Lazy is as lazy does

I take it easy for about 90% of the swim and push it for 10%.

Of course I'm a beginner, so I really just focus on my form.  This seems to work well as people who have critiqued me said my stroke is almost flawless!  Once I feel I'm there then I plan to work on speed.

I don't disagree with you, as a matter of fact I 100% agree with you.  But I was also using that as the excuse for why I wasn't going faster.  All I am really talking about is a faster turnover rate cause I am now pushing my arms through the water with more effort instead of just letting my body kind of catch up to my push (if that makes any sense).  Had I kept that up I would have never gotten to where I want to get to even with perfect technique. 

As an aside, I consider myself a beginner.  I started swimming 6 months ago in prep for my first tri.  I got tired of doing the du's and watching all the swimming:-)

While swimming, I say to myself in my mind's voice "long and strong, long and strong"

I find it helps me to make sure each hand entering the water is extending out, stretching myself, trying too become as small as possible cutting through the water, timewise it extends my glide so less strokes, then when I pull I'm trying to pull strong all the way to my leg, rotating my body on/over my pull arm vs pulling my arm thru the water

When I'm doing this, I find it keeps me in good form/technique but also I am swimming fast most of my sets

If I just try to swim fast, I think that my turnover is way too high and I'm basically thrashing my way through the water, form breaks down, too much energy is used, and timewise - probably barely faster if at all. 

I say that too... not  just while swimming.

I don't get that.  Can you explain more?  It seems like your saying you pull strong (which is all I am saying I changed today) but then you say vs pulling your arm?  Or are you just saying you ensure you finish your stroke?   So you are starting your turn as you do the pull?  I might be waiting to late then as I am near done my pull, if not already done.  I know my front arm starts to drop and I am trying to figure out how to keep that glide.  It's been frustratiing me and I know it is related to my rotation (or at least I think it is). 

I time my laps by default since I use my lap counter on my watch to count laps so I know I dropped 10+ seconds per 100 off my lap time when I was pushing it.

Doesn't anyone do intervals where you have your nice easy warmup laps, then you do your sets where your pushing it, then you have your cool down laps?  So, what is the change from the easy warmup laps to the ones where your pushing it?  Being a beginner I guess I am just not getting it but so far everyone seems to think that I shouldn't be pushing myself.  I have a feeling I am not explaining myself well.

After my hand has entered the water and I've extended it (visualize reaching for something high up on a shelf you have to kind of turn your body with the arm that's extended), then comes the glide, and then when I start to pull I first bend at the wrist to grab as much water I can with my hand, then bend at the elbow to use from my fingertips to my elbow for the pull, then when I start to pull I am visualizing that my arm is stationary and I'm pulling myself with my lats OVER (I'm not directly over my arm, picture laying on a barrel and paddling, your arm is slightly off to the side) my stationary arm until my hand's thumb hits my quads.  In reality, to a person watching me, it may look no different than if I were to be focused on pulling my arm thru the water to the same finish, but for me by focusing the way I do it helps keep my body in line and rotating smoothly.  Not sure if that makes more sense or not, let me know !

Here's my most recent workout:
4x50, rest :20, easy - - this is my warmup, just loosening up
4x: 1x50 breath left -----
      1x50 breath right --- this is still kinda warmup, but I'm now working on putting the process together formwise
4x50, target :44, rest :15   ------work set
4x100, target 1:30, rest :20 -----work set
1x200, target 3:20, rest :30 -----work set
4x50, target :44, rest :15  ----work set
2x200 w/pullbuoy  -----cool down


Edited by Mainer22 2009-08-20 10:12 AM

thanks, just spilled my coffee while laughing!

whether lazy or not, I dont know. In my long distance pieces I usually try to hit a steady pace and maintain it exactly from first stroke to last. I found in working on this that when I relax in the water and focus on a nice long stroke and a low stroke count that I am actually much faster than at other times. So to that I add in sprint work where I use extra kick energy and pull with more strength and I will go slightly faster still but for the most part when my stroke feels the laziest is when I am fastest and most efficiant for my long swims.

One of the things I see with beginners, is when they try to swim "faster", they end up kind of windmilling their arms, because their elbow drops underwater and they end their pull short in an effort to increase their arm tempo.

You want to picture kind of "anchoring" your hand in one spot, and then "pulling" yourself over that spot. Ideally, your hand will exit the water at the same place it entered, or even a bit farther than that down the pool. If you look down at your stroke, and your elbow is leading the way, you're doing it wrong.

