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Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA (Page 9)
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 2014-07-10 4:24 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Champion  18680       Lost in the Luminiferous Aether |  Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACAOriginally posted by dmiller5 No they are givng that money to the employee to invest. When they give up control the money belongs to the employee not the company. You might argue that it is not yet fully vested but it seems to me that is splitting a pretty fine hair to manufacture outrage. Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by tuwood Hahaha well put!! I wonder how many people know every single company held by every mutual fund they have in their portfolio, retirement or otherwise. Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by powerman Originally posted by Goosedog New to the discussion and I haven't read much about it, so apologies for the simple question that I assume has been played out. But, is there a spiritual/religious distinction between your employee using their pay (a benefit) and your employee using an insurance plan (a benefit) to obtain the procedures in question? I'm talking about the spiritual/religious implication for the business owner. Thank you. Yes, to Hobby Lobby there is, and the SCOTUS agreed. Because Hobby Lobby pays for it out of their pocket. They don't want to do that. What people do with their pay is a different issue and Hobby Lobby said nothing about that..... and just to interject some actual facts instead of generalized misinformation (not to you specifically).... Fact is Hobby Lobby paid for 16 CONTRACEPTIVES for women. They classified 4 as ABORTIFACIENTS and did not want to pay for THOSE. Obamacare MANDATED those be covered, and Hobby Lobby said no.... and the SCOTUS agreed with them. I disagree with Corporation being given personal rights, but I do not care if Hobby Lobby objects on religious grounds and the hole riddled Obamacare lost.
explain
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-invests-in-em_n_5070279.html I always love the faux hypocrite stories. So, HL has a 401k that's ran by an external investment company that offers standard mutual funds that people can opt to purchase and some of those mutual funds invest in pharmaceutical sectors, which includes companies that manufacture birth control pills. Yeaaahhhh, totaly the same thing. Those Hypocrites. You take a case to the Supreme Court because its SO against your beliefs to allow your employees to get birth control, but you're ok with making money off of it. And the I didn't know I was doing it excuse doesn't fly here as Hobby Lobby has demonstrated that they are so concerned with this issue. I know you really want this to help the cause, but it's just not the way 401k's work. 401k's are a tax deferred retirement savings program that a company sets up for it's employees. The company can optionally match contributions to the 401k, but have no control over what funds the employees choose to invest in other than what investment firm they use to broker and manage the 401k. For example, I have a 401k for my employee's that is managed by a local investment company. Each employee has a 401k account that they log into and select which mutual funds they want to invest in and there are something like 70 different ones they can choose. I contribute money into the accounts as matching funds and my employees and pay an annual fee for them to manage it, but that's it. I get absolutely zero gain of any kind from a 401k as a business owner because it's not a business investment, it's an employee owned retirement account. So, to say that hobby lobby is "making money" off of employee retirement accounts is kind of silly when you put it in context. The furthest stretch you could use and be distantly accurate would be to say Hobby Lobby employees make money off of mutual funds that invest in pharmaceutical companies that manufacture birth control. So if the employer makes any contribution to their employee's 401k they are investing in the company on the employee's behalf. Wouldn't that also be against their beliefs in the same vein that the court case was? |
| 2014-07-10 4:32 PM in reply to: trinnas |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by dmiller5 No they are givng that money to the employee to invest. When they give up control the money belongs to the employee not the company. You might argue that it is not yet fully vested but it seems to me that is splitting a pretty fine hair to manufacture outrage. Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by tuwood Hahaha well put!! I wonder how many people know every single company held by every mutual fund they have in their portfolio, retirement or otherwise. Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by powerman Originally posted by Goosedog New to the discussion and I haven't read much about it, so apologies for the simple question that I assume has been played out. But, is there a spiritual/religious distinction between your employee using their pay (a benefit) and your employee using an insurance plan (a benefit) to obtain the procedures in question? I'm talking about the spiritual/religious implication for the business owner. Thank you. Yes, to Hobby Lobby there is, and the SCOTUS agreed. Because Hobby Lobby pays for it out of their pocket. They don't want to do that. What people do with their pay is a different issue and Hobby Lobby said nothing about that..... and just to interject some actual facts instead of generalized misinformation (not to you specifically).... Fact is Hobby Lobby paid for 16 CONTRACEPTIVES for women. They classified 4 as ABORTIFACIENTS and did not want to pay for THOSE. Obamacare MANDATED those be covered, and Hobby Lobby said no.... and the SCOTUS agreed with them. I disagree with Corporation being given personal rights, but I do not care if Hobby Lobby objects on religious grounds and the hole riddled Obamacare lost.
