Question on the tri-bike and hill philosophy

I have a road bike and a tri bike. I hardly ever ride the road bike anymore. I live in a valley so no matter where I go I have to deal with hills. When you are out of the saddle climbing the position is the same on either bike and I do not notice any difference. When seated the tri bike has the seat a little forward of the pedals. When on hills you may or may not stay in the aero bars, but I think you can find a position you are comfortable with. If you want to do long course triathlons (HIM and IM) get a tri bike. If you are going to road ride with an occasional Oly or sprint tri get a road bike. Whichever you chose have a blast.

Kevin  

Here's a good article that explains the differences in the frame geometry.

There are times I wish I had a RB with aero bars for longer rides and such.  I don't live where it is very hilly and when I do ride the hills of central FL the TB never bothers me but I don't have a RB to compare it to.

There's nothing wrong with climbing on a tri bike.  If it is outfitted to be an ideal TT machine on the flats, then it won't be the ideal combing machine, but it will still be fine.  Even more than flat TTs, climbing is about the engine, not the machine, IMO.  (Unlike drag racing, these are two different things in cycling!)

Here's something I wrote recently about my experience concerning this issue. Where I live is about as hilly as an area can get so it's important to me.

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What follows is my opinion of the differences of a TT bike (TTB= 2007 Trek TTX 9.9 Dura Ace) compared to a road bike (RB= 2007 Trek Madone 5.9 SL Dura Ace) after tens of thousands of miles on road bikes (always with clip-on aero bars but with standard road geometry and fit), compared to the early stages of trying to adjust to my TTB for a race in two weeks. These are high-end matching bikes that are both very well fitted to me. I really haven't read many opinion of others nor do I have any other motivations (I like both bikes a lot). So I think this is a relatively unbiased opinion.

My other two other races that I ridden the TTB, I did not train much at all on it (just a couple test rides to check fit, gearing, etc). In the first race, I felt terrible and weak with all kinds of fatique in weird places. In the second race, I rode a relatively fast split but crashed badly (over the handlebars) as I slowed to enter T2.

First off I want to say that the TTB is great on flat, smooth, and straight courses while riding on the aerobars. This is obviously what the bike is designed to do and it does it very well. So all the points below apply to riding the bike in circumstances for which it was not designed to be optimal. My intent is not to criticize TTBs but instead to just give my opinion of some of it's weaknesses in terms of using a TTB as one's primary ride for routes that do not match it's design intent very well.

1. Forward weight on my TTB makes the steering very twitchy compared to my RB. Tiny turns on the bars makes the TTB turn much more than my RB. This makes it much more difficult for me to hold a line when looking back, drinking, getting stuff out of pockets, not paying close attention, etc. Since I usually ride smooth bike paths on a very tight line at the very far right, this has caused me to almost ride off the edge of the road multiple times including once in a race.

2. Stiffness. Little bumps on the road are far more jarring on the TTB. Literally, on my last ride I saw stars when I hit a bump while riding on the tri bars. On my RB, I barely notice hitting the same bump on the clip-on aerobars.

3. Brake placement. On my RB, I don't have to worry about bumpy curves because when I'm on the hoods, the brakes are right there at my finger tips. Hitting a bump does not result in the brakes being engaged. On my TTB on the bullhorns, unless I make sure that my fingers are wrapped around the bars ONLY, a bump causes me to engage the brakes to some degree. This makes a bumpy, curved, descent far more difficult and dangerous because I have to brake between bumps to get my speed right as I enter the curve. I can certainly err on the slow side which alleiviates the issue by that's not my nature. I'm always trying to go faster on my technical descents entering curves just a tiny bit faster than previous rides. I must make sure that my fingers are off the brakes as I hit bumps. It seems minor but my descents are fast with lots of curves. They repair the asphalt after each winter which results in bumps in the otherwise perfectly smooth surface. Having to make all these hand position/braking decisions on fast descents with other riders around is difficult especially considering the post climb fatigue in the early parts of a descent. Plus, the consequences of a mistake are very serious which adds to the difficulty. On my RB I have none of issues and the descent is much more fun and safe.

