BT Development Mentor Program Archives » GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring Rss Feed  
Moderators: alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 27
 
 
2009-04-28 8:48 AM
in reply to: #2072085

User image

Veteran
187
100252525
Northern Virginia
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
What are recommendations for pre-race taper? As my workouts usually top out at 30-45 minutes should I even be concerned? My month of training looks like some people's weekends.

Also, do you wear your HRM for a race and try and keep the same HR goals?

Thanks.
Matthew


2009-04-28 9:47 AM
in reply to: #2072085

User image

Extreme Veteran
566
5002525
Southern California
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
G- how was the trip??? Based on your twitter pics you were riding in some beautiful country. Solo trip or did the family come along? That van is hardcore!
2009-04-28 5:43 PM
in reply to: #2072085

User image

Extreme Veteran
566
5002525
Southern California
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
Today:

52m 56s4.18 miles12m 40s/Mi
Avg HR: 139
Max HR: 160

Tried to keep my HR under 150 and stick to 5:1, had to walk a bunch but kept the HR in line much better today, felt good
2009-04-28 8:49 PM
in reply to: #2072085

User image

New user
70
2525
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
Thanks for the info on the bike, G.  Out of curiosity -- how tall are you?  Weight?

So, is it safe to say that at 6'1" I would always be better with road geometry, or would I consider tri geometry with increased flexibility?  Also -- what about a Trek TTX with a little more forgiveness in the angles?

Workouts today for me:
Rode  this morning, average 125-130 for 45 minutes.  Strength trained tonight with JR (Strength coach) and we re-vamped the workout.  Good stuff, and getting stronger....

Off to outdoor education camp with my son tomorrow (chaperoning) for a couple of days... fun times, little sleep and probably a nice hike up in the pines -- nice change of workout venue!

ken
2009-04-28 8:52 PM
in reply to: #2072085

User image

Veteran
283
100100252525
Canton, Michigan
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

Gordo, thanks for the info on running and shin splints. I went to a running store here in Ann Arbor and the owner is a track coach, when I mentioned medial posting he set me up in a shoe that seems to be doing the trick. I also took some advise from Babs and Suzy, fast cadence and softer surface. I ran  8 miles on Sat. with no issues from my shins, my longest run ever. It was awesome, slow but AWESOME! I really want to do a half mary in Oct. and now I am starting to think that it is very possible. Babs, thanks for the inspire.

 

Another question, I have a new wet suit that I have not worn yet. My husband got me a Zoot Zenith(I look like Bat Girl in it)  I have heard that it is a good idea to soak it before you wear it. How long and how far in advance should I do this? I plan on taking it to the pool Fri and giving it a try. The temps here in MI are starting to warm up and locale BTers are starting to talk about OWS. Oh boy, what have I gotten myself into

 

Karen

 

 

2009-04-28 11:06 PM
in reply to: #2114988

User image

Extreme Veteran
680
500100252525
Boulder, CO
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
mtntord - 2009-04-28 7:48 AM What are recommendations for pre-race taper? As my workouts usually top out at 30-45 minutes should I even be concerned? My month of training looks like some people's weekends. Also, do you wear your HRM for a race and try and keep the same HR goals? Thanks. Matthew


You won't need much of a taper if you are on a lower volume program -- capping the workouts at 30-45 minutes and being careful with anything sustained in the final ten days should work well for you.

HRM -- yes, great tool for racing.  Work backwards from what you think you might be able to sustain for the run -- aim to be about 10 bpm lower on the bike and a further 10 bpm lower on the swim.  That will help you learn to finish strongly and you'll benefit from the run giving the greatest return for increased effort.



2009-04-28 11:10 PM
in reply to: #2115225

User image

Extreme Veteran
680
500100252525
Boulder, CO
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
cjhild - 2009-04-28 8:47 AM G- how was the trip??? Based on your twitter pics you were riding in some beautiful country. Solo trip or did the family come along? That van is hardcore!


Trip was great -- TON of driving for me -- so going to adjust the approach in the future.  Had speedy mtn biker along as well as his girlfriend, who is very speedy elite triathlete.