explain
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-invests-in-em_n_5070279.html I always love the faux hypocrite stories. So, HL has a 401k that's ran by an external investment company that offers standard mutual funds that people can opt to purchase and some of those mutual funds invest in pharmaceutical sectors, which includes companies that manufacture birth control pills. Yeaaahhhh, totaly the same thing. Those Hypocrites. You take a case to the Supreme Court because its SO against your beliefs to allow your employees to get birth control, but you're ok with making money off of it. And the I didn't know I was doing it excuse doesn't fly here as Hobby Lobby has demonstrated that they are so concerned with this issue. I know you really want this to help the cause, but it's just not the way 401k's work. 401k's are a tax deferred retirement savings program that a company sets up for it's employees. The company can optionally match contributions to the 401k, but have no control over what funds the employees choose to invest in other than what investment firm they use to broker and manage the 401k. For example, I have a 401k for my employee's that is managed by a local investment company. Each employee has a 401k account that they log into and select which mutual funds they want to invest in and there are something like 70 different ones they can choose. I contribute money into the accounts as matching funds and my employees and pay an annual fee for them to manage it, but that's it. I get absolutely zero gain of any kind from a 401k as a business owner because it's not a business investment, it's an employee owned retirement account. So, to say that hobby lobby is "making money" off of employee retirement accounts is kind of silly when you put it in context. The furthest stretch you could use and be distantly accurate would be to say Hobby Lobby employees make money off of mutual funds that invest in pharmaceutical companies that manufacture birth control. So if the employer makes any contribution to their employee's 401k they are investing in the company on the employee's behalf. Wouldn't that also be against their beliefs in the same vein that the court case was? I don't get offended or mad enough about things.....in this case, I volunteer to be outraged!! What is it again? |
| 2014-07-10 7:53 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by Left Brain I don't get offended or mad enough about things.....in this case, I volunteer to be outraged!! What is it again? Oh I'm sure we can find something to outrage you!! How do you feel about kittens and leg shaving? |
| 2014-07-10 7:58 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain Oh I'm sure we can find something to outrage you!! How do you feel about kittens and leg shaving? I don't get offended or mad enough about things.....in this case, I volunteer to be outraged!! What is it again? I think they look great with the right body. Edited by Left Brain 2014-07-10 8:01 PM |
| 2014-07-10 8:13 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain Oh I'm sure we can find something to outrage you!! How do you feel about kittens and leg shaving? I don't get offended or mad enough about things.....in this case, I volunteer to be outraged!! What is it again? I think they look great with the right body. Shoot, I'll have to try harder next time!! |
| 2014-07-11 8:13 AM in reply to: trinnas |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain Shoot, I'll have to try harder next time!! Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain Oh I'm sure we can find something to outrage you!! How do you feel about kittens and leg shaving? I don't get offended or mad enough about things.....in this case, I volunteer to be outraged!! What is it again? I think they look great with the right body. I think shaving kittens could spark an outrage???? |
| 2014-07-11 9:40 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by dmiller5 No they are givng that money to the employee to invest. When they give up control the money belongs to the employee not the company. You might argue that it is not yet fully vested but it seems to me that is splitting a pretty fine hair to manufacture outrage. Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by tuwood Hahaha well put!! I wonder how many people know every single company held by every mutual fund they have in their portfolio, retirement or otherwise. Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by powerman Originally posted by Goosedog New to the discussion and I haven't read much about it, so apologies for the simple question that I assume has been played out. But, is there a spiritual/religious distinction between your employee using their pay (a benefit) and your employee using an insurance plan (a benefit) to obtain the procedures in question? I'm talking about the spiritual/religious implication for the business owner. Thank you. Yes, to Hobby Lobby there is, and the SCOTUS agreed. Because Hobby Lobby pays for it out of their pocket. They don't want to do that. What people do with their pay is a different issue and Hobby Lobby said nothing about that..... and just to interject some actual facts instead of generalized misinformation (not to you specifically).... Fact is Hobby Lobby paid for 16 CONTRACEPTIVES for women. They classified 4 as ABORTIFACIENTS and did not want to pay for THOSE. Obamacare MANDATED those be covered, and Hobby Lobby said no.... and the SCOTUS agreed with them. I disagree with Corporation being given personal rights, but I do not care if Hobby Lobby objects on religious grounds and the hole riddled Obamacare lost.
explain
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-invests-in-em_n_5070279.html I always love the faux hypocrite stories. So, HL has a 401k that's ran by an external investment company that offers standard mutual funds that people can opt to purchase and some of those mutual funds invest in pharmaceutical sectors, which includes companies that manufacture birth control pills. Yeaaahhhh, totaly the same thing. Those Hypocrites. You take a case to the Supreme Court because its SO against your beliefs to allow your employees to get birth control, but you're ok with making money off of it. And the I didn't know I was doing it excuse doesn't fly here as Hobby Lobby has demonstrated that they are so concerned with this issue. I know you really want this to help the cause, but it's just not the way 401k's work. 401k's are a tax deferred retirement savings program that a company sets up for it's employees. The company can optionally match contributions to the 401k, but have no control over what funds the employees choose to invest in other than what investment firm they use to broker and manage the 401k. For example, I have a 401k for my employee's that is managed by a local investment company. Each employee has a 401k account that they log into and select which mutual funds they want to invest in and there are something like 70 different ones they can choose. I contribute money into the accounts as matching funds and my employees and pay an annual fee for them to manage it, but that's it. I get absolutely zero gain of any kind from a 401k as a business owner because it's not a business investment, it's an employee owned retirement account. So, to say that hobby lobby is "making money" off of employee retirement accounts is kind of silly when you put it in context. The furthest stretch you could use and be distantly accurate would be to say Hobby Lobby employees make money off of mutual funds that invest in pharmaceutical companies that manufacture birth control. So if the employer makes any contribution to their employee's 401k they are investing in the company on the employee's behalf. Wouldn't that also be against their beliefs in the same vein that the court case was? I don't get offended or mad enough about things.....in this case, I volunteer to be outraged!! What is it again?
