BT Development Mentor Program Archives » Aaron Davidson's Group -- Closed. Rss Feed  
Moderators: alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 76
 
 
2010-01-08 4:01 PM
in reply to: #2555906

User image

Veteran
286
100100252525
Orange, CA
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...
velo-noob question time. What's the deal with cadence?

Installed budget cyclometer thingy from christmas and I think I have everything set up correctly. Reading Mike's LT stuff for bike he says to keep in a gear where you can maintain at least 90 rpm for the whole 20 minutes. I've only ridden with this thing on twice but it kills me to keep a 90+ rpm...even in a low low gear where I end up slowing way down on the mph scale. It feels like I'm spending all my energy just lifting my legs. I can do it for maybe 5 minutes at a time.

On the machines at the gym (I know, not the same, yeah) it says I'm turning like 110 / 120 and I can keep that up for much longer.

Do I just slow way down mph-wise and focus on cadence for awhile? or ... Is this fast leg turnover just something that comes with time? I have pretty strong legs, I believe, and can turn out a pretty good clip in a higher gear but this high turnover thing seems counter intuitive to me (sort of opposite of lowering stroke count in the pool).

Anyone care to explain?


2010-01-08 4:18 PM
in reply to: #2603256

User image

Veteran
286
100100252525
Orange, CA
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...
wbayek - 2010-01-08 10:29 AM
bfoyle - 2010-01-08 11:31 AM hehe, if it's a club, we should make shirts ;-)




Here's one I did for myself.  I can't figure out to put in an image so hopefully this link works:

http://www.designashirt.com/design.asp?design=437848


nice shirt!
2010-01-08 6:12 PM
in reply to: #2603858

User image

Extreme Veteran
542
50025
Pauls Valley, OK
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...
bfoyle - 2010-01-08 4:01 PM velo-noob question time. What's the deal with cadence?

Installed budget cyclometer thingy from christmas and I think I have everything set up correctly. Reading Mike's LT stuff for bike he says to keep in a gear where you can maintain at least 90 rpm for the whole 20 minutes. I've only ridden with this thing on twice but it kills me to keep a 90+ rpm...even in a low low gear where I end up slowing way down on the mph scale. It feels like I'm spending all my energy just lifting my legs. I can do it for maybe 5 minutes at a time.

On the machines at the gym (I know, not the same, yeah) it says I'm turning like 110 / 120 and I can keep that up for much longer.

Do I just slow way down mph-wise and focus on cadence for awhile? or ... Is this fast leg turnover just something that comes with time? I have pretty strong legs, I believe, and can turn out a pretty good clip in a higher gear but this high turnover thing seems counter intuitive to me (sort of opposite of lowering stroke count in the pool).

Anyone care to explain?


When I first started riding I was comfortable with a cadence around 80, it could have been lower (it's been 25 years).  I had a member of the local club teach me to ride in the mid 90's.  I bought a computer with cadence and begin working on 'spinning'.  I hated it.  One thing I did that I think helped was cadence intervals on the trainer.  I would ramp my cadence up to 110+.  Then when I got outside 95 didn't seem so bad.  My opinion is that it is different kind of conditioning for mashing vs. spinning, and your body will adjust.  Oh, and from personal experience spinning is faster than mashing, but everyone is different.
2010-01-08 8:22 PM
in reply to: #2602887

User image

Elite
2423
2000100100100100
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...

bfoyle - 2010-01-08 11:31 AM hehe, if it's a club, we should make shirts ;-)

Speaking of LTHR testing, I did my first one on my run yesterday and I'm still trying to figure it out. Of course, I didn't get it quite right having to stop after 19 minutes (there was a hill coming up and it was supposed to be on a flat course [cough]rationalization[/cough] ...that and, um someone took all the oxygen out of the air for a brief time here in SoCal).

Anyway, I came up with an LT of 160 but then I made the discovery that my budget HRM (polar F4) only has one target zone. Would it be best to just set it for z2 since that's where I should be doing the majority of my work, or should I adjust it for every run?