If you ever watch someone get out of the pool by pushing off the bottom and doing a straight arm "press up" on the edge, that is very similar to the kind of pull you want to mimic in your stroke.

John

For sure, I went through the windmill phase.  I had a coach get me out of that one doing a catch up drill where I could not start my catch until my other arm came back around and touched the other hand.  That forced slow down really worked for me. 

I am still a bit amazed that no one appears to agree that sometimes you have to swim harder to swim faster.  I am not windmilling, I am not lifting my head, I do have a somewhat bad extention/roll, but it is not horrible and getting better.  But, I spent the first 6 months working on distance.  I have my distance now (well, enough for my next sprint) so now I am working on speed, and I stand by that only so much can come from form.  Do I think you can push as hard as you want and with horrible form just make yourself tired and not faster?  Yup, got that.  But, I also think that along with form you have to have some soft of push to get faster.  Otherwise how do you get faster?  I changed one thing today.  I did not loligag through the water.  I put more effort into it. 

Swimming "Hard"m can cause cavitation which disrupts the water in front of you as well.
Reynolds numbers prove that a canoe goes faster through the water that a punt because it disturbs the water less. the aerodynamic shape gives the least resitance

You have explained yourself fine. I think people are mistakenly thinking that 'pushing yourself' entails you begin flailing and sacrifice technique, drop your elbows, lose your streamline, make big splashes, etc..  That doesn't have to happen when you increase your effort. Speed is a combination of form (technique) and effort. If you just do a relaxed swim with perfect form and very little perceived exertion on your part, that is OK, but you won't place in a race. To do well you want to use good form but also put some power into your stroke: you want to push yourself!

In swim, just as in the other sports, there is a 'rating of perceived exertion' (RPE) scale, and in my main workout (after warming up and doing simple drills) I push myself to go faster than I plan to go in the race (while maintaining good form of course). This is standard workout technique, to stress the body so it has to adapt and you improve. I increase my RPE during my main workout set (unless I'm just doing a relaxing workout or going for distance).

You have unearthed a common problem with triathlon swimmers: the desire to do a lazy comfortable swim with perfect form and slow speed. This has usually been me, and I just cut my 750m swim from 18:37 to 14:59 by focusing on putting some power into my stroke in addition to the form. (Obviously I am not elite swimmer, but for me that was a huge improvement).

I think there is a myth, perhaps perpetuated by (misinterpretations of?) the 'total immersion' stuff, that a good swim should not feel like a lot of effort. Bologna! When I am swimming fast, I know it, I feel it. It isn't a leisurely paced recreational swim, but a race, baby! I'm pushing it. Of course I maintain good form, but good form and power/speed are complementary, not in opposition.

At the start of the powerstroke class with Marty Gaal he spent a lot of time humorously criticizing those who treat the swim portion of a tri as a relaxed leisurely thing. I found it hilarious because it was like he was talking about me. Do you think the people finishing in the top three are having a relaxing leisurely swim? Heck no: They are pushing it.

Edited by neuronet 2009-08-20 3:03 PM

Ah, I think I see. Yes, I agree you definitely need to be WORKING harder, and swimming at higher speed to get faster. My main concern was that you weren't losing form in the effort to swim faster.

Swimming is one of those weird sports where the more relaxed you are, the faster you can go. The more you try to "muscle" it, the more you will wallow around. By all means work harder, just stay relaxed while you do it. :D

John

John I agree fully with both of your responses in this thread.  The "anchoring in one place" is what I was fumbling with trying to explain earlier and in regards to level of effort, my interval sets of 50's,100's, 200's I couldn't hold those paces for much further (yet), but those are the paces I can complete while still maintaining good form.  As I get stronger and faster, my times will adjust down so that I'm pushing myself.  Rarely am I simply just swimming with no regard for time or distance or whatnot.

1km warm up
2km main sets (technique, gear etc)
1km speed sets 

Good. Drop me a PM, or search through some of my older posts for the words "Threshold" and "Interval", I have a standard explanation of what each is and how to use them in a swimming program to increase speed. ;)

NM, I found it: (Just too lazy to type :D)



Slight explanation - For threshold sets, rest should be between 10-20 seconds. Interval sets, rest should be about the same time as the distance, so if you swim 100 in 1:45, you should rest 1:45, so that you can make every interval. If you can't make every interval, either your fitness way sucks or you're swimming too fast. ;)


John

Edited by tkd.teacher 2009-08-20 4:50 PM

So I read this thread and then headed out for my swim.  Found myself saying "long and strong...long and strong" the whole time.    While it drove me nuts, my workout felt really good.