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| 2014-07-16 1:59 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 297 Arden, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by Left Brain I've always felt that when it comes to abortion and contraception for women we'd probably all be better served if men stayed out of it. Again man...this is getting really really weird!  |
| 2014-07-16 3:21 PM in reply to: TriDadinAsheville |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain Again man...this is getting really really weird! I've always felt that when it comes to abortion and contraception for women we'd probably all be better served if men stayed out of it. You're gonna need counseling. |
| 2014-07-16 3:57 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain Again man...this is getting really really weird! I've always felt that when it comes to abortion and contraception for women we'd probably all be better served if men stayed out of it. You're gonna need counseling. Sorry boys but that's the easy way out! Like it or not when it comes to abortion men have a vested interest. It takes two to tang after all and men reap the repercussionist of their actions as much as women. To abdicate that responsibly is to say that she potentially has the power to unilaterally determine a big part of your future. |
| 2014-07-17 12:52 AM in reply to: trinnas |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain Sorry boys but that's the easy way out! Like it or not when it comes to abortion men have a vested interest. It takes two to tang after all and men reap the repercussionist of their actions as much as women. To abdicate that responsibly is to say that she potentially has the power to unilaterally determine a big part of your future. Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain Again man...this is getting really really weird! I've always felt that when it comes to abortion and contraception for women we'd probably all be better served if men stayed out of it. You're gonna need counseling. Where in the world did I abdicate (is that really a word?) my responsibility? Hell, I've got 5 kids. My only point is that men should not get to decide a woman's responsibility....that's for ya'll to take care of....it's your body. That's what I get for sticking up for women.....it's always a losing proposition because half of you can't get on board with the other half. Men don't have that problem......we're just happy to have a few beers and a few intimate minutes of your time.....there is little dissention among us. |
| 2014-07-17 7:30 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain Sorry boys but that's the easy way out! Like it or not when it comes to abortion men have a vested interest. It takes two to tang after all and men reap the repercussionist of their actions as much as women. To abdicate that responsibly is to say that she potentially has the power to unilaterally determine a big part of your future. Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain Again man...this is getting really really weird! I've always felt that when it comes to abortion and contraception for women we'd probably all be better served if men stayed out of it. You're gonna need counseling. Where in the world did I abdicate (is that really a word?) my responsibility? Hell, I've got 5 kids. My only point is that men should not get to decide a woman's responsibility....that's for ya'll to take care of....it's your body. That's what I get for sticking up for women.....it's always a losing proposition because half of you can't get on board with the other half. Men don't have that problem......we're just happy to have a few beers and a few intimate minutes of your time.....there is little dissention among us. When you are discussing abortion, at some point, regardless of where you chose to delineate that point, it becomes more than just her responsibility,. It is a shared responsibility and as such should be a shared discussion. There is a third person that must be factored into the equation at some point. Thanks for sticking up for me, I appreciate it, however, I am not so closed minded or vehement about my sexuality as to think I have the only answer due to my gender. I also do not believe that men have nothing of value to add due to theirs. As for men not dissenting, you must be new around here.  . This forum is filled with men dissenting on just about every imaginable topic. Why should women's beliefs run in lock step with one another? My rational being is not due to my gender but do to my experience as a person. Yes that is colored by my gender but it is not determined by it any more than yours is determined solely by your gender. |
| 2014-07-17 9:11 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain When you are discussing abortion, at some point, regardless of where you chose to delineate that point, it becomes more than just her responsibility,. It is a shared responsibility and as such should be a shared discussion. There is a third person that must be factored into the equation at some point. Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain Sorry boys but that's the easy way out! Like it or not when it comes to abortion men have a vested interest. It takes two to tang after all and men reap the repercussionist of their actions as much as women. To abdicate that responsibly is to say that she potentially has the power to unilaterally determine a big part of your future. Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain Again man...this is getting really really weird! I've always felt that when it comes to abortion and contraception for women we'd probably all be better served if men stayed out of it. You're gonna need counseling. Where in the world did I abdicate (is that really a word?) my responsibility? Hell, I've got 5 kids. My only point is that men should not get to decide a woman's responsibility....that's for ya'll to take care of....it's your body. That's what I get for sticking up for women.....it's always a losing proposition because half of you can't get on board with the other half. Men don't have that problem......we're just happy to have a few beers and a few intimate minutes of your time.....there is little dissention among us.
There are quite a few people who would disagree with that. My heart says that's right, but my head tells me that I can have my say but I don't really have any control over what a woman choses to do. If a woman chooses to have an abortion that's her choice. I can agree or disagree with it, but that's really all I can do. That's the whole deal with the abortion issue to me......l never get past that point to get to a point where I have to consider whether it's right or wrong, and I've never had to.....I have been responsible when it comes to sex because I don't want to have to consider it..... I have no idea what the right answer is because both sides of the argument make at least some sense to me. I choose not to participate in the discussion. (and yet you drug me in to it anyway) Edited by Left Brain 2014-07-17 9:12 AM |
| 2014-07-17 8:40 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain When you are discussing abortion, at some point, regardless of where you chose to delineate that point, it becomes more than just her responsibility,. It is a shared responsibility and as such should be a shared discussion. There is a third person that must be factored into the equation at some point. Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain Sorry boys but that's the easy way out! Like it or not when it comes to abortion men have a vested interest. It takes two to tang after all and men reap the repercussionist of their actions as much as women. To abdicate that responsibly is to say that she potentially has the power to unilaterally determine a big part of your future. Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain Again man...this is getting really really weird! I've always felt that when it comes to abortion and contraception for women we'd probably all be better served if men stayed out of it. You're gonna need counseling. Where in the world did I abdicate (is that really a word?) my responsibility? Hell, I've got 5 kids. My only point is that men should not get to decide a woman's responsibility....that's for ya'll to take care of....it's your body. That's what I get for sticking up for women.....it's always a losing proposition because half of you can't get on board with the other half. Men don't have that problem......we're just happy to have a few beers and a few intimate minutes of your time.....there is little dissention among us.
