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jszat's group- closed (Page 8)
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 2007-07-19 7:30 AM in reply to: #803897 |
Pro  4827     McKinney, TX |  Subject: RE: jszat's group- closedI'm still eye-balling a sprint in September with an open water swim. I've got a list of things I "need" to buy before October and still stay within my budget. That's my limiting factor now. If I don't do the sprint, I'll be heading out to the lake to practice. I probably need to do that anyway. I bought my CO2 cartridges and nozzle so I can now change a flat out on the road. Also a new rear flasher for morning rides. Both were on sale.  I won a Giro Advantage 2 aero helmet in the Competitor magazine Ultimate Tri giveaway. I haven't actually received it yet, but I won it. I still haven't decided whether I'll keep it and use it or sell it. |
| 2007-07-19 10:15 AM in reply to: #891637 |
Pro 3906 Libertyville, IL | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed kanders - 2007-07-18 2:56 PM Ok, I know that everyone says not to OWS alone. I know it, I know why... But I did today, and I'm really glad. We live on a lake and I've been kicking myself for how little OWS practice I've gotten in this year. So today I swam across the lake and back on my lunch hour, twice. You can all berate me now. Joe, I know you do a lot of OWS in the early a.m. - do you always have a buddy? Yep, I am one of the bad kids that does it too, but always with the wetsuit on cuz I know if something goes wrong I can float on my back and I swim (most of the time) close enough to the shore in case there is an issue. So I wont berate ya, just say be careful. |
| 2007-07-19 11:32 AM in reply to: #803897 |
Elite 4504 Columbus, Ohio | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed By the way Joe... Has anyone told you lately that your a freakin machine? 21 mph average on a 41 mile ride and the run 7:30 average miles. I wanna be like you someday. Holy smokes |
| 2007-07-19 11:35 AM in reply to: #803897 |
Pro 4827 McKinney, TX | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed Justin - you getting psyched for this weekend's race? Do you have any goal/prediction times? |
| 2007-07-19 11:50 AM in reply to: #892779 |
Elite 4504 Columbus, Ohio | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed I am getting psyched. A little nervous due to the little back-sliding incident but I know I will be fine. I really wanted to get a ride in today before resting Friday and Saturday but I don't think it is going to happen. Too much life-stuff getting in the way. Race: 750m, 15.3 mi, 3.1 mi Swim: 13:00 (triangle course so it is going to require some navigation skill) T1: 1:30 (last time was a horrible 3 min. Hoping the little practice I've done will help) Bike: 40:00 (15mi on a very flat course: a partially closed highway) T2: 1:10 (no frills on this one... last time about the same) Run: 25:00 (I am hoping for faster but we will see. Last race was a PR 24:30, hoping to beat it) TOTAL: 1:20:00 Conservative... but last time I was too aggressive Edited by JChristoff 2007-07-19 1:31 PM |
| 2007-07-20 8:23 AM in reply to: #892773 |
Pro 3906 Libertyville, IL | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed JChristoff - 2007-07-19 11:32 AM By the way Joe... Has anyone told you lately that your a freakin machine? 21 mph average on a 41 mile ride and the run 7:30 average miles. I wanna be like you someday. Holy smokes Havent been doing anything special but putting in the miles for a few years now. There really is no trick other than consistency it seems. |
| 2007-07-20 9:08 AM in reply to: #894009 |
| Veteran 176 Sun Prairie, WI | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed That's what it just seems like sometimes. That getting the hard miles in will do the trick, and it will to an extent, but some folks are just built for speed. I'm sure Joe works his butt off, but I've seen him, and he's built for it too. Me, I'm muscular, thick, but lean, and stocky, and I can only get so fast. I am starting to learn that I could be a beast on the bike with my freakish legs though. So just use whatever you have to your advantage, and never get mad at yourself for not being a speed-demon, it's just not "in" everyone. Good luck to you two that are racing this weekend. |
| 2007-07-20 10:20 AM in reply to: #894009 |
Elite 4504 Columbus, Ohio | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed jszat - 2007-07-20 9:23 AM JChristoff - 2007-07-19 11:32 AM By the way Joe... Has anyone told you lately that your a freakin machine? 21 mph average on a 41 mile ride and the run 7:30 average miles. I wanna be like you someday. Holy smokes Havent been doing anything special but putting in the miles for a few years now. There really is no trick other than consistency it seems. I know... I have been seeing increases in my running speed and cycling speed over the last few years. I went from 10 to 9:00/mi to currently 8:30 to 8:00/mi training pace. I know it will get better/faster the more I train. It is all perspective and right now I could not imagine being that fast... that's all. |