Adjust based on your run.

2010-01-08 8:25 PM
in reply to: #2602904

User image

Elite
2423
2000100100100100
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...

bfoyle - 2010-01-08 11:35 AM

No one answered the question about the half marathon and adjusting it to 10x400's, or would it be 5x800's, or should I just stick to a goal of 10x800's?  That amount seems like a lot to me right now.


when I do speed work (which is rare) I am shooting for 10x400. The closest I've gotten is 8. I have no rationale, however, that's just what I did for speed work back in my youth based on the coaches instructions in cave paintings.

Honestly I do not have an answer, I would shoot for what the plans says.

2010-01-08 8:26 PM
in reply to: #2555906

User image

Extreme Veteran
386
100100100252525
Rio Rancho - where you can ride year round!
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...

Jennifer,

Congrats on your pace! that's great!!  Also, That LTHR link would be great. If you can post it, would be cool to see. 

Bob - I know what you mean when you say the O2 was taken away! it happened here in ABQ as well yesterday, right around the hill....

As for cadence, I ordered the cadence accessory for my 305, but it hasn't arrived yet. it will be interesting to see if my easy calculation of how many spins in 6 seconds turns out to be what the cadence sensor shows. I'm usually at 90 and try to stay at this level based on feel. I know if I spin to fast, I'll lose a little speed, but I don't think you should feel worked to spin 90...it could be just training your legs to spin in smooth circles, which can be done by single leg spinning.

just a thought...you may already know all of this!



Edited by barelfly 2010-01-08 8:29 PM


2010-01-08 8:26 PM
in reply to: #2603005

User image

Elite
2423
2000100100100100
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...

itsallrelative_Maine - 2010-01-08 12:05 PM
bfoyle - 2010-01-07 11:31 PM

Anyway, I came up with an LT of 160 but then I made the discovery that my budget HRM (polar F4) only has one target zone. Would it be best to just set it for z2 since that's where I should be doing the majority of my work, or should I adjust it for every run?


Sounds like a good idea to me...I have a spreadsheet taped to the wall next to the trainer with my zones and their associated heart rates so I can glance over just in case i can't remember...there is a great spreadsheet that auto-calculates the zones based on LTHR that I can PM to you if you are interested (I can't find the link right now, and also can't figure how to attach stuff to a thread...)

I am much slower than the rest of you folks...but today, I made myself run 3 miles at a 9:15 rate - which is the fastest I have run for that distance...It gives me hope that I can keep getting faster. (My usual pace is between 11 and 12).

Ciao!

Nice job. Its nice to get those faster runs in. The more you run the easier running is, the more you run faster the easier 'fast' becomes.

2010-01-08 8:27 PM
in reply to: #2603276

User image

Elite
2423
2000100100100100
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...

wbayek - 2010-01-08 1:37 PM
itsallrelative_Maine - 2010-01-08 12:05 PM
bfoyle - 2010-01-07 11:31 PM

Anyway, I came up with an LT of 160 but then I made the discovery that my budget HRM (polar F4) only has one target zone. Would it be best to just set it for z2 since that's where I should be doing the majority of my work, or should I adjust it for every run?


Sounds like a good idea to me...I have a spreadsheet taped to the wall next to the trainer with my zones and their associated heart rates so I can glance over just in case i can't remember...there is a great spreadsheet that auto-calculates the zones based on LTHR that I can PM to you if you are interested (I can't find the link right now, and also can't figure how to attach stuff to a thread...)

I am much slower than the rest of you folks...but today, I made myself run 3 miles at a 9:15 rate - which is the fastest I have run for that distance...It gives me hope that I can keep getting faster. (My usual pace is between 11 and 12).

Ciao!



That's a quick pace.  Nice job.  Don't worry about anyone else or their times, it's you against you so train optimally for your fitness level.  And if you keep training like you have been, I guarantee you will keep getting faster.