There are quite a few people who would disagree with that. My heart says that's right, but my head tells me that I can have my say but I don't really have any control over what a woman choses to do. If a woman chooses to have an abortion that's her choice. I can agree or disagree with it, but that's really all I can do. That's the whole deal with the abortion issue to me......l never get past that point to get to a point where I have to consider whether it's right or wrong, and I've never had to.....I have been responsible when it comes to sex because I don't want to have to consider it..... I have no idea what the right answer is because both sides of the argument make at least some sense to me. I choose not to participate in the discussion. (and yet you drug me in to it anyway) And yet if a woman choses to take drugs society has a say in the matter even though there is no other life involved. I simply do not see how one can say that a man has a shared responsibility after birth and yet has no say during gestation. That seems rather like taxation without representation to me. It is, of course, not quite that simple but again to say men have no place in the process is ludicrous. As women we cannot have our cake and eat it too which many seem to want. I agree that not being put into the position in the first place is best but reality is, when it comes to sex, "stuff" happens, particularly when alcohol is involved as it often is. I don't think I have all the right answers either because you are correct that both sides have some very salient points! As for dragging you in all I can say is...... "My work here is done!" |
| 2014-07-17 8:46 PM in reply to: trinnas |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain And yet if a woman choses to take drugs society has a say in the matter even though there is no other life involved. I simply do not see how one can say that a man has a shared responsibility after birth and yet has no say during gestation. That seems rather like taxation without representation to me. It is, of course, not quite that simple but again to say men have no place in the process is ludicrous. As women we cannot have our cake and eat it too which many seem to want. I agree that not being put into the position in the first place is best but reality is, when it comes to sex, "stuff" happens, particularly when alcohol is involved as it often is. I don't think I have all the right answers either because you are correct that both sides have some very salient points! As for dragging you in all I can say is...... "My work here is done!" Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain When you are discussing abortion, at some point, regardless of where you chose to delineate that point, it becomes more than just her responsibility,. It is a shared responsibility and as such should be a shared discussion. There is a third person that must be factored into the equation at some point. Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain Sorry boys but that's the easy way out! Like it or not when it comes to abortion men have a vested interest. It takes two to tang after all and men reap the repercussionist of their actions as much as women. To abdicate that responsibly is to say that she potentially has the power to unilaterally determine a big part of your future. Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain Again man...this is getting really really weird! I've always felt that when it comes to abortion and contraception for women we'd probably all be better served if men stayed out of it. You're gonna need counseling. Where in the world did I abdicate (is that really a word?) my responsibility? Hell, I've got 5 kids. My only point is that men should not get to decide a woman's responsibility....that's for ya'll to take care of....it's your body. That's what I get for sticking up for women.....it's always a losing proposition because half of you can't get on board with the other half. Men don't have that problem......we're just happy to have a few beers and a few intimate minutes of your time.....there is little dissention among us.
There are quite a few people who would disagree with that. My heart says that's right, but my head tells me that I can have my say but I don't really have any control over what a woman choses to do. If a woman chooses to have an abortion that's her choice. I can agree or disagree with it, but that's really all I can do. That's the whole deal with the abortion issue to me......l never get past that point to get to a point where I have to consider whether it's right or wrong, and I've never had to.....I have been responsible when it comes to sex because I don't want to have to consider it..... I have no idea what the right answer is because both sides of the argument make at least some sense to me. I choose not to participate in the discussion. (and yet you drug me in to it anyway) No, stuff doesn't happen, and alcohol is not an excuse. I am responsible. BUT.....I have no say in what a woman chooses to do. I don't control anyone......you are in charge of your own mind and body. C'mon.....be serious.....no man can control whether a woman has an abortion.....nor should we. You want to talk about "cake and eat it to"? Really? LMAO No woman wants to be controlled by any man.....and I'm on that team....so don't try to tell me I have control over what a woman does with a pregnancy....I certainly do not. |
| 2014-07-17 10:31 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain And yet if a woman choses to take drugs society has a say in the matter even though there is no other life involved. I simply do not see how one can say that a man has a shared responsibility after birth and yet has no say during gestation. That seems rather like taxation without representation to me. It is, of course, not quite that simple but again to say men have no place in the process is ludicrous. As women we cannot have our cake and eat it too which many seem to want. I agree that not being put into the position in the first place is best but reality is, when it comes to sex, "stuff" happens, particularly when alcohol is involved as it often is. I don't think I have all the right answers either because you are correct that both sides have some very salient points! As for dragging you in all I can say is...... "My work here is done!" Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain When you are discussing abortion, at some point, regardless of where you chose to delineate that point, it becomes more than just her responsibility,. It is a shared responsibility and as such should be a shared discussion. There is a third person that must be factored into the equation at some point. Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain Sorry boys but that's the easy way out! Like it or not when it comes to abortion men have a vested interest. It takes two to tang after all and men reap the repercussionist of their actions as much as women. To abdicate that responsibly is to say that she potentially has the power to unilaterally determine a big part of your future. Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain Again man...this is getting really really weird! I've always felt that when it comes to abortion and contraception for women we'd probably all be better served if men stayed out of it. You're gonna need counseling. Where in the world did I abdicate (is that really a word?) my responsibility? Hell, I've got 5 kids. My only point is that men should not get to decide a woman's responsibility....that's for ya'll to take care of....it's your body. That's what I get for sticking up for women.....it's always a losing proposition because half of you can't get on board with the other half. Men don't have that problem......we're just happy to have a few beers and a few intimate minutes of your time.....there is little dissention among us.
