running by a waterfall and ICE CREAM at the finish! How cool is THAT?!?
And congrats on your daughters engagement. It made my heart smile to read that your future son-in-law made the trek to ask for her hand. Although my husband did not do that, I know my father would have been tickled and it would earned my husband some points on the cool dude chart.

And that article :  http://www.edexcellence.net/publications-issues/publications/the-state-of-state-us.html 

Thanks Sarah and Steve!  I'll see how my shoulders  feel on the next swim.  And congrats on the great family news Steve.  That's exciting!

Well, off to bed with me.  Gotta catch a few zzzz's before my daughters 5am feeding.

GANG!

My, it's been a quiet couple of days since I was last here, with just four posts to reflect upon. I apologize for my own absence, but Lynn and I have been busy filling in time together before she leaves in a few hours for a month in Oz, and when not doing that she has either commandeered the computer or has shuit it down so as to keep the phone line open. Once she's gone, I'll have free rein here for a whole month. Wheeeee!

JEFF -

You're one tough cat, baby, one tough cat!

Trail runs are one thing I avoid; add on "adventure race" fetaures, and I shield my eyes and turn away entirely! So, full props to you for doing the thing despite your slightly compromised ankle. Mercy!

Fun report to read, though, and I'm just curious why you didn't hang around afterwards. Did you just want to get home and jump-start the complete recovery process?

Downhills are real quad-burners.......although having said that I must add that I have never suffered screaming quads. That's probably another mini-torture that is just waiting to ambush me at some point, but at least for now -- and for whatevere reason -- it hasn't happened. Take notes for me, okay?

Switching topics, I watched a two-hour documentary (don't know who produced it) on the SMU football debacles from the 80s. I was there ahen the big hammer came down, but missed the first couple of penalties and the sorta regrowth of the program. The documuntary was well done, and had lots of commentary from guys I hasd forgotten about -- Norm Hitzges and Skip Bayless, primarily. I had also forgotten the role that Bill Clements played in it......not to mention having forgotten about him entirely. Boy, he was one arrogant SOB in facing questions at the time of NCAA inquiries!

We know Eric Dickerson wnrt on to have a terrific career, but less so for Craig James. As for Lance McIlhenny ---- did he ever play in the NFL. I know he was on the quite small side, but that even prevent him from being drafted?

Take care of your battered and beleagured body, Jeff!

My wife had to go to work and we came together in my pickup, so we had to rush off or leave me to find a ride home.

Here is an article about him reflecting on that time:
http://www.ncaatop25.com/smu.htm

I think he is still in real estate.

Sore calves today, experimented with an ice bath yesterday-my first. Still waiting for results to be posted.

SARAH -

I try to imitate LOTS of swimmers, and never seem to get anywhere with it. At least in most cases, however, I don't end up hurting myself!

I am a real pool voyeur, and if someone seems to have good form I will submerge myself at an end and watch them underwater as they approach. I keep expecting someone to take umbrage and accuse me of being a true voyeur and having me hauled off. ("Honest, Officer, I was just watching her catch and her pull!")

Given your history and your husband's job, I'm not surprised that your discussions are sometimes colorful! I too have problems with unions, but they come more along the lines of protectionism (I think that's the word I want here) of members who clearly cannot do the job any longer. I have to admit that the world is full of teachers who just cannot do the job any longer, but they have that position for however long they want it. Up here in Ontario, anyway, the teacher colleges continue to produce teachers......but they can't find jobs and many/most of them drift off elsewhere. And in Lynn's work, which is with the federal gov't, the scene is rife with people who manage to use every loophole they can to take massive amounts of time off work. The only way they can get terminated is by some truly egregious offense, stuff that actually almost borders on the criminal. As I said before, I'm just glad I was not unionized, but that's mostly because I like making my own decisions. I definitely wouldn't ever want to be forced into doing an action that I felt I couldn't morally live with.

I am very sorry that your school district isn't performing well, and I guess you are holding out for some positive change within the next year or so. I hope for your sake or his that he at least gets good teachers. That is what is often missed in these reports, that even in struggling schools and districts there are teachers who are superb. May he get a whole run of those types for the next 10-12 years!

And many thanks for the link to that article. Now that is about to leave, I will actually have the time to devote to it!

Well we got in last night from Atlanta and my daughters cheer team came in 3rd out of 9 in her division.  They were great, I feel it was the best they did all year. They cheered on Sat and Sun.  The 2 teams that finished in front of them had a higher level of diffuculity in their routine.  Once I can get the video off my phone and to my computer I will post it for anyone who would like to see it.  Brenda, what college did you coach at?

What do you guys eat before a workout?  I ate breakfast but got busy around the house.  Now I am starting to get hungry again but I also am about to leave for a swim workout.  I am thinking a banana and an apple on my way to the pool. advice please.

Daniel,

I usually grab a banana or some small convenient fruit/yogurt before heading out for a swim workout. I swim in the early mornings, so I don't get up early enough to grab a proper breakfast, digest, and then exercise. So usually I have something small to hold me over for the hour-long swim and then indulge when I get home/head to work afterward.

Kasia

Hey Steve, as for the crazy tree killer, not all Alabama Crimson Tide Fans are like that, about 99.9% are and then you have the normal folks.  I was told this guy was a whack job, he named his kids Crimson and Bear. I can see naming your dog, cat or even goldfish that but not your kids.