I plan a pretty strict game plan for my heart rates going into cycling and most running workouts, with the numbers plugged in.  For instance, for the Jorge plan, I make a little sheet with duration, Jorge's notation (z level), and then my target heart rates on a line for each interval.  It's a little tough for some because the interval is too short to actually register (like the 15 or 30 second ones), but I know the target heart rate and I'm getting better at "feeling" what a heart rate feels like. 

Running is a little harder because I don't carry the sheet, but I have in my head the paces I want to run for various parts of the run if I'm changing speeds.   Are we all insane in here?

 

HR tends to lag up to 90seconds.  I think triathlon either encourages nerds or draws them to it.

2010-01-08 8:39 PM
in reply to: #2603858

User image

Elite
2423
2000100100100100
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...

bfoyle - 2010-01-08 5:01 PM velo-noob question time. What's the deal with cadence?

Installed budget cyclometer thingy from christmas and I think I have everything set up correctly. Reading Mike's LT stuff for bike he says to keep in a gear where you can maintain at least 90 rpm for the whole 20 minutes. I've only ridden with this thing on twice but it kills me to keep a 90+ rpm...even in a low low gear where I end up slowing way down on the mph scale. It feels like I'm spending all my energy just lifting my legs. I can do it for maybe 5 minutes at a time.

On the machines at the gym (I know, not the same, yeah) it says I'm turning like 110 / 120 and I can keep that up for much longer.

Do I just slow way down mph-wise and focus on cadence for awhile? or ... Is this fast leg turnover just something that comes with time? I have pretty strong legs, I believe, and can turn out a pretty good clip in a higher gear but this high turnover thing seems counter intuitive to me (sort of opposite of lowering stroke count in the pool).

Anyone care to explain?

Its a personal thing. I find that I can hold a higher level of power longer at a higher cadence. There is no right cadence. Part of a recent workout:

Duration      AVG Power     AVG HR     AVG Cadence

10:50          126               140           93
20:46          214               162           85
29:34          170               148           85

By this point in the workout, I had done a workout, some intervals. The 10min was recovery, the 20min was to gauge against pre kona fitness, the 30min was a moderate tempo ride.

However I also spend time in a small gear, one some workouts for 30min 'spinning' at around 100rpm.

2010-01-10 10:25 AM
in reply to: #2604253

User image

Elite
2423
2000100100100100
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...

One last thing on cadence, smooth higher cadence riding (not bouncing around) shows efficiency.

 

People talk about carbs and protein after workouts. The reason for protein is because post workout your body will synthesis more protein than any other time. Carbs help because they allow your body to synthesize more protein because the carbs help to stimulate the release of more insulin which then transports more of the amino acids from the protein to your muscle cells.

2010-01-10 10:32 AM
in reply to: #2605860

User image

NH
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...
aarondavidson - 2010-01-10 11:25 AM

One last thing on cadence, smooth higher cadence riding (not bouncing around) shows efficiency.

 

People talk about carbs and protein after workouts. The reason for protein is because post workout your body will synthesis more protein than any other time. Carbs help because they allow your body to synthesize more protein because the carbs help to stimulate the release of more insulin which then transports more of the amino acids from the protein to your muscle cells.



As a past hockey player/squatter with fairly strong legs, I've always been a masher on the bike and I've had trouble with higher cadence as well.  I've tried incorporating some really high cadence work to get efficient.  It took a while to not bounce, and I'm still not there, but it really does help with having a smooth stroke all the way around the circle.  I do some one legged pedaling too, which seems to teach me to pull as well as push.

Once you get to the point of being able to pedal at those higher rates, I totally agree that it takes less energy to maintain the same speed.  I don't have a power meter so I can't verify with power numbers, but I have lower HR and feel more refreshed at the end given same MPH.


2010-01-10 1:16 PM
in reply to: #2604253

User image

Master
1736
100050010010025
Midcoast Maine
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...
barelfly - 2010-01-08 9:26 AM

Also, That LTHR link would be great. If you can post it, would be cool to see. 