There are quite a few people who would disagree with that. My heart says that's right, but my head tells me that I can have my say but I don't really have any control over what a woman choses to do. If a woman chooses to have an abortion that's her choice. I can agree or disagree with it, but that's really all I can do. That's the whole deal with the abortion issue to me......l never get past that point to get to a point where I have to consider whether it's right or wrong, and I've never had to.....I have been responsible when it comes to sex because I don't want to have to consider it..... I have no idea what the right answer is because both sides of the argument make at least some sense to me. I choose not to participate in the discussion. (and yet you drug me in to it anyway) No, stuff doesn't happen, and alcohol is not an excuse. I am responsible. BUT.....I have no say in what a woman chooses to do. I don't control anyone......you are in charge of your own mind and body. C'mon.....be serious.....no man can control whether a woman has an abortion.....nor should we. You want to talk about "cake and eat it to"? Really? LMAO No woman wants to be controlled by any man.....and I'm on that team....so don't try to tell me I have control over what a woman does with a pregnancy....I certainly do not. You can deny it all you want but the reality is people do not always make the best choices when it comes to sex. I am not talking about excuses I am talking about what happens in the real world, right, wrong or indifferent! If everyone behaved perfectly all the time there would be no need for laws or contentious discussions. I'm in charge of my mind and body? It's my turn to LMAO! If I am in charge of my own mind and body then why can't I take drugs, commit suicide, prostitute myself or any number of other things without society stepping in to say no? These are all laws predominantly put into place by men. You say you don't want to control women yet you do it every day! Abortion and child bearing both have consequences for both genders and as such it is something that should be dealt with by both genders. It is too complex an issue to just say "my body, my choice"! My choice has consequences that involve other people! It would be supremely arrogant not to mention selfish of my gender to say that men have no place in the discussion about how to proceed. It is more than just the man and the woman here. At some point there is another life to consider. Again you can debate the point at which that occurs but you cannot deny it. We are not simply talking about removing an appendix here! I would agree with you that most of the time it should be a woman's choice but there are boundaries here and both genders need to be involved in looking at those boundaries as both genders are affected by the decisions! And I am not talking abpout paternalistic dictates here I am talking about open and honest discussions and decisions about the issues. I happen to believe that most... well ok, many men.... are capable of just that. I also believe that others of my gender are intelligent and strong enough that we are capable of acknowledging that we are not the only ones who are affected and as such that it needs to be a joint discussion. |
| 2014-07-18 8:21 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain You can deny it all you want but the reality is people do not always make the best choices when it comes to sex. I am not talking about excuses I am talking about what happens in the real world, right, wrong or indifferent! If everyone behaved perfectly all the time there would be no need for laws or contentious discussions. I'm in charge of my mind and body? It's my turn to LMAO! If I am in charge of my own mind and body then why can't I take drugs, commit suicide, prostitute myself or any number of other things without society stepping in to say no? These are all laws predominantly put into place by men. You say you don't want to control women yet you do it every day! Abortion and child bearing both have consequences for both genders and as such it is something that should be dealt with by both genders. It is too complex an issue to just say "my body, my choice"! My choice has consequences that involve other people! It would be supremely arrogant not to mention selfish of my gender to say that men have no place in the discussion about how to proceed. It is more than just the man and the woman here. At some point there is another life to consider. Again you can debate the point at which that occurs but you cannot deny it. We are not simply talking about removing an appendix here! I would agree with you that most of the time it should be a woman's choice but there are boundaries here and both genders need to be involved in looking at those boundaries as both genders are affected by the decisions! And I am not talking abpout paternalistic dictates here I am talking about open and honest discussions and decisions about the issues. I happen to believe that most... well ok, many men.... are capable of just that. I also believe that others of my gender are intelligent and strong enough that we are capable of acknowledging that we are not the only ones who are affected and as such that it needs to be a joint discussion. Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain And yet if a woman choses to take drugs society has a say in the matter even though there is no other life involved. I simply do not see how one can say that a man has a shared responsibility after birth and yet has no say during gestation. That seems rather like taxation without representation to me. It is, of course, not quite that simple but again to say men have no place in the process is ludicrous. As women we cannot have our cake and eat it too which many seem to want. I agree that not being put into the position in the first place is best but reality is, when it comes to sex, "stuff" happens, particularly when alcohol is involved as it often is. I don't think I have all the right answers either because you are correct that both sides have some very salient points! As for dragging you in all I can say is...... "My work here is done!" Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain When you are discussing abortion, at some point, regardless of where you chose to delineate that point, it becomes more than just her responsibility,. It is a shared responsibility and as such should be a shared discussion. There is a third person that must be factored into the equation at some point. Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain Sorry boys but that's the easy way out! Like it or not when it comes to abortion men have a vested interest. It takes two to tang after all and men reap the repercussionist of their actions as much as women. To abdicate that responsibly is to say that she potentially has the power to unilaterally determine a big part of your future. Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain Again man...this is getting really really weird! I've always felt that when it comes to abortion and contraception for women we'd probably all be better served if men stayed out of it. You're gonna need counseling. Where in the world did I abdicate (is that really a word?) my responsibility? Hell, I've got 5 kids. My only point is that men should not get to decide a woman's responsibility....that's for ya'll to take care of....it's your body. That's what I get for sticking up for women.....it's always a losing proposition because half of you can't get on board with the other half. Men don't have that problem......we're just happy to have a few beers and a few intimate minutes of your time.....there is little dissention among us.