4. On the bullhorns of my TTB, I must grip the bars much harder than on the hoods of my RB. On my RB I can have a very light and relaxed grip because of the flange that extends above the brake levers which supports the area between my thumb and forefinger. Even with a very relaxed grip, hitting a bump there's very little chance of losing the bars and going down like Jens Voigt in stage 16 of the 2009 TdF. On the TTB, there is no flange so I have to grip the bullhorn bars very tightly or I could easily loose grip of them.

3. Gears/brakes. I'm right handed and can't do much with my left hand on a bike (which I'm trying to change). So when I'm on the bullhorns of the TTB and I want to shift gears, I use my right hand. That leaves my left hand on the bullhorns. If I'm not very careful to make sure my fingers are off the brake lever and I hit a bump, my front brake only will engage and I could easily go down over the handlebars. This is why I crashed in my last race.

4. Climbing. I can tell that the bike is heavier but that's a minor issue that I think will resolve as I get used to the bike. The twitchy aspect of the steering requires more attention when climbing especially out-of-the-saddle. This makes it harder to just get into a mindless rythm.

5. Descending. This is where the bike is a bit scary for me. On very steep descents, the aggressive position puts my face uncomfortably low to the road compared to my RB. I leave my house on a fast 400 foot 10% descent. On my RB I get into the mid-40 mphs only braking to make sure a car isn't approaching on a cross street which could run a stop sign and kill me. But on my first TTB ride after my race crash, the bike felt so bad on that descent I couldn't even get it up to 30 mph because of the twitchy steering, stiff reaction to bumps, and my position being so far front and low. Since my previous ride on the bike was a crash, I had to pull over to make sure it was all good. Unless the descent is very straight where I can get on the aerobars, the issues with the brakes and grip on the bullhorns is a major one for me. On my RB, I can be mostly just concerned with the speed at which I enter curves and so the process doesn't require much thought. But on the TTB it takes much more thought.

Again, I'm early in my adjustment stage so I expect some of the issues to resolve. My plan is to ride my RB as much as possible (for enjoyment reasons) and switching to the TTB for training two weeks before races where I'll be riding the TTB. I'll also be training on the TTB all winter on a Computrainer.

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I used a power meter for a long time on my road bike and now have one on my tri bike. I've definitely learned that my max power in the aero position is quite a bit lower than my road bike--has a lot to do with position/geometry/etc. and with saving the legs for the run. The good news is that the aerodynamic advantage offsets it quite a bit, so I'm faster than many riders on road/hybrid bikes who are working a lot harder. Tri bike gearing and the decreased rolling resistance of the smaller tires figure in too.

If I encounter a hill of any real size, i.e. I drop below 16-17mph or so , I get into the bullhorns again, because my power shoots up quite a bit, and at lower speed the aerodynamics don't figure in as strongly.

smaller tires.........?

^^^ You know, the high-pressure 21's and 23's vs. the semi-knobby low pressure 35's on the average hybrid.

hahaha sorry i thought you meant from a tri to road bike, was confused!

Yeah, sorry--probably wasn't as clear as I should've been.

I hear the problems brought up by Breckview - those are all definitely legit and real issues when your compare the TT bike to a standard road bike.

But honestly, if you train a bunch on a TT bike, you won't really notice any of those problems in the long run. I only train on a TT bike (no road bike), and I can tell you that I have absolute confidence bombing downhills at 50 mph+ faster than almost all nonaerobikes around me, climbing 15-20% (yes, 20%!) steep inclines, taking fast curvy descents with control, and being comfortable. I ride mostly windy mountain roads with tons of climbing and blind corners which is wayyy more technically challenging than virtually any triathlon course out there, and I can easily keep up with competitive pure roadies on their roadbikes despite the climbing and the curvy descents.