Here is a link to the thread where I got the calculator. If you have some time - it is a pretty informative thread about HR...if you don't - the specific message that has the calculator in it is what is linked. Enjoy!
2010-01-10 1:22 PM
in reply to: #2555906

User image

Master
1736
100050010010025
Midcoast Maine
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...
X3 on smooth cadence...I try every ride to keep the bouncing around to a minimum...smooth, even strokes. A friend of mine (who is a phenomenal cyclist) told me to think about peanut butter being on the bottom of my foot and every time I take a stroke, try to wipe the peanut butter off my foot at the bottom of the stroke, instead of trying to mash the pedal down for each stroke.

Just finished week 10 of Jorge's cycling plan...with a 3 hour trainer ride (it's 6 degrees with a windchill of -8 outside right now)...now that' I've figured out how to program the Garmin to beep at me for each lap on the program, I'm looking forward to week 11 (except for the fact it is a LTHR test-week).

Thinking about adding a sprint or two at the beginning of summer just to keep me motivated...but haven't committed. I did register for the Lobsterman (Oly) last week and got my USAT membership stuff in the mail, so I've made some promises I've got to keep.

How's your training going?
2010-01-11 8:33 AM
in reply to: #2555906

User image

NH
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...
I have to post something about ART (active release techniques).  I've been seeing this guy, Dr. Steve Baroody in Manchester,  for a few issues - primarily ankle stiffness/pain - which have bugged me for many years.  He had pretty much fixed those and I'd been pain free in my ankle and calf for the first time since high school (can it really be 30 years?).

A week ago I went for what was to be my last visit, and since my knees were really bugging me after runs I asked him about it.  He poked around and determined it was nothing more than IT band issues, and did some work on it and showed me how to keep it loose using the foam roller.  I can't believe how much better my knees feel already.

Even after my long run this weekend, which was a new longest run of 11.5 since I felt so good during the run, there was only mild soreness in my knees and they felt fine the next day.  I'm a believer.

Has any else ever used ART?  And the foam roller is also amazing.  I started using it about a month ago and I can't imagine not having it.
2010-01-11 9:51 AM
in reply to: #2555906

User image

Master
1736
100050010010025
Midcoast Maine
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...
I have a foam roller and have been using it (not religiously) for the last couple of months. I started to get pain in my left knee a couple of months ago during my runs and someone (on BT) suggested the foam roller. Combined with a great massage, running a lot on the treadmill vs. on the crowned roads outside - it has completely resolved my knee pain. I am very satisfied with the results.

Is the trigger therapy on-going (like a chiropractor)? I'd be very interested in hearing more.
2010-01-11 10:35 AM
in reply to: #2606051

User image

NH
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...
itsallrelative_Maine - 2010-01-10 2:22 PM

Thinking about adding a sprint or two at the beginning of summer just to keep me motivated...but haven't committed. I did register for the Lobsterman (Oly) last week and got my USAT membership stuff in the mail, so I've made some promises I've got to keep.

How's your training going?


Great job getting one in the books.  I know it's silly, but it's kind of fun to get the USAT card and sticker, or am I just still too much of a little kid?

My son and I are doing the Eastman Splash, Mash and Dash on June 19.  It's a small field (200) and is supposed to be a good beginner sprint.


2010-01-11 10:40 AM
in reply to: #2607323

User image

NH
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...
itsallrelative_Maine - 2010-01-11 10:51 AM I have a foam roller and have been using it (not religiously) for the last couple of months. I started to get pain in my left knee a couple of months ago during my runs and someone (on BT) suggested the foam roller. Combined with a great massage, running a lot on the treadmill vs. on the crowned roads outside - it has completely resolved my knee pain. I am very satisfied with the results.

Is the trigger therapy on-going (like a chiropractor)? I'd be very interested in hearing more.