| 2007-07-20 3:11 PM in reply to: #894086 |
Pro 3906 Libertyville, IL | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed stainofmind - 2007-07-20 9:08 AM That's what it just seems like sometimes. That getting the hard miles in will do the trick, and it will to an extent, but some folks are just built for speed. I'm sure Joe works his butt off, but I've seen him, and he's built for it too. Me, I'm muscular, thick, but lean, and stocky, and I can only get so fast. I am starting to learn that I could be a beast on the bike with my freakish legs though. So just use whatever you have to your advantage, and never get mad at yourself for not being a speed-demon, it's just not "in" everyone. Good luck to you two that are racing this weekend. Heh, dont think you would have said I was 'built for speed' at 200 pounds a few years back |
Just keep chipping away and challenging yourselves and you will see results. | 2007-07-22 9:09 AM in reply to: #803897 |
Elite 4504 Columbus, Ohio | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed Update: DNF. Got about half way on the second of three loops on the bike and flatted the rear tire. Fell and tore a couple holes into my right hand. Oh well, I lived to race another day. Check you guys later. Pissed and ready to do another... maybe sometime in August before the Oly in September Edited by JChristoff 2007-07-22 9:09 AM |
| 2007-07-22 11:33 AM in reply to: #803897 |
Pro 4827 McKinney, TX | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed The reason for the DNF was the holes in the hand? or the flat? Bummer. Any lessons learned? |
| 2007-07-22 5:32 PM in reply to: #895781 |
Elite 4504 Columbus, Ohio | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed It was the flat. I had left my repair kit at home because the strap broke on my last ride somehow. Walked my bike back to the the bridge that goes over the park walkway. Climbed over the chainlink fence and lugged my bike over it. Turned my chip into the RD group and was walking back to my wife. A couple of the Trek sponsors said that they would fix the wheel but I had already turned in my chip. Lesson learned: Always bring the repair kit. Keep a level head in a race situation. Don't give up too easy??? (I just didn't want to put any other racer at a disadvantage by asking for a tube) Be more of my inner boy scout??? The funny thing. I was more worried about my bike than I was about my bleeding hand or about my torn pants. Guess, it all comes to perspective when it just a minor wound. My wife was absolutely freaked when I came up through the park not on the road. I had walked up to her while she was watching the other racers stream by and asked "Who you waitin' for?" I still think that she wants to kick my now, just for the meer fact of the little scare. Just overall I needed to be more prepared for a race. I think it was karma or Gods way of telling me to focus. Still thinking about the whole situation and will let you know more when I have any further insight. Thanks for your concern Ken. Edited by JChristoff 2007-07-22 5:44 PM |
| 2007-07-27 10:11 AM in reply to: #803897 |
Pro 4827 McKinney, TX | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed How do each of you pull during your front crawl? Fingers tight together, hand cupped, arm almost straight? Fingers loose, arm bent ~90 degrees? etc? |
| 2007-07-28 11:00 AM in reply to: #903763 |
Elite 4504 Columbus, Ohio | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed KenD - 2007-07-27 11:11 AM How do each of you pull during your front crawl? Fingers tight together, hand cupped, arm almost straight? Fingers loose, arm bent ~90 degrees? etc? I extend/reach as far as possible to get as much stroke as possible without throwing off my balance. I pull back hands cupped and fingers together. I pull all the way to my hip and start the recover stroke. I keep my arms straight almost through my entire pull. I don't particularly notice my elbows bending during my stroke. I bi-lateral breathe and roll/turn my body to take a breath like in TI. My kick is, and always has been, straight legged and trying to "kick from your hips". I almost always keep my head down and when in open water I sight every 4th stroke. Hope that is what you are looking for. |
| 2007-07-31 10:54 AM in reply to: #803897 |
Pro 3906 Libertyville, IL | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed You dont want swim help from this guy. I am off to some actual lessons after IM Wisconsin is behind me. Ha. |
| 2007-07-31 10:59 AM in reply to: #803897 |
Pro 4827 McKinney, TX | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed It think I figured it out last night. I kept my arms almost straight for the entire pull. In the past, my triceps seemed to be the limiting muscle (that's why I was asking the question). But last night, the tri's were pumped but not overly tired and the lats were definitely pumped. Much better. I was reading your blogs, Joe. Geez 100 mile bike ride then putting kiddos on your back! What a machine! My kids used to absolutely love the back pack. If they were in it more than 20 minutes they would be asleep. |
| 2007-08-04 12:17 PM in reply to: #908129 |