I have a client coming over from the UK tomorrow and we'll be in Moab this weekend with Mon/Tues in Capital Reef.  Going to do the "red loop" on Sunday...

http://skinnytireevents.com/images/stories/PDFs/MCT2008%20Map%20&%20Elevations.pdf

The van is really good for mobile training camps.

2009-04-28 11:13 PM
in reply to: #2117152

User image

Extreme Veteran
680
500100252525
Boulder, CO
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
Ken in AZ - 2009-04-28 7:49 PM Thanks for the info on the bike, G.  Out of curiosity -- how tall are you?  Weight?

So, is it safe to say that at 6'1" I would always be better with road geometry, or would I consider tri geometry with increased flexibility?  Also -- what about a Trek TTX with a little more forgiveness in the angles?

Workouts today for me:
Rode  this morning, average 125-130 for 45 minutes.  Strength trained tonight with JR (Strength coach) and we re-vamped the workout.  Good stuff, and getting stronger....

Off to outdoor education camp with my son tomorrow (chaperoning) for a couple of days... fun times, little sleep and probably a nice hike up in the pines -- nice change of workout venue!

ken


I'm 6-1 and have ranged anywhere from 160-200 as an adult.  Right now in the 168-172 range.  Will likely keep going up if I am able to string together a few solid weeks of powerlifting.  My training camps are fairly catabolic when training shoulder-to-shoulder with clients so tough to build muscle.

Road vs Tri -- you'll get as many answers as there are people that read the internet -- it really depends.  There are very, very smart/experienced people that completely disagree with each other.  Shoot me an email if you want a link to a presentation that Dr. Jeff Shilt gave at our Tucson camp.  ***Open offer to all BT'ers***

2009-04-28 11:18 PM
in reply to: #2117161

User image

Extreme Veteran
680
500100252525
Boulder, CO
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
twohearted - 2009-04-28 7:52 PM

Gordo, thanks for the info on running and shin splints. I went to a running store here in Ann Arbor and the owner is a track coach, when I mentioned medial posting he set me up in a shoe that seems to be doing the trick. I also took some advise from Babs and Suzy, fast cadence and softer surface. I ran  8 miles on Sat. with no issues from my shins, my longest run ever. It was awesome, slow but AWESOME! I really want to do a half mary in Oct. and now I am starting to think that it is very possible. Babs, thanks for the inspire.

 

Another question, I have a new wet suit that I have not worn yet. My husband got me a Zoot Zenith(I look like Bat Girl in it)  I have heard that it is a good idea to soak it before you wear it. How long and how far in advance should I do this? I plan on taking it to the pool Fri and giving it a try. The temps here in MI are starting to warm up and locale BTers are starting to talk about OWS. Oh boy, what have I gotten myself into

Karen



Great to hear that you found some relief -- keep your rehab exercises rolling even when symptoms disappear -- it's like antibiotics!

Wetsuit soak -- absolutely but... soak it by swimming in it (I'm serious).  The BlueSeventy.Com website has a great article about tips for putting on a wetsuit -- that will help as well...

http://www.blueseventy.com/docs/BS_FIT_CHART__08.pdf

2009-04-29 12:05 AM
in reply to: #2117399

User image

New user
70
2525
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
THanks G... I sent an email through EC's contact page.  Hope that gets to you.  If not, PM me an email addy.

ken
2009-04-29 8:43 AM
in reply to: #2117433

User image

Extreme Veteran
680
500100252525
Boulder, CO
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
Ken in AZ - 2009-04-28 11:05 PM THanks G... I sent an email through EC's contact page.  Hope that gets to you.  If not, PM me an email addy.

ken


The home page stuff comes straight to me via gordon at endurancecorner dot com.

Got you message and just replied.



2009-04-29 8:58 AM
in reply to: #2072085

User image

Extreme Veteran
566
5002525
Southern California
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

Today:

35m1350.00 yards-----
 

100 swim
50 pull
50 kick
50 finger drag
50 fist
4x25
2x50
2x75
2x100
300
2x50
100 cooldown

G- is there anything I can do on the bike when going up a hill to keep the HR down?  on the steeper hills I drop into my lowest gear (I only have a double) and still see my HR climbing.  Do I just not worry about it and let it come down after cresting the hill?