The trigger therapy does have a end, though the people who do it are often chiropractor types.  The guy I go to is a chiropractor, though he seems to be doing more ART and athletic rehab type work.  He actually wanted me to stop going sooner, but I insisted on a few more visits because it was so effective for me.

My wife had been not able to run due to severe groin problems for a few years, even after orthopedic specialist visits, months of PT work and massage to beat the band.  If she tried to run her groin would get extremely tight and painful, and nothing seemed to help.  She's been going for a few weeks and is now running 30 minutes with very little discomfort at all.
2010-01-11 10:52 AM
in reply to: #2607070

User image

Expert
694
500100252525
WA
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...
wbayek - 2010-01-10 6:33 PM

Has any else ever used ART?  And the foam roller is also amazing.  I started using it about a month ago and I can't imagine not having it.


Yes I used a foam roller when I was having issues with my calf and my wife used it when she has IT band issues.  A PT recommended it to us.

My brother-in-law swears by the ART.  He said it healed his back which he was having problems with for years also.  His daughter-in-law is trained in it.

Great to hear your ankle is doing well!
2010-01-11 11:35 AM
in reply to: #2604278

User image

Elite
2423
2000100100100100
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...

aarondavidson - 2010-01-08 9:39 PM

bfoyle - 2010-01-08 5:01 PM velo-noob question time. What's the deal with cadence?

Installed budget cyclometer thingy from christmas and I think I have everything set up correctly. Reading Mike's LT stuff for bike he says to keep in a gear where you can maintain at least 90 rpm for the whole 20 minutes. I've only ridden with this thing on twice but it kills me to keep a 90+ rpm...even in a low low gear where I end up slowing way down on the mph scale. It feels like I'm spending all my energy just lifting my legs. I can do it for maybe 5 minutes at a time.

On the machines at the gym (I know, not the same, yeah) it says I'm turning like 110 / 120 and I can keep that up for much longer.

Do I just slow way down mph-wise and focus on cadence for awhile? or ... Is this fast leg turnover just something that comes with time? I have pretty strong legs, I believe, and can turn out a pretty good clip in a higher gear but this high turnover thing seems counter intuitive to me (sort of opposite of lowering stroke count in the pool).

Anyone care to explain?

Its a personal thing. I find that I can hold a higher level of power longer at a higher cadence. There is no right cadence. Part of a recent workout:

Duration      AVG Power     AVG HR     AVG Cadence

10:50          126               140           93
20:46          214               162           85
29:34          170               148           85

By this point in the workout, I had done a workout, some intervals. The 10min was recovery, the 20min was to gauge against pre kona fitness, the 30min was a moderate tempo ride.

However I also spend time in a small gear, one some workouts for 30min 'spinning' at around 100rpm.

More on cadence:

http://www.physfarm.com/inside/articles_cycling_cadence.html

"et's imagine you and I are identical twins, and we are cruising on our bikes, and our power meters both read 200 watts. Fortunately, we are both incredibly rich, so we both happen to have portable oxygen meters and we know we are using the same amount of oxygen. You are spinning your pedals at about 80 rpm, in a reasonable gear. I am using a huge gear, and end up grinding along at say 40 rpm. What happens? Well, we are doing the same amount of work, and using the same amount of oxygen. However, per turn of the pedals, I am using twice as much force. I need to maintain my speed with only 40 pedal turns each minute. So, my muscles have to exert more force per turn than yours. You are doing twice as much pedaling, but each turn only takes half the force that mine does."



Edited by aarondavidson 2010-01-11 12:08 PM
2010-01-11 12:06 PM
in reply to: #2607070

User image

Elite
2423
2000100100100100
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...

wbayek - 2010-01-11 9:33 AM I have to post something about ART (active release techniques).  I've been seeing this guy, Dr. Steve Baroody in Manchester,  for a few issues - primarily ankle stiffness/pain - which have bugged me for many years.  He had pretty much fixed those and I'd been pain free in my ankle and calf for the first time since high school (can it really be 30 years?).

