Running speed help (Page 3)

No.  It really doesn't matter at what level those are completed.  The stress does not have to be 'major'.  It can be 'cumulative'.  That's where we are disagreeing.  I realize my example was extreme, but it serves my point (I hope).  Check with the resources you have.

Edit:  I'm also not trying to be snarky in my responses.  I tend to be brief and to the point and only elaborate when asked.  It's my weakness, I know.  I genuinely disagree with some of your statements.  Though not generally with your broader suggestions.

NOTE: Everything I'm saying is geared to triathletes (not pure runners) with a base. 

The magnitude of the stress does matter when that individual is trained. Is that a definitive fact? No, but based on my research and personal experience I do believe that to be true and that belief, in part, guides my training philosophy. A person will only adapt so much and many of those adaptations will occur immediately. People have the remarkable ability to continually adapt but at a certain point, the stimulus has to change to some degree. For endurance sports you go harder, longer, or a mix of the two. "Run often, run easy" is not bad advice but if that is all an individual does then that is all they will be able to do. I give you that a summation effect comes into play for new runners and they should be running more often because 4 short runs are likely > 2 longer runs for those people for a variety of reasons, the biggest is that they can actually complete the 4 runs without feeling like death. Take a trained triathlete though, and replace their short recovery runs for a bike/swim workout (whose intensity takes into account the prior days effort). If they still complete a long run, a tempo, and maybe a medium distance aerobic capacity run, they'll be fine with a prior base and a compensatory intensity increase. This is how  a lot of teammates train currently, it's how I train as well. I know people that like those shorter recovery style workouts.

If this method doesn't work for someone I'll be the first to say, "You should go run more." I want to be clear, I do not find that to be bad advice. Running low volume often works, to point. Once a person reaches that point why not drop that "style" and switch to something better suited to meet goals (being faster)? Is that not what periodization is? 

I purposely only picked out pieces of what you wrote.  there's a lot going on in your post that isn't germane to the point I was arguing with you.  And everything I have been saying is geared to BOTH triathletes and runners (with or without a base).  That is, doing a short, easy run adds stress to your training and drives adaptations.

Of course it does.  In fact, it matters for the untrained individual, as well.  BUT, there is the 'acute' stress of a single workout and the 'cumulative' stress of workouts over time.  BOTH stresses count and easy running has its place in that equation.  It is ADDITIVE to training stress.  It is not there for recovery purposes.  This is the main point I have argued from the start and I still can't tell if you agree or not.  But it's really not that controversial.

So I agree and disagree.  Changing the stimulus is very important for creating new adaptations.  And it is easy to 'stagnate' if one does not.  Many adaptation occur over a relatively short period.  But others occur over years.  If all you did was run 3mi easy every day, eventually you wouldn't see any improvement--although you would likely to see continued fitness gains for several years and your 'easy' pace would gradually decline. Admittedly, this wouldn't be a very efficient training program for someone interested in maximizing their performance and I would certainly recommend mixing frequency, duration and intensity.

Simply by running often and easy, you build the ability to run faster.  This is not exceptionally controversial either and you will find plenty of evidence that it works if you ask around.  But I never suggested that one should avoid running faster at times.  I agree that it is a very good addition to one's training.  The 'stock' advice is to "Run often, mostly easy."

I don't think I'll go pint for point, here -- like JohnnyK, I agree with much of what you say, but certainly disagree about the value (including aerobic value) and importance of easy runs, no less for triathletes.  

Let me just put this thought out there.  For triathletes no less than for pure runners, it is important that one's weekly overall mileage be sufficient to support the long run.  A number commonly thrown out there is that long run should be no more than 33% of total weekly mileage, and 25% would be better (but often not feasible, especially in peak weeks).  I'll suggest that this is one reason (only one reason) that pros (runners and triathletes!) do easy runs.  I'll also suggest that this is one practice in which amateurs should imitate the pros.  Without the easy runs during the week, it is going to be pretty hard to do enough mileage to support a 10-16 mile long run.