On a run when considering HR should I be most concerned with my average HR when looking at the session afterwards, or should I be more concerned about the HR at specific times during the run?  I try to keep a close eye on the HR during the run so that I am not getting too high.

Thanks.

2009-04-29 10:23 AM
in reply to: #2114585

User image

Extreme Veteran
566
5002525
Southern California
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
GordoByrn - 2009-04-27

Fun to look back and our predictions over time.


So G, are you fast enough?
2009-04-29 11:54 AM
in reply to: #2072085

Expert
626
50010025
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

My race is coming up May 10th. I am thinking about getting in a long ride w/some tough intervals tomorrow or Friday - about 10 days out - and that would be my last long workout before the race. Anticipating for the race about :20 swim/1:10 bike/:30 run, T = 2 hours. Therefore this last long bike ride would be about 2 hours. Does that make sense to do that long ride at this point? I haven't had a continuous 2 hr workout yet this season. Definitely need to avoid trying to make up for lost time but want to have a solid workout that lasts the anticipated duration of the race.


That being said, I am definitely going in to this race a little under prepared, especially in the run. Well, prepared to have fun, yes, that I'm ready for.



Edited by BabsVa 2009-04-29 12:19 PM
2009-04-29 2:10 PM
in reply to: #2072085

Member
19

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
BabsVa - I won't comment on your training plans - Gordo much better for that. However, I can offer good luck, inspiration, and a little mental technique. If you are nervous about finishing or pushing yourself too far too soon, practice breathing techniques and yoga to control mental anxiety. Something that helps me at the end of a tough workout is asking myself "What do I need to relax to continue this for another hour?"(I ask this even if I only have 5-10 minutes to go.) I got this technique from yoga and almost always my face relaxes, and my breathing becomes more regulated. I also focus on whatever is tightening up. For example, last night my rt. neck/shoulder started to cramp up. I kept saying "rt. neck relax - only 10 more minutes, rt. neck relax - chest up shoulders back/down., rt. neck relax - etc." Practice this over the next week so that you can use it should you get in trouble during the race.

Hope this helps - at the very least good luck.  


Edited by laurabuchholz 2009-04-29 2:16 PM
2009-04-29 2:11 PM
in reply to: #2118437

Member
19

Subject: Weights when sore?

I have two questions.

1) Should I do a weight workout when my muscles are still sore from a previous workout? Specifically, my upper back is sore from last night's swim workout (in a good way - I really worked on my technique and pulling with my lats/traps and not my arms). Should I do the back exercises scheduled for today or should I skip and make up another day? Also, what about yoga? Sometimes I do it for flexibility but some of my routines really hit muscles in my core that I don't hit with the core and weight workouts. How often can I swap the weight training for yoga strength training?

2a) Currently I have my racing bike on a trainer and do my drill work there. I've left it there until the roads improve (e.g. potholes, salt residue, general winter grim, etc). For road work I've been using my hybrid/commuter bike. A friend scolded me when I said I was doing my outside hill WO on my hybrid (which will go through anything with ease). She said I was hurting myself and that I need to do these WOs on my race bike. I would if I didn't think the roads would bend it all to hell. Am I really hurting myself waiting until I have better pavement to ride on?

2b) Does 8X2' on a bike WO mean 8 hills times 2 minutes or 2 miles? When doing this outside, what do you do if the hills are closer together? 



Edited by laurabuchholz 2009-04-29 2:42 PM


2009-04-29 5:48 PM
in reply to: #2118437

User image

Extreme Veteran
566
5002525
Southern California
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
BabsVa - 2009-04-29 9:54 AM

My race is coming up May 10th.



Good luck!  The start time is 9:00 am?  That is awesome.  I have to wake the kids up at 4:00 am on the 9th for mine.  They don't like when I do that.