A week ago I went for what was to be my last visit, and since my knees were really bugging me after runs I asked him about it.  He poked around and determined it was nothing more than IT band issues, and did some work on it and showed me how to keep it loose using the foam roller.  I can't believe how much better my knees feel already.

Even after my long run this weekend, which was a new longest run of 11.5 since I felt so good during the run, there was only mild soreness in my knees and they felt fine the next day.  I'm a believer.

Has any else ever used ART?  And the foam roller is also amazing.  I started using it about a month ago and I can't imagine not having it.

I was never able to feel anything from foam rolling, but I have had a few ART sessions. They are painful but I always felt better after.

2010-01-11 1:21 PM
in reply to: #2607664

User image

Veteran
286
100100252525
Orange, CA
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...
good link, Aaron, thanks.


2010-01-11 3:22 PM
in reply to: #2607920

User image

NH
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...
bfoyle - 2010-01-11 2:21 PM good link, Aaron, thanks.


Yeah, thanks Aaron.  The other factor for us is run performance after biking.  I've seen studies that show conflicting run results with higher and lower cadence on the bike, so just like the link here suggests a lot of this stuff must be personal so I guess we all have to try different things and see what works best for us.

I have definitely found that for biking only, a higher cadence than my "natural" cadence lets me maintain a higher speed for a longer time.  I think I still currently settle in at less than 90, but I'm trying to train to become more natural at higher cadences to see if it works better for me.
2010-01-11 5:45 PM
in reply to: #2555906

User image

Elite
2423
2000100100100100
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...

I tried to write something about about using HR for training and looked at a ton of articles. I do not think I could compete with this:

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=54

Really the basis of monitoring and using your HR is to gauge fitness, pace, and hold yourself back when you should (during some training, not racing).

Unfortunately it is often a crutch as well, but helps get a lot more running miles in keeping you back instead of blowing up so you can go a lot further.

 

More info:

http://www.trainingpeaks.com/trainingplans/ericschwartz/trainingintensity.asp

http://www.trifuel.com/training/beginner/how-to-set-accurate-training-zones

This helps break down training cycles:

http://www.coachr.org/heart_rate_training_for_improved.htm



Edited by aarondavidson 2010-01-11 5:46 PM
2010-01-11 6:22 PM
in reply to: #2608538

User image

NH
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...
Thanks Aaron, awesome info.

I have some questions for my training:

As I prepare for my half marathon in 12 weeks, should I just keep running the miles or should I go ahead and do the speed work?  I have zero running background until about 3 months ago.

If you think speed work is in order, what type of speed work would you suggest?

I was planning to limit my intense cycling (other than recovery spins) to twice a week until after the half marathon because I really want my legs fresh to run more, does that make sense?

As far as swimming, until late April my work and family schedule and available pool times really only allow once per week as a possibility.  Is it worth it to swim just once a week, or should I completely wait until April to start?

2010-01-11 7:15 PM
in reply to: #2608587

User image

Elite
2423
2000100100100100
Subject: RE: Aaron Davidson's Group -- Full...

wbayek - 2010-01-11 7:22 PM Thanks Aaron, awesome info.

I have some questions for my training:

As I prepare for my half marathon in 12 weeks, should I just keep running the miles or should I go ahead and do the speed work?  I have zero running background until about 3 months ago.

If you think speed work is in order, what type of speed work would you suggest?

I was planning to limit my intense cycling (other than recovery spins) to twice a week until after the half marathon because I really want my legs fresh to run more, does that make sense?

As far as swimming, until late April my work and family schedule and available pool times really only allow once per week as a possibility.  Is it worth it to swim just once a week, or should I completely wait until April to start?

Keep it all relatively easy. Nothing to hard until week 8-10. As you ramp up your long runs, do part below your ideal race pace. So like 8miles at your normal easy pace, then 5 below race, then 2 more easy. Should help keep you injury free.

New Thread
BT Development Mentor Program Archives » Aaron Davidson's Group -- Closed. Rss Feed  
 
 
of 76