There are quite a few people who would disagree with that. My heart says that's right, but my head tells me that I can have my say but I don't really have any control over what a woman choses to do. If a woman chooses to have an abortion that's her choice. I can agree or disagree with it, but that's really all I can do. That's the whole deal with the abortion issue to me......l never get past that point to get to a point where I have to consider whether it's right or wrong, and I've never had to.....I have been responsible when it comes to sex because I don't want to have to consider it..... I have no idea what the right answer is because both sides of the argument make at least some sense to me. I choose not to participate in the discussion. (and yet you drug me in to it anyway) No, stuff doesn't happen, and alcohol is not an excuse. I am responsible. BUT.....I have no say in what a woman chooses to do. I don't control anyone......you are in charge of your own mind and body. C'mon.....be serious.....no man can control whether a woman has an abortion.....nor should we. You want to talk about "cake and eat it to"? Really? LMAO No woman wants to be controlled by any man.....and I'm on that team....so don't try to tell me I have control over what a woman does with a pregnancy....I certainly do not. I never said that both parties should not be involved in the discussion......what I said was that, in the end, a woman will do what she wants, IF that's what she decides to do, either after discussion or not. Once that happens.....I'm out of the equation. I'm OK with that....because I know I can't control what other people do with their bodies. BTW - you can take drugs, commit suicide, or prostitute yourself.....go ahead and see if you can't get it done. Edited by Left Brain 2014-07-18 8:23 AM |
| 2014-07-18 8:52 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain You can deny it all you want but the reality is people do not always make the best choices when it comes to sex. I am not talking about excuses I am talking about what happens in the real world, right, wrong or indifferent! If everyone behaved perfectly all the time there would be no need for laws or contentious discussions. I'm in charge of my mind and body? It's my turn to LMAO! If I am in charge of my own mind and body then why can't I take drugs, commit suicide, prostitute myself or any number of other things without society stepping in to say no? These are all laws predominantly put into place by men. You say you don't want to control women yet you do it every day! Abortion and child bearing both have consequences for both genders and as such it is something that should be dealt with by both genders. It is too complex an issue to just say "my body, my choice"! My choice has consequences that involve other people! It would be supremely arrogant not to mention selfish of my gender to say that men have no place in the discussion about how to proceed. It is more than just the man and the woman here. At some point there is another life to consider. Again you can debate the point at which that occurs but you cannot deny it. We are not simply talking about removing an appendix here! I would agree with you that most of the time it should be a woman's choice but there are boundaries here and both genders need to be involved in looking at those boundaries as both genders are affected by the decisions! And I am not talking abpout paternalistic dictates here I am talking about open and honest discussions and decisions about the issues. I happen to believe that most... well ok, many men.... are capable of just that. I also believe that others of my gender are intelligent and strong enough that we are capable of acknowledging that we are not the only ones who are affected and as such that it needs to be a joint discussion. Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain And yet if a woman choses to take drugs society has a say in the matter even though there is no other life involved. I simply do not see how one can say that a man has a shared responsibility after birth and yet has no say during gestation. That seems rather like taxation without representation to me. It is, of course, not quite that simple but again to say men have no place in the process is ludicrous. As women we cannot have our cake and eat it too which many seem to want. I agree that not being put into the position in the first place is best but reality is, when it comes to sex, "stuff" happens, particularly when alcohol is involved as it often is. I don't think I have all the right answers either because you are correct that both sides have some very salient points! As for dragging you in all I can say is...... "My work here is done!" Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain When you are discussing abortion, at some point, regardless of where you chose to delineate that point, it becomes more than just her responsibility,. It is a shared responsibility and as such should be a shared discussion. There is a third person that must be factored into the equation at some point. Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain Sorry boys but that's the easy way out! Like it or not when it comes to abortion men have a vested interest. It takes two to tang after all and men reap the repercussionist of their actions as much as women. To abdicate that responsibly is to say that she potentially has the power to unilaterally determine a big part of your future. Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain Again man...this is getting really really weird! I've always felt that when it comes to abortion and contraception for women we'd probably all be better served if men stayed out of it. You're gonna need counseling. Where in the world did I abdicate (is that really a word?) my responsibility? Hell, I've got 5 kids. My only point is that men should not get to decide a woman's responsibility....that's for ya'll to take care of....it's your body. That's what I get for sticking up for women.....it's always a losing proposition because half of you can't get on board with the other half. Men don't have that problem......we're just happy to have a few beers and a few intimate minutes of your time.....there is little dissention among us.
There are quite a few people who would disagree with that. My heart says that's right, but my head tells me that I can have my say but I don't really have any control over what a woman choses to do. If a woman chooses to have an abortion that's her choice. I can agree or disagree with it, but that's really all I can do. That's the whole deal with the abortion issue to me......l never get past that point to get to a point where I have to consider whether it's right or wrong, and I've never had to.....I have been responsible when it comes to sex because I don't want to have to consider it..... I have no idea what the right answer is because both sides of the argument make at least some sense to me. I choose not to participate in the discussion. (and yet you drug me in to it anyway) No, stuff doesn't happen, and alcohol is not an excuse. I am responsible. BUT.....I have no say in what a woman chooses to do. I don't control anyone......you are in charge of your own mind and body. C'mon.....be serious.....no man can control whether a woman has an abortion.....nor should we. You want to talk about "cake and eat it to"? Really? LMAO No woman wants to be controlled by any man.....and I'm on that team....so don't try to tell me I have control over what a woman does with a pregnancy....I certainly do not. I never said that both parties should not be involved in the discussion......what I said was that, in the end, a woman will do what she wants, IF that's what she decides to do, either after discussion or not. Once that happens.....I'm out of the equation. I'm OK with that....because I know I can't control what other people do with their bodies. BTW - you can take drugs, commit suicide, or prostitute yourself.....go ahead and see if you can't get it done. So if 19 year old LB has a one nighter and accidentally gets a girl preggers and she decides to have the baby and make you pay child support for the next 20+ years, you don't think you should have any say in the matter at all? Her decision is going to have a HUGE impact on the rest of your life, right? I know legally, our laws have to make a distinction and they ultimately give the choice to the prospective mother, but I feel it's overly simplistic to just say it's her body, so she can do what she wants. |