Barry P.... learn it, live it, love it. No running background, started Barry P after my first HIM last year and a disaster of a run on a hot day with maybe 15-20 mpw up to then. Been doing nothing but 3,2,1 steady pace since then. Dropped 15 minutes off my 10K time from last year. 45 minutes. I have been doing 30 mpw pretty steady which is plenty for my HIM. I was doing 40 mpw at the end of last year for a run focus and HM only running. I was very suprised I could run 6 days a week and 40 mpw was actually very managable. I have a much bigger base than last year.

I did the same thing as you and asked how to improve... I got the same thread you got. Dedicated, long time, gifted runners telling me to go out and pound out intervals and speed work and puking will get me faster... ya, if I was a dedicated track star. Being an aging trathlete with two other sports to train... volume dropped my times immensly and I have not been injured because of it and I still have the ability to train 2 other sports.

Even Barry P tells you after volume comes speed work and this is how you go about it... but for many speed work will never be necessary for what their goals are. I don't do "speed work" per se, but if I feel like stretching the legs and doing a tempo pace I do. If I feel like pushing my long run, I do. But all those short easy recovery runs rack up the milage and mke it much easier to do. I am not doing 3,2,1 anymore because I went back to a 12 hr rotating shift schedule so it is just not possible to do my 6 days a week anymore and I have to compress my training a lot more. Oh well. The 3,21 worked very well with my other training and I always was ready the next day for more.

And you are also very accurate in your concern for a poor bike slowing down your run. You are right. Being able to run a 8 mm pace in your oly does you no good if you do not have the bike fitness to support that. There was a good thread not too long ago about also inproving your tri run by improving your bike. And there is no point in dropping your run times if you can't take advantage of them because poor bike fitness. They support each other and to gain from those lower run splits you have to have the bike where it is not wearing you out before you get there. I'll see if I can find it and give you a link.

Amen.

Some of the people who are saying, instead, to just increase volume and don't worry about speed work are also dedicated long time, gifted, runners.  BarryP is definitely a solid place to begin thinking about how to train.

As a slow, late-to-life-runner, this is it. 

That is a good point... and thanks for all your help.

As someone with no running background, I found the learning curve a little difficult to weed through on the web. I usually take things as a linnear A-B-C thing. So when I look at how to improve, it is usually sort of easy... but running, well there are 20 year olds and 50 yo giving advice. Competitive racers and recreational joggers. Runners that swim and bike, and cyclists that run and swim. Injury prone people and fast recoverers... they all chime in and their advice is all good, but it needs a lot of context around it to make sense.

So here is the context... Barry P sounded like a very good place to start for this cyclists with no run background that does not heal as fast as I did when I was younger and did not want to add training with chronic injuries to my triathalon story. I did not want to win my local 10K, I wanted to run a competent triathlon race. I got exactly what I wanted. A very good foundation of base miles and lower times... even though I do not do "speed work", I don't run the same pace I used to either. My normal pace before was 10-10.5 m/m where now I am usually doing 9-9.5 and 8.5 is comfortable.

Even for me, if I wanted to improve from here, then the next step would be tempo runs and start adding strides.... after a while of those it would be time for intervals.... hopefully injury free.

If I may suggest:  Strides are wonderful and beneficial and almost entirely risk-free.  You can start them now.  Stay loose and relaxed and don't think of it as 'speed work'.  Just open the tap a bit for 30s or so several times during an otherwise easy run.  

OK. I'm good with that. Is that all there is to it? My HIM is in two weeks so I will be tapering next week (easy runs), but I have 6 weeks until the next one so I have plenty of time to add these in for some improved turnover.... which I assume is the point?

Yes.  We could talk about whether they are done at 3K pace or 5K pace or whatever, but these issues are minutiae.  Just go 'comfortably hard'.  Focus on relaxed quick turnover and good extension (out the back) in your stride.  The main point is that you get significant neuro-muscular gains from these short bursts of speed.  And it is perfectly OK to do them leading up to a race.  During your taper for the HIM, try doing just 3 or 4 30s strides during a couple of runs.  Leading up to your next one, maybe try it 3x/week (assuming no other speed work).  You can build to as much as 10x30s a few times a week.  Just see how it feels and adjust accordingly.