General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Trying to understand.... Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 2
 
 
2011-11-22 1:26 PM


153
1002525
Subject: Trying to understand....

Would love some opinions from experienced IM'ers.  I had a DNF at IMAZ, and am still trying to process.  Trying to figure out what I need to do differently.

I am 5"5", 115# on race day. All my OW swim practices at IM distance were around 1hr40min, so thought I was in good shape.  The water was 61 degrees race morning, I had booties, a neoprene hoodie, and earplugs.  I ate my usual bagel with peanut butter/jelly with tea and a bottle of water/Nuun at 4am, then had a gel pack and bottle of water at transition.  I definitely struggled a little with the ccccold, but was able to keep moving.

My swim time was 2:06!!!  Horrible for me, and I was really hypothermic.  They pulled me through Medical and had me sit in a warm tub for a few minutes.  I had a gel pack and water in my T1 bag, but my gut wouldn't let me take the gel.  I just figured let me get out on the course and settle in, I'll start on my nutrition.

Never got a chance.  Started to feel really weird (should have stopped in hindsight but my head was foggy).  Mile 15 I went out cold and crashed.  Managed to come around, eat a little, and get going again....but I wasn't right the rest of the ride.  Felt foggy and was never really clear on mileage or time.  I completed 2 full loops before missing the 3pm cutoff by 2 minutes.  Only then did I take my helmet off, the headache was immediate.  My helmet had 4 breaks and a gouge missing.

Lots of road rash, stitches, and a concussion.  I'll live.  But I need to figure out if it was the hypothermia,  or the nutrition, or both???  Any thoughts???   Am I too small for cold water swims at that distance (that's what friends are saying)?  Should I have forced that gel in T1??  Was getting in that warm tub a mistake physiologically?

There may be no right answer.  Just please understand that I did everything to the letter in training, and was ready on race day (I thought).  I am frustrated with the result.  Does anyone have thoughts about good warm water IM's???  Either in the US or elsewhere?  Thanks for your thoughts......



2011-11-22 1:39 PM
in reply to: #3911918

User image

Champion
10471
500050001001001001002525
Dallas, TX
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....
WOW. So sorry to hear what happened. You are such a trooper to keep going even after you crashed. Although, I wouldn't encourage anyone to make unsafe choices... with a concussion, it might have been best to stop. But you didn't know.

This is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing. Not that I'm an "all knowing expert"... I've just read a lot of race reports here on BT... posts, etc. And never once have I heard of such a thing.

I'm not sure you are too small for cold water. I have a client who lives in Lake Placid and she's pretty tiny... and swims in cold water just fine. But I also wonder if some people are just built for colder water.

I know I can't tolerate cold water. I makes my ears ring. It's just painful for me. I am 5'4" and 125 lbs. So a bit bigger, but the ears hurting, my frozen head, feet and hands make the experience completely miserable. This is why I don't do cold water races. I will say that Ironman Kentucky has really nice, warm water.

I'll be interested to see if someone can chime in with a possible answer on this one.

Again, sorry to hear about your DNF. You gave it your all though!
2011-11-22 2:54 PM
in reply to: #3911918

User image

Elite
3060
200010002525
N Carolina
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

I can't give you any answers about what happened at IMAZ but I will say that I LOVED EVERYTHING about IM Louisville!!!  We did have good weather this year.  I didn't think the river was as bad as many race reports suggest.  The bike has rolling hills, but nothing too bad, but if you can train in hills that will help.  The run is flat Smile but some will say boring (not me, I didn't care). And the finish line is AMAZING!!  I will be going back.

ETA:  Sorry about IMAZ but Good Luck in the future!!!!



Edited by japarker24 2011-11-22 2:55 PM
2011-11-22 2:56 PM
in reply to: #3911918

User image

Master
2404
2000100100100100
Redlands, CA
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....
Water seems to affect everyone different, according to my father in law a few people just got out of the water it was so cold, so you were not alone. The booties definately cost some time, I don't know how much but it does add drag which keeps you in the water longer. Being out there for 2 hours you are more susceptible to hypothermia than the faster swimmers, I'd wager if everyone had to stay in that long at least 20% would have the same problem. The only solution is do a warmer swim or get faster, preferably both.I had a bad swim as well, and chalked it up to a sore arm and lackadaisical sighting and form. If you were like me, you may have forgot how to swim during the race and got caught up on other things.The good thing is you have the right attitude, and want to get back on the horse. I'd suggest Texas or Louisville for your next, and avoid CdA an SG. I was in your spot last year after I didn't finish IMSG, and its hard to explain to others how much it hurts not to finish. Keep with it and register for another, and get that dnf monkey off your back!
2011-11-22 3:02 PM
in reply to: #3911918

