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2008-07-08 8:20 AM
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Giver
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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres
jacasa - 2008-07-08 9:01 AM
run4yrlif - 2008-07-07 5:46 PM

Also, ask yourself this: why would she unretire yet again just to cheat? She has a stellar reputation...tons of medals over 4 previous Olympics. She also had plenty of money. So, why risk it?

More $$$$$$. Bonds and Clemens had enough. Plus, the need for the spotlight. Again, I am not saying she has done anything and I think it is a great story, but if it does come out that she is not clean unfortunately I would not be surprised.

I think the fact that she's storing blood samples for future testing says a lot.

Here's the thing: there's no way she can escape the spectre of cheating, so she's doing everything in her power to mitigate it. What more can you ask of her? Her alternative is to either not attempt a comeback, or just to suck. She chose the alternate path of getting back into the game and excelling.  And for that, and only that, people are skeptical.

It's unfortunate, but understandable I guess.



2008-07-08 8:47 AM
in reply to: #1513841

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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres
It is unfortunate, but also the reality of the times. I don't feel sorry for Clemens or Bonds, because baseball looked the other way when it was painfully obvious players were using PED's. Not one player the stature of Clemens or Bonds spoke out against PED's, so when those types of players get caught up in suspicion, I just consider it reaping what they have sowed.

If Landis or Armstrong is actually clean, then I feel sorry for them. Their sport has rigorous testing, but people are still able to cheat. If someone has competed against a user and won, they deserve our praise, not suspicion.
2008-07-08 8:54 AM
in reply to: #1513927

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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres

eberulf - 2008-07-08 9:47 AM If Landis or Armstrong is actually clean, then I feel sorry for them. Their sport has rigorous testing, but people are still able to cheat. If someone has competed against a user and won, they deserve our praise, not suspicion.

The problem is it seems like the testing is currently carried out by labs which border on incompetent, under the guidance of cycling's governing bodies who do not seem to really have the best interest of the athletes as a priority.  I trust the labs and governing body of the sport as much as I trust the athletes...maybe less.

2008-07-08 8:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres
eberulf - 2008-07-08 9:47 AM

Not one player the stature of Clemens or Bonds spoke out against PED's, so when those types of players get caught up in suspicion, I just consider it reaping what they have sowed.



That's not quite true. Canseco was always pretty open about it and at the time he was in their class of player. He was a future hall of famer. I remember sitting in the right field bleachers at Fenway and he'd have 100 people chanting steroids... sterrrrrrrrrroids at him. He'd turn around, flex his arm, and yell "you'd do it too for my paycheck" or something similar. Hell the guy was practically running juicing seminars for other players - that's not something a discrete user does. Sure he wasn't speaking out against them but that's because he still won't do that. The guy believes, like a lot of people do, that with proper medical supervision they can be used safely.

The whole concept of "no one ever said anything at the time" just isn't true. The players knew, baseball knew, the fans knew, and the vast majority of everyone just didn't care. The only reason it matters now is because the media and congress turned it into a witch hunt.
2008-07-08 9:08 AM
in reply to: #1509416

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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres

The linked articles speaks quite a bit to what Torres has done/is doing to be where she is...to most people who are just reading/hearing about her, yes, it's very easy to presume she's doping.  To anybody who's been following her "comeback" since the birth of her child, being there sans doping makes a bit more sense... 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/01/AR2007080102538.html

2008-07-08 9:24 AM
in reply to: #1513841

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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres

The real tragedy of doping is that those who are truly guilty cast a shadow of suspicion on everyone else, especially someone like Torres who is able to perform at a very high standard at an (relatively) older age.

I think it's sad that she has to go to such extremes to try to demonstrate that she's clean.  She's now dropped out of the 100M to focus on the 50M, a concession to longer recovery times at her age.  If she was doping why would she have to do that?

I also can't figure how doping would have much of a benefit for an event that lasts for less than 30 seconds.  As others have mentioned, her technique is near perfection - I would put that up as the primary reason for her success. 

Those who are accusing Torres remind me of all those who accused LA of doping, even though he never failed a drug test either.  Could it be that some individuals just got a lucky draw from the gene pool, plus worked hard to take advantage of their talent?

There's lot of other professional sports where exceptional athletes have been able to perform well into their 40's and even 50's and 60's.  Did anyone accuse Jack Nicklaus of doping when he won the Masters at age 46?  What about Jimmy Connors when he made it to the US Open semi's at 39?   

When I was still bodybuilding, I did my PR in the bench press at 45, even though I had been lifting since I was 18.  The only doping I did was on beer and red wine. 

I'd much rather celebrate Torres' success, than criticize her character unjustly.

Mark  

 

 

 

 



2008-07-08 9:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres

Did he just really mention a golfer in a steroid conversation?
2008-07-08 9:28 AM
in reply to: #1514067

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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres
RedCorvette - 2008-07-08 10:24 AM

I also can't figure how doping would have much of a benefit for an event that lasts for less than 30 seconds.  

To be fair, steroids and HGH clearly help power sports/events. Just ask Marion Jones and every 100m sprinter who's ever been caught.

2008-07-08 10:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres
run4yrlif - 2008-07-08 10:28 AM
RedCorvette - 2008-07-08 10:24 AM

I also can't figure how doping would have much of a benefit for an event that lasts for less than 30 seconds.  