| 2014-07-18 9:12 AM in reply to: tuwood |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain You can deny it all you want but the reality is people do not always make the best choices when it comes to sex. I am not talking about excuses I am talking about what happens in the real world, right, wrong or indifferent! If everyone behaved perfectly all the time there would be no need for laws or contentious discussions. I'm in charge of my mind and body? It's my turn to LMAO! If I am in charge of my own mind and body then why can't I take drugs, commit suicide, prostitute myself or any number of other things without society stepping in to say no? These are all laws predominantly put into place by men. You say you don't want to control women yet you do it every day! Abortion and child bearing both have consequences for both genders and as such it is something that should be dealt with by both genders. It is too complex an issue to just say "my body, my choice"! My choice has consequences that involve other people! It would be supremely arrogant not to mention selfish of my gender to say that men have no place in the discussion about how to proceed. It is more than just the man and the woman here. At some point there is another life to consider. Again you can debate the point at which that occurs but you cannot deny it. We are not simply talking about removing an appendix here! I would agree with you that most of the time it should be a woman's choice but there are boundaries here and both genders need to be involved in looking at those boundaries as both genders are affected by the decisions! And I am not talking abpout paternalistic dictates here I am talking about open and honest discussions and decisions about the issues. I happen to believe that most... well ok, many men.... are capable of just that. I also believe that others of my gender are intelligent and strong enough that we are capable of acknowledging that we are not the only ones who are affected and as such that it needs to be a joint discussion. Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain And yet if a woman choses to take drugs society has a say in the matter even though there is no other life involved. I simply do not see how one can say that a man has a shared responsibility after birth and yet has no say during gestation. That seems rather like taxation without representation to me. It is, of course, not quite that simple but again to say men have no place in the process is ludicrous. As women we cannot have our cake and eat it too which many seem to want. I agree that not being put into the position in the first place is best but reality is, when it comes to sex, "stuff" happens, particularly when alcohol is involved as it often is. I don't think I have all the right answers either because you are correct that both sides have some very salient points! As for dragging you in all I can say is...... "My work here is done!" Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain When you are discussing abortion, at some point, regardless of where you chose to delineate that point, it becomes more than just her responsibility,. It is a shared responsibility and as such should be a shared discussion. There is a third person that must be factored into the equation at some point. Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain Sorry boys but that's the easy way out! Like it or not when it comes to abortion men have a vested interest. It takes two to tang after all and men reap the repercussionist of their actions as much as women. To abdicate that responsibly is to say that she potentially has the power to unilaterally determine a big part of your future. Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain Again man...this is getting really really weird! I've always felt that when it comes to abortion and contraception for women we'd probably all be better served if men stayed out of it. You're gonna need counseling. Where in the world did I abdicate (is that really a word?) my responsibility? Hell, I've got 5 kids. My only point is that men should not get to decide a woman's responsibility....that's for ya'll to take care of....it's your body. That's what I get for sticking up for women.....it's always a losing proposition because half of you can't get on board with the other half. Men don't have that problem......we're just happy to have a few beers and a few intimate minutes of your time.....there is little dissention among us.
There are quite a few people who would disagree with that. My heart says that's right, but my head tells me that I can have my say but I don't really have any control over what a woman choses to do. If a woman chooses to have an abortion that's her choice. I can agree or disagree with it, but that's really all I can do. That's the whole deal with the abortion issue to me......l never get past that point to get to a point where I have to consider whether it's right or wrong, and I've never had to.....I have been responsible when it comes to sex because I don't want to have to consider it..... I have no idea what the right answer is because both sides of the argument make at least some sense to me. I choose not to participate in the discussion. (and yet you drug me in to it anyway) No, stuff doesn't happen, and alcohol is not an excuse. I am responsible. BUT.....I have no say in what a woman chooses to do. I don't control anyone......you are in charge of your own mind and body. C'mon.....be serious.....no man can control whether a woman has an abortion.....nor should we. You want to talk about "cake and eat it to"? Really? LMAO No woman wants to be controlled by any man.....and I'm on that team....so don't try to tell me I have control over what a woman does with a pregnancy....I certainly do not. I never said that both parties should not be involved in the discussion......what I said was that, in the end, a woman will do what she wants, IF that's what she decides to do, either after discussion or not. Once that happens.....I'm out of the equation. I'm OK with that....because I know I can't control what other people do with their bodies. BTW - you can take drugs, commit suicide, or prostitute yourself.....go ahead and see if you can't get it done. So if 19 year old LB has a one nighter and accidentally gets a girl preggers and she decides to have the baby and make you pay child support for the next 20+ years, you don't think you should have any say in the matter at all? Her decision is going to have a HUGE impact on the rest of your life, right? I know legally, our laws have to make a distinction and they ultimately give the choice to the prospective mother, but I feel it's overly simplistic to just say it's her body, so she can do what she wants. It might be overly sympliostic, but that's life. You can like it or hate it....but you can't control it. Just for the sake of argument.....what is the flip side to your last statement....."it's her body so she can't do whatever she wants"? Really? |