2009-04-29 11:04 PM
in reply to: #2117879

User image

Extreme Veteran
680
500100252525
Boulder, CO
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
cjhild - 2009-04-29 7:58 AM

 

G- is there anything I can do on the bike when going up a hill to keep the HR down?  on the steeper hills I drop into my lowest gear (I only have a double) and still see my HR climbing.  Do I just not worry about it and let it come down after cresting the hill?

On a run when considering HR should I be most concerned with my average HR when looking at the session afterwards, or should I be more concerned about the HR at specific times during the run?  I try to keep a close eye on the HR during the run so that I am not getting too high.

Thanks.

 



Yes - you can change your gearing and choose routes that don't have steep sections.  Very effective to moderate HR when climbing.  Also, make sure that you are now "powering up" the early part of the climb and spiking effort.

With the HR caps -- easiest thing is to set an alarm to beep at the level you want to cap and learn to exercise in a relaxed manner under the alarm.  A lot easier than dealing with the stress of checking all the time.

Overall, you will have to moderate your approach and your routes while you gain fitness -- this is the fastest way to improve and will generate the greatest benefits from your training.

2009-04-29 11:07 PM
in reply to: #2118187

User image

Extreme Veteran
680
500100252525
Boulder, CO
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
cjhild - 2009-04-29 9:23 AM
GordoByrn - 2009-04-27

Fun to look back and our predictions over time.


So G, are you fast enough?


Far faster than I need to be.  But it's easy for me, because I am faster than most.  The folks that are slow but fast enough -- those are the jedi-masters of our sport.

2009-04-29 11:10 PM
in reply to: #2118437

User image

Extreme Veteran
680
500100252525
Boulder, CO
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
BabsVa - 2009-04-29 10:54 AM

My race is coming up May 10th. I am thinking about getting in a long ride w/some tough intervals tomorrow or Friday - about 10 days out - and that would be my last long workout before the race. Anticipating for the race about :20 swim/1:10 bike/:30 run, T = 2 hours. Therefore this last long bike ride would be about 2 hours. Does that make sense to do that long ride at this point? I haven't had a continuous 2 hr workout yet this season. Definitely need to avoid trying to make up for lost time but want to have a solid workout that lasts the anticipated duration of the race.

That being said, I am definitely going in to this race a little under prepared, especially in the run. Well, prepared to have fun, yes, that I'm ready for.



If in doubt then leave it out -- Joe Friel.

If you want to train endurance then ride the distance -- no need to include hard training with your longest endurance workout of the year (that could be over doing it).

A long session two weeks out would be fine.

2009-04-29 11:14 PM
in reply to: #2118856

User image

Extreme Veteran
680
500100252525
Boulder, CO
Subject: RE: Weights when sore?
laurabuchholz - 2009-04-29 1:11 PM

I have two questions.

1) Should I do a weight workout when my muscles are still sore from a previous workout? Specifically, my upper back is sore from last night's swim workout (in a good way - I really worked on my technique and pulling with my lats/traps and not my arms). Should I do the back exercises scheduled for today or should I skip and make up another day? Also, what about yoga? Sometimes I do it for flexibility but some of my routines really hit muscles in my core that I don't hit with the core and weight workouts. How often can I swap the weight training for yoga strength training?

2a) Currently I have my racing bike on a trainer and do my drill work there. I've left it there until the roads improve (e.g. potholes, salt residue, general winter grim, etc). For road work I've been using my hybrid/commuter bike. A friend scolded me when I said I was doing my outside hill WO on my hybrid (which will go through anything with ease). She said I was hurting myself and that I need to do these WOs on my race bike. I would if I didn't think the roads would bend it all to hell. Am I really hurting myself waiting until I have better pavement to ride on?

2b) Does 8X2' on a bike WO mean 8 hills times 2 minutes or 2 miles? When doing this outside, what do you do if the hills are closer together? 



Hi Laura,

OK to train through a little soreness -- no risk there.  However, you don't want to be chronically sore (every day) -- that means that you have a little too much load.

Alternating yoga with strength -- say one of each per week -- that would make sense for an athlete in your position.