To be fair, steroids and HGH clearly help power sports/events. Just ask Marion Jones and every 100m sprinter who's ever been caught.

I'd argue that swimming is still more of a technique sport that depends primarily on core strength.   I sure don't see the bulky shoulders and back on Torres that you used to see on the former eastern block women swimmers that doped.

Mark

2008-07-08 10:19 AM
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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres
RedCorvette - 2008-07-08 11:08 AM

I'd argue that swimming is still more of a technique sport that depends primarily on core strength. I sure don't see the bulky shoulders and back on Torres that you used to see on the former eastern block women swimmers that doped.

Mark




Notice that these swimmers are faster than those east german women. Things change.
2008-07-08 10:20 AM
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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres

chadtower - 2008-07-08 10:27 AM Did he just really mention a golfer in a steroid conversation?

Yep, golf.  There have been increasing rumors floating around the PGA tour about 'roid use, particularly since Tiger Woods has been so successful with his strength training regimen.  The obvious exception being John Daley who seems to train primarily on beer and Hooter's wings.    

Mark



2008-07-08 10:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres
RedCorvette - 2008-07-08 11:20 AM

The obvious exception being everyone but Tiger Woods since they seem to train primarily on beer and Hooter's wings.

Mark




fixt



Edited by chadtower 2008-07-08 10:47 AM
2008-07-08 11:32 AM
in reply to: #1514221

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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres
RedCorvette - 2008-07-08 11:08 AM
run4yrlif - 2008-07-08 10:28 AM
RedCorvette - 2008-07-08 10:24 AM

I also can't figure how doping would have much of a benefit for an event that lasts for less than 30 seconds.  

To be fair, steroids and HGH clearly help power sports/events. Just ask Marion Jones and every 100m sprinter who's ever been caught.

I'd argue that swimming is still more of a technique sport that depends primarily on core strength.   I sure don't see the bulky shoulders and back on Torres that you used to see on the former eastern block women swimmers that doped.

Mark

It's more of a technique sport, sure. But once your technique's as good as it can be, it's all about force applied to the paddles...

 

2008-07-08 11:34 AM
in reply to: #1509416

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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres

In swimming I would bet the HGH would be a lot more about 02 capacity and lactic acid maintenance than about strength. Pure steroids probably wouldn't be the right way to go but HGH combined with the same type of doping a cyclist would use would be a huge advantage.
2008-07-08 12:33 PM
in reply to: #1514268

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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres
chadtower - 2008-07-08 10:19 AM

RedCorvette - 2008-07-08 11:08 AM

I'd argue that swimming is still more of a technique sport that depends primarily on core strength. I sure don't see the bulky shoulders and back on Torres that you used to see on the former eastern block women swimmers that doped.

Mark




Notice that these swimmers are faster than those east german women. Things change.


also notice the change in swimsuits. no one has mentioned how the technology has changed immensely. men went from wearing skimpy speedo's to full on body suits. women too. there's something to be said for the hi-tech fastskin's that everyone is wearing having an impact on times and breaking records.
2008-07-08 12:57 PM
in reply to: #1514694

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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres
shrano - 2008-07-08 1:33 PM
chadtower - 2008-07-08 10:19 AM
RedCorvette - 2008-07-08 11:08 AM I'd argue that swimming is still more of a technique sport that depends primarily on core strength. I sure don't see the bulky shoulders and back on Torres that you used to see on the former eastern block women swimmers that doped.

 

Mark

Notice that these swimmers are faster than those east german women. Things change.
also notice the change in swimsuits. no one has mentioned how the technology has changed immensely. men went from wearing skimpy speedo's to full on body suits. women too. there's something to be said for the hi-tech fastskin's that everyone is wearing having an impact on times and breaking records.

That's obviously my problem - my low-tech TYR jammers are definitely slowing me down in the pool.   Not sure they make those new suits in my size though...

Mark



2008-07-08 1:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres
RedCorvette - 2008-07-08 10:24 AM

Those who are accusing Torres remind me of all those who accused LA of doping, even though he never failed a drug test either. Could it be that some individuals just got a lucky draw from the gene pool, plus worked hard to take advantage of their talent?

Now that's just crazy talk!  ;-p

2008-07-08 1:36 PM
in reply to: #1513964

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Subject: RE: Right on Dara Torres
chadtower - 2008-07-08 8:55 AM

eberulf - 2008-07-08 9:47 AM

Not one player the stature of Clemens or Bonds spoke out against PED's, so when those types of players get caught up in suspicion, I just consider it reaping what they have sowed.



That's not quite true. Canseco was always pretty open about it and at the time he was in their class of player. He was a future hall of famer. I remember sitting in the right field bleachers at Fenway and he'd have 100 people chanting steroids... sterrrrrrrrrroids at him. He'd turn around, flex his arm, and yell "you'd do it too for my paycheck" or something similar. Hell the guy was practically running juicing seminars for other players - that's not something a discrete user does. Sure he wasn't speaking out against them but that's because he still won't do that. The guy believes, like a lot of people do, that with proper medical supervision they can be used safely.

The whole concept of "no one ever said anything at the time" just isn't true. The players knew, baseball knew, the fans knew, and the vast majority of everyone just didn't care. The only reason it matters now is because the media and congress turned it into a witch hunt.


That's a strange response. You say it is not quite true, and then emphasize that Canseco did not speak out against them.
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