| 2014-07-18 10:22 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by tuwood Just for the sake of argument.....what is the flip side to your last statement....."it's her body so she can't do whatever she wants"? Really? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain You can deny it all you want but the reality is people do not always make the best choices when it comes to sex. I am not talking about excuses I am talking about what happens in the real world, right, wrong or indifferent! If everyone behaved perfectly all the time there would be no need for laws or contentious discussions. I'm in charge of my mind and body? It's my turn to LMAO! If I am in charge of my own mind and body then why can't I take drugs, commit suicide, prostitute myself or any number of other things without society stepping in to say no? These are all laws predominantly put into place by men. You say you don't want to control women yet you do it every day! Abortion and child bearing both have consequences for both genders and as such it is something that should be dealt with by both genders. It is too complex an issue to just say "my body, my choice"! My choice has consequences that involve other people! It would be supremely arrogant not to mention selfish of my gender to say that men have no place in the discussion about how to proceed. It is more than just the man and the woman here. At some point there is another life to consider. Again you can debate the point at which that occurs but you cannot deny it. We are not simply talking about removing an appendix here! I would agree with you that most of the time it should be a woman's choice but there are boundaries here and both genders need to be involved in looking at those boundaries as both genders are affected by the decisions! And I am not talking abpout paternalistic dictates here I am talking about open and honest discussions and decisions about the issues. I happen to believe that most... well ok, many men.... are capable of just that. I also believe that others of my gender are intelligent and strong enough that we are capable of acknowledging that we are not the only ones who are affected and as such that it needs to be a joint discussion. Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain And yet if a woman choses to take drugs society has a say in the matter even though there is no other life involved. I simply do not see how one can say that a man has a shared responsibility after birth and yet has no say during gestation. That seems rather like taxation without representation to me. It is, of course, not quite that simple but again to say men have no place in the process is ludicrous. As women we cannot have our cake and eat it too which many seem to want. I agree that not being put into the position in the first place is best but reality is, when it comes to sex, "stuff" happens, particularly when alcohol is involved as it often is. I don't think I have all the right answers either because you are correct that both sides have some very salient points! As for dragging you in all I can say is...... "My work here is done!" Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain When you are discussing abortion, at some point, regardless of where you chose to delineate that point, it becomes more than just her responsibility,. It is a shared responsibility and as such should be a shared discussion. There is a third person that must be factored into the equation at some point. Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain Sorry boys but that's the easy way out! Like it or not when it comes to abortion men have a vested interest. It takes two to tang after all and men reap the repercussionist of their actions as much as women. To abdicate that responsibly is to say that she potentially has the power to unilaterally determine a big part of your future. Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain Again man...this is getting really really weird! I've always felt that when it comes to abortion and contraception for women we'd probably all be better served if men stayed out of it. You're gonna need counseling. Where in the world did I abdicate (is that really a word?) my responsibility? Hell, I've got 5 kids. My only point is that men should not get to decide a woman's responsibility....that's for ya'll to take care of....it's your body. That's what I get for sticking up for women.....it's always a losing proposition because half of you can't get on board with the other half. Men don't have that problem......we're just happy to have a few beers and a few intimate minutes of your time.....there is little dissention among us.
There are quite a few people who would disagree with that. My heart says that's right, but my head tells me that I can have my say but I don't really have any control over what a woman choses to do. If a woman chooses to have an abortion that's her choice. I can agree or disagree with it, but that's really all I can do. That's the whole deal with the abortion issue to me......l never get past that point to get to a point where I have to consider whether it's right or wrong, and I've never had to.....I have been responsible when it comes to sex because I don't want to have to consider it..... I have no idea what the right answer is because both sides of the argument make at least some sense to me. I choose not to participate in the discussion. (and yet you drug me in to it anyway) No, stuff doesn't happen, and alcohol is not an excuse. I am responsible. BUT.....I have no say in what a woman chooses to do. I don't control anyone......you are in charge of your own mind and body. C'mon.....be serious.....no man can control whether a woman has an abortion.....nor should we. You want to talk about "cake and eat it to"? Really? LMAO No woman wants to be controlled by any man.....and I'm on that team....so don't try to tell me I have control over what a woman does with a pregnancy....I certainly do not. I never said that both parties should not be involved in the discussion......what I said was that, in the end, a woman will do what she wants, IF that's what she decides to do, either after discussion or not. Once that happens.....I'm out of the equation. I'm OK with that....because I know I can't control what other people do with their bodies. BTW - you can take drugs, commit suicide, or prostitute yourself.....go ahead and see if you can't get it done. So if 19 year old LB has a one nighter and accidentally gets a girl preggers and she decides to have the baby and make you pay child support for the next 20+ years, you don't think you should have any say in the matter at all? Her decision is going to have a HUGE impact on the rest of your life, right? I know legally, our laws have to make a distinction and they ultimately give the choice to the prospective mother, but I feel it's overly simplistic to just say it's her body, so she can do what she wants. Obviously not, just as you cannot legally do what ever you want with your body. Sure you can do whatever you want and find a way to get it done but that is a specious statement in an argument discussing laws about what one can and cannot legally do with one's body. |
| 2014-07-18 10:37 AM in reply to: trinnas |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA When it comes to what a person does with their own body you might as well throw legal and illegal out the window because it makes absolutely no difference. You might not like that reality, but there it is. It's not an argument of any kind.....it's just the truth. You have no control over that. |
| 2014-07-18 10:42 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by Left Brain When it comes to what a person does with their own body you might as well throw legal and illegal out the window because it makes absolutely no difference. You might not like that reality, but there it is. It's not an argument of any kind.....it's just the truth. You have no control over that. No offense but, then why do we waste our time and money on law enforcement, not to mention wasting time and money on debating and passing all those laws? |
| 2014-07-18 10:59 AM in reply to: trinnas |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Hobby Lobby claiming religious freedom and the ACA Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by Left Brain No offense but, then why do we waste our time and money on law enforcement, not to mention wasting time and money on debating and passing all those laws? When it comes to what a person does with their own body you might as well throw legal and illegal out the window because it makes absolutely no difference. You might not like that reality, but there it is. It's not an argument of any kind.....it's just the truth. You have no control over that. That's easy.....to deal with the bad things people do to each other. I suppose you can say that people in prison for drug abuse are there because of what they put into their bodies.....but prison doesn't stop them from doing it. It's pretty pointless to lock them up and pay for their incarceration. And all what laws? How many laws do you thing there are that sanction what you do to yourself?
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