All riding is good riding -- I wouldn't worry about which bike you are using.  Key thing is to be able to train and have fun.  Being outside on the commuter is more fun that indoors.  Enjoy it when you can get outside.

2' = two minutes
2" = two seconds

2M => I'd ask for clarification if it was in that format as I know coaches that could mean miles or minutes



2009-04-30 11:59 AM
in reply to: #2072085

User image

Champion
7163
500020001002525
Verona WI--Ironman Bike Country!
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

Hey G

Two questions for you:

I was talking to a local coach who knows my background and his comment was I needed to build endurance on the bike this season.  Is the definition of endurance just longer amount of time in the saddle? 

I am still on my CT and did Zofingen which has this long 3.5m, 5.9-9.9% grade hill.  All I could do is stick it into the SCR/27 and grind it out.  Is their some form or technique I should think about with the upper or lower body as I am doing this? Quads weren't burning and HR was in Z3, but it was SLOW, (cadence in the 60s, 5-6mph).  It took me 30' to go 3.5m. Or is the answer just do more of them?

Thanks
Suzy

2009-04-30 10:50 PM
in reply to: #2121045

User image

Extreme Veteran
680
500100252525
Boulder, CO
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
SSMinnow - 2009-04-30 10:59 AM

Hey G

Two questions for you:

I was talking to a local coach who knows my background and his comment was I needed to build endurance on the bike this season.  Is the definition of endurance just longer amount of time in the saddle? 

I am still on my CT and did Zofingen which has this long 3.5m, 5.9-9.9% grade hill.  All I could do is stick it into the SCR/27 and grind it out.  Is their some form or technique I should think about with the upper or lower body as I am doing this? Quads weren't burning and HR was in Z3, but it was SLOW, (cadence in the 60s, 5-6mph).  It took me 30' to go 3.5m. Or is the answer just do more of them?

Thanks
Suzy



Is that you in the new photo?  Nice shot.

Endurance has a few different components - this article came from the achieves so the format isn't perfect but... http://www.endurancecorner.com/old_school_endurance

For your cycling there are a few things to consider...
1 - the ability to exercise for your total race duration (think time)
2 - the ability to perform the total amount of work required for your race (think output)
3 - the ability to increase your work rate (think power/pace/speed)

Most athletes focus on #3 almost exclusively in their training and testing -- however, race performance is dominated by #1 and #2.  So when your coach talks "endurance" she/he is probably talking about #1 and #2.

You can also see if these are limiting by athletes that see big fade in power/pace and the race duration extends.

You shouldn't be doing challenging CT workouts in the 14 days after Boston -- right now you should be focusing on swim frequency -- that the best goal for the three weeks after a marathon -- swim often, stay balanced, recover from the marathon effort.

With the hills, once you are recovered from the marathon, the best way is have enough gears and gradually increase the severity of the terrain that you are climbing.  Gradual adaptation.  Also, watch the tendency to spike power/effort at the base -- loading the legs early leads to underperformance.

The low HR relative to effort can be a leading indicator of fatigue -- totally normal after a marathon event.

In the 14-17 day window post marathon (or any key race) you are likely to feel very good -- resist the urge to hammer yourself (or your training pals!) in this window.  It's a mistake that I've made a few times.

Hope this helps,
2009-05-01 8:56 AM
in reply to: #2072085

Expert
626
50010025
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

Hey all I noticed in our little mentor group here there are a few of us in our forties and beyond (and the rest of you, well, you just wait, you'll get there soon enough) In fact I wonder about the demographics of triathlon, it seems a sport most people discover as adults and not necessarily as young adults, either.