For sure, the TT bike isn't a factor holding me back. Not one bit. Once you get used to it, it'll feel natural. The only reason I'd get a road bike now is just to make pure roadies more comfortable when I join their group ride - they're understandably reluctant to let anyone with aerobars near the group even if you stay off them. 
 

aside from when i can gank my g/f's road bike, i do all of my training on a tri bike, and frankly, its not as fast for me going up, but i have no issues with it at all.

breckview is pretty well dead-on in his analysis of RB vs TTBs.  No question properly fit RB climbs & handles better than TTB.  Not just my opinion, but that of world's best pro cyclists.  For example in this year's Giro, the technical difficulty of the Stage 12 TT made most pro riders (inc. LA) abandon their TT bikes in favor of RB (+/- clip-on aerobars).
http://www.velonews.com/article/92271/menchov-wins-stage-12-time-trial-at-cinque-terre-and-takes

Scan through Stage photos- inc.
http://www.velonews.com/photo/92279
http://www.velonews.com/photo/92280

I have both road and tri bike and ride 4-4.5 K miles a year.

I have no problems on climbing hills on my tri bike. My tri bike is more slack than many so that may play in here....

Gear choice relative to your strength as a cyclist is key for hill climbing.

If I could only buy one bike or have one bike I'd get a tri bike no question about it.

Most tri bikes come with a 12-23 rear cassette. When I switched the original one for a 12-27, it was like a new machine. It climbs like a goat now. Perhaps not as fast uphill as a good road bike, but plenty fast overall.

Until last year I did all my riding on a tri bike, 5K miles a year, plenty of climbing.   Last year I bought a road bike.   Without a doubt, the relaxed geometry makes climbing easier and improves handling, especiall y descending (not to say you cant climb and/or descend in control, it's just the roadie handles better).  Not to say you can't climb a lot on a tri bike.   The common wisdom for climbing on a bike is to scoot your butt back to the edge of the seat, to utilize more of yourleg muscles.  You can do this on a tri bike, but you can get further back on a roadie.

But frankly, having the right cassette for your terrain probably makes more of a difference in ability to climb than frame geometry

If you're really doing a lot of hills, get a compact crankset. I know it's not the standard Tri answer, but a 50/34 or 50/36 with an 11-23 cassette will give you all the high end with a little extra wall-climbing ability at the low end. I use that setup on my road bike and a 50x11 is actually a higher gear than a 53x12... the advantage to the compact setup is that you can keep tighter spacing on the cassette than with a 12-27.


Edited by DrPete 2009-08-02 8:39 PM

I think it's a matter of preference.

I have a tri bike and I don't enjoy riding it on hills. I find it easier to shift up/down on my roadie... as I don't like being in the areo position having to pedal up a hill. That's just me. I also ride the brakes when I'm going downhill. So, I won't ride in areo going down.

Plenty of triathletes ride tri bikes on hills and don't mind it a bit.

Yeah, my tri bike has a compact DA 50/34 front, and a 11-28 cassette.  Great climbing in the 34-28 combo, and great top end in the 50-11 combo.  I completed the Auburn half, billed as the worlds toughest half (6000') of climbing on it, with no problems, and just yesterday completed the Vineman full iron on it (some climbing but not a ton)

get a good gear combo, and a tri bike climbs hills quite well.

That is a great point and I'm updating my document.

My problem with my TT bike on hills was really just descending. I ride the same hills every day so this issue hasn't really come up for me in training. But on long climbs with which I'm unfamiliar I'm not always able to predict exactly which gears I'll be riding when out-of-the-saddle.

With a road bike you can shift perfectly and easily w/Dura Ace out-of-the-saddle front and back by just taking a little pressure of the pedals for a moment during the shift and I do it constantly. I've only ridden hills seriously on Dura Ace so I don't know about other components. But I do know I'd have a lot of trouble doing that on my TT bike and so I'd probably just ride a non-optimal gear which I do not like doing.