Elite 4504 Columbus, Ohio | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed KenD - 2007-07-31 11:59 AM It think I figured it out last night. I kept my arms almost straight for the entire pull. In the past, my triceps seemed to be the limiting muscle (that's why I was asking the question). But last night, the tri's were pumped but not overly tired and the lats were definitely pumped. Much better. I have found with keeping your arms straight you get the entire arm system working with you. Your rear delts, lats and tris work together and you get a nice pull. If you bend your elbow your shoulders take a beating |
| 2007-08-06 10:36 AM in reply to: #913404 |
Pro 3906 Libertyville, IL | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed JChristoff - 2007-08-04 12:17 PM KenD - 2007-07-31 11:59 AM It think I figured it out last night. I kept my arms almost straight for the entire pull. In the past, my triceps seemed to be the limiting muscle (that's why I was asking the question). But last night, the tri's were pumped but not overly tired and the lats were definitely pumped. Much better. I have found with keeping your arms straight you get the entire arm system working with you. Your rear delts, lats and tris work together and you get a nice pull. If you bend your elbow your shoulders take a beatingI havent done nearly enough of this, but with almost 90 mins ya gotta keep engaged somehow, so threw in some fist drills. You do want to feel some pull through your forearm and use it like a canoe paddle. Just ball up your hand and try swimming a half a length and make sure your forearm is helping your pull. That said, there should be some bend in the arm methinks. When you say straight, is it windmilling? Cant picture it. |
| 2007-08-07 7:37 AM in reply to: #914700 |
Elite 4504 Columbus, Ohio | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed jszat - 2007-08-06 11:36 AM I havent done nearly enough of this, but with almost 90 mins ya gotta keep engaged somehow, so threw in some fist drills. You do want to feel some pull through your forearm and use it like a canoe paddle. Just ball up your hand and try swimming a half a length and make sure your forearm is helping your pull. That said, there should be some bend in the arm methinks. When you say straight, is it windmilling? Cant picture it. Straight in the water. Basically 180 degrees like a windmill. The recovery for the next stroke starts when I get my hand to my hip. The recovery is just like a normal front crawl... bend elbow, reach, smooth 45/30 degree arm entry into water, fully extend arm and pull. Does that help. It is like half a windmill. |
| 2007-08-07 8:58 AM in reply to: #915977 |
Extreme Veteran 832 Podunk County, MN | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed JChristoff, it's been a while since I've done any swim instructing or been coached, but that 's not a very efficient way to pull. I can't really explain the physics of it, but you're increasing the force you need to put out to pull your body through the water... Imagine doing an army crawl on dry land, and not using your legs for anything other than balance. You wouldn't want to use a straight arm to do that, right? Same goes for in the water. The bent elbow allows you to increase the force you can apply to the water in a way that is near to your body (i.e. more efficient). Of course, my last race's swim times would indicate that my pull isn't very efficient either (although I think that had a lot more to do with my sighting). Do a search for online swim videos on youtube - I know there are a bunch. They'll show you the optimal swim stroke as demonstrated by pros, and you won't find a straight elbow in the bunch or I'll eat my speedo. |
| 2007-08-07 9:08 AM in reply to: #903763 |
Extreme Veteran 832 Podunk County, MN | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed To answer Ken's original question, a long time ago in a galaxy far far away I was on swim team. I swam butterfly and backstroke primarily, but was a decent freestyler as well. My pull is loosely modelled on the pull you use for butterfly, although I keep tweaking around with it. Entry thumb first, hand perpendicular to the water. Fingers together but not "tight", thumb extended to side to increase the hand pad. Catch the water with your hand and pull the body forward with it, moving the hand out from the shoulder, with an increasing bend in the elbow until the elbow forms a nearly 90 degree angle when level with shoulder. Kind of like you're resting your arms on a table that's next to you at shoulder height, hand facing forward. At this point the body roll and arm work together to move the arm closer to the body, where you move from a "pull" to a "push" motion with your hand, pushing the water down the side of your body away from you to full extension next to your thigh. Repeat. |
| 2007-08-07 9:23 AM in reply to: #916080 |