I am interested in the issues facing older triathletes. Competing is fun, and it's great to have goals, but consistent training and longevity is really what I am after. A multi-sport obsession seems a great thing to have as one enters their fifties,. The varying of the sports loads and scalability of triathlon makes it adaptable to aging joints, changing cardio-vascular capacity, etc. In other words I see no reason to stop. Maybe even to get a little faster? Is that reasonable for someone who never was particularly fast to begin with? :-

I aim to maintain fitness with sbr and keep realistic goals. How exactly to determine what goals are realistic of course remains tricky. What is the aging factor to be calculated? How do I know what pace, volume, etc to shoot for, for example, and what is likely to injure me? When I ride with the triclub here I often find myself riding with people a decade or so younger than I am. I enjoy their company but they make me feel ... well, feel old. My guess is Coach G would say if you want to feel young then find older people to ride with. Older dudes, sure they are out there, but no so many 40++ gals. Wonder why.

My older toughgirl riding buddies and I often speculate about this. Are there physical reasons, ie menopause, injuries, etc  or cultural, ie women of my age are pre-Title Nine and not of a habit to participate in sports? Family and job commitments? And if these are some of the reasons what can be done to deal with injury avoidance, training through menopause, encouraging triathlon participation with tri-it type races, appropriate training programs, etc.

I was excited to see the over-50 training camp referenced in Coach G's blog. So we are not totally ignored, then ;-) There is not a whole lot of information out there on this subject, particularly for aging female athletes.  It's fun having a little community of 40++ trigirls here on BT to help keep each other going.

2009-05-01 9:11 AM
in reply to: #2122757

User image

Champion
7163
500020001002525
Verona WI--Ironman Bike Country!
Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring
GordoByrn - 2009-04-30 10:50 PM
SSMinnow - 2009-04-30 10:59 AM

Hey G

Two questions for you:

I was talking to a local coach who knows my background and his comment was I needed to build endurance on the bike this season.  Is the definition of endurance just longer amount of time in the saddle? 

I am still on my CT and did Zofingen which has this long 3.5m, 5.9-9.9% grade hill.  All I could do is stick it into the SCR/27 and grind it out.  Is their some form or technique I should think about with the upper or lower body as I am doing this? Quads weren't burning and HR was in Z3, but it was SLOW, (cadence in the 60s, 5-6mph).  It took me 30' to go 3.5m. Or is the answer just do more of them?

Thanks
Suzy



Is that you in the new photo?  Nice shot.

Endurance has a few different components - this article came from the achieves so the format isn't perfect but... http://www.endurancecorner.com/old_school_endurance

For your cycling there are a few things to consider...
1 - the ability to exercise for your total race duration (think time)
2 - the ability to perform the total amount of work required for your race (think output)
3 - the ability to increase your work rate (think power/pace/speed)

Most athletes focus on #3 almost exclusively in their training and testing -- however, race performance is dominated by #1 and #2.  So when your coach talks "endurance" she/he is probably talking about #1 and #2.

You can also see if these are limiting by athletes that see big fade in power/pace and the race duration extends.

You shouldn't be doing challenging CT workouts in the 14 days after Boston -- right now you should be focusing on swim frequency -- that the best goal for the three weeks after a marathon -- swim often, stay balanced, recover from the marathon effort.

With the hills, once you are recovered from the marathon, the best way is have enough gears and gradually increase the severity of the terrain that you are climbing.  Gradual adaptation.  Also, watch the tendency to spike power/effort at the base -- loading the legs early leads to underperformance.

The low HR relative to effort can be a leading indicator of fatigue -- totally normal after a marathon event.

In the 14-17 day window post marathon (or any key race) you are likely to feel very good -- resist the urge to hammer yourself (or your training pals!) in this window.  It's a mistake that I've made a few times.

Hope this helps,


Yep, that is me in the avatar in the final stretch of Boston.  It is one of the few photos where even though I feel like crap, it is well hidden

I have taken your advice on the swimming post marathon and have been in the pool a lot. I've stepped back to nearly all drills based on an underwater video tape I had done a couple of weeks ago. Sort of humbling and frustrating, but necessary. I don't think I have followed your advice on the bike.  I figured it was the discipline I have ignored the most over the winter, was not that hard on the body post marathon and I would play catch up.  Based on my low HR on the bike and very high HR on my runs, maybe backing off for a few more days is warranted. Thanks for the reminder.

Suzy
New Thread
BT Development Mentor Program Archives » GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring Rss Feed  
 
 
of 27