Elite 4504 Columbus, Ohio | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed kanders - 2007-08-07 9:58 AM JChristoff, it's been a while since I've done any swim instructing or been coached, but that 's not a very efficient way to pull. I can't really explain the physics of it, but you're increasing the force you need to put out to pull your body through the water... Imagine doing an army crawl on dry land, and not using your legs for anything other than balance. You wouldn't want to use a straight arm to do that, right? Same goes for in the water. The bent elbow allows you to increase the force you can apply to the water in a way that is near to your body (i.e. more efficient). Of course, my last race's swim times would indicate that my pull isn't very efficient either (although I think that had a lot more to do with my sighting). Do a search for online swim videos on youtube - I know there are a bunch. They'll show you the optimal swim stroke as demonstrated by pros, and you won't find a straight elbow in the bunch or I'll eat my speedo. You're right about inefficiency... but it is the way I have always swam. (Insert boo noises here for not wanting/trying to improve something with my swim) I have found it is the most comfortable for me and I have never had any issues with joint pain doing it. You are probably also right that my swim times would be better. Like I have said before... I'm still learning but I am comfortable with my 1:40-1:30 average 100. I am still experimenting with my stoke and really haven't reached a plateau or really have thought about getting more improvement in my swim... I have been mostly worried about my run and bike. (insert more booing here for not focusing on all parts of the sport) |
| 2007-08-07 10:05 AM in reply to: #916100 |
Pro 4827 McKinney, TX | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed kanders - 2007-08-07 9:08 AM To answer Ken's original question, a long time ago in a galaxy far far away I was on swim team. Did you have your hair in "honey buns" on the side of your head? How did the swim cap fit over them? Thanks for the swim pull description. I was trying to figure out how the "keep your elbow high" I always hear about came into play. At first I thought it was the recovery, not the pull but now I'm thinking it's both. More experimentation is needed for me. |
| 2007-08-07 10:13 AM in reply to: #916138 |
Pro 3906 Libertyville, IL | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed JChristoff - 2007-08-07 9:23 AM kanders - 2007-08-07 9:58 AM JChristoff, it's been a while since I've done any swim instructing or been coached, but that 's not a very efficient way to pull. I can't really explain the physics of it, but you're increasing the force you need to put out to pull your body through the water... Imagine doing an army crawl on dry land, and not using your legs for anything other than balance. You wouldn't want to use a straight arm to do that, right? Same goes for in the water. The bent elbow allows you to increase the force you can apply to the water in a way that is near to your body (i.e. more efficient). Of course, my last race's swim times would indicate that my pull isn't very efficient either (although I think that had a lot more to do with my sighting). Do a search for online swim videos on youtube - I know there are a bunch. They'll show you the optimal swim stroke as demonstrated by pros, and you won't find a straight elbow in the bunch or I'll eat my speedo. You're right about inefficiency... but it is the way I have always swam. (Insert boo noises here for not wanting/trying to improve something with my swim) I have found it is the most comfortable for me and I have never had any issues with joint pain doing it. You are probably also right that my swim times would be better. Like I have said before... I'm still learning but I am comfortable with my 1:40-1:30 average 100. I am still experimenting with my stoke and really haven't reached a plateau or really have thought about getting more improvement in my swim... I have been mostly worried about my run and bike. (insert more booing here for not focusing on all parts of the sport)If it works, no reason to try and fix it methinks. There are a lot of folks that talk about not windmilling but your times are pretty freakin good, so no need to be apologetic about it or feel you have to do it how most peeps recommend. Its about getting from point A to point B as fast as ya can. I actually hope to finally take some lessons this winter to help get me to where you are so I am not giving the field a big lead on me. Usually top 10% run and bike, 50% bike. Hmm...where do I gotta work more? |
| 2007-08-07 10:20 AM in reply to: #916138 |
Extreme Veteran 832 Podunk County, MN | Subject: RE: jszat's group- closed Well, JChristoff, don't mess with what works. Those are really good times. I'm surprised you don't get shoulder pain from this method, but if you don't, that's cool. I'm also looking into getting some private lessons this winter, because I just can't seem to get my pool times down below a 1:45-1:50 threshold and it's bugging me. of course, the real problem would appear to be the 30 seconds that I add when I transfer into OWS... but Joe and I were talking about that and I think I'll have it nailed next season. We'll all be a bunch of sharks next year! |
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