Subject: ...
This user's post has been ignored.
2011-11-22 3:03 PM
in reply to: #3911918

Expert
1258
10001001002525
Marin County, California
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....
X2 on the idea of not 'being too small,' I'm right at your size and I swim long distance in 50 degree water(without booties) year round and sometimes I do it without a wetsuit.

As above, I'm no expert but it may be you got really hypothermic. 2+ hours is a long time to be in the water especially if you are not adjusted to the cold.

Your experience is pretty much the same as in 2010 when a friend of mine was captain of the womens T1 tent at IMSG(water temp was low 50's.) She said almost all of the folks coming out of the water after 2 hours were extremely hypothermic, they were warming them up with warm water and mylar blankets, they encouraged these folks to NOT proceed(because many of them were incapable of standing) and those that insisted on leaving T1 on thier bike more often than not went weaving down the road and crashed because the shaking from hypothermia can get really violent.

Again, I'm no expert but it sounds like a cold issue. And nothing at all with that gel.

Edited by LittleCat 2011-11-22 3:24 PM


2011-11-22 7:36 PM
in reply to: #3911918

Extreme Veteran
508
500
Fleming Island, FL
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....
Sorry to hear about your bad experience at IMAZ. You did not mention whether or not you wore a wetsuit so if you didn't, I would suggest you wear one and if you did, were you in the water a long time before the race started? I remember doing B2B in 2009 with the cold water start and it took 3 hours on the bike before I could feel my toes. I wore a full wetsuit and the race swim cap, but did not have any booties so other than my feet I felt fine.
2011-11-22 8:14 PM
in reply to: #3911918

Expert
1360
10001001001002525
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

Have you had any practice swimming in cold water?  it sounds like everything else was well trained.  I think hypothermia as well. I agree with others about trying to get faster in the water and also perhaps training in cold water to help see what your limits are.

The other thing I wanted to add is - what about florida?  I think there are foundation spots available for next year still, or you could wait until 2013 and spend the next year trying to get faster on the swim.  Similar bike and run terrain but significanly warmer water.  The trick in florida is potentially cool air temperature.  The air temp can be handled with changing clothes in T1 and being prepared for cold weather.

2011-11-23 6:57 AM
in reply to: #3911918

Pro
6011
50001000
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

My guess is hypothermia from such a long time in the water combined with the effects of the concussion on top of it after the bike crash.  Even though your smaller size is a factor in your ability to stay warm during cold swims, I don't think it's as great of a factor as your time in the water.  There are plenty of people your size who do just fine in cold water, but they're not in there for 2+ hours.

IMO, you need to work on your swim.  A lot.  You said your training swims were around 1 hour 40 minutes.  That's about 2:30 / 100 yds.  That pace indicates that you either have some pretty severe issues with your technique, or you're just cruising through the swim at a very easy relaxed pace.  BTW, if it's the second, that would contribute to hypothermia, because you're not working hard enough to generate much heat.  If it's the first, then the solution is to work on your technique.  I'd suggest a goal of being able to cruise fairly easily at about 2:00/100, which equates to about a 1 hour 20 minute IM swim.  This pace is well within reach for anyone in reasonable physical condition.  Getting out of the water in less than 90 minutes instead of 126 minutes will make a huge difference in your ability to avoid hypothermia, plus that's another 35-40 minutes that you have before the bike cutoff.

2011-11-23 7:37 AM
in reply to: #3911918

Master
2642
200050010025
Bloomington, MN
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

I would agree with TriMyBest in regards to the swim training.  I was volunteering at IMAZ at the swim exit and was helping people up out of the water.  I would say anyone past 1:35 to 1:45 was looking very, very cold.  Blue lips, cheeks, etc.  In some cases having difficulty navigating with cramps, and dizzy.  My guess is that you had some level of hypothermia (not sure if there are levels).  Have you ever practiced or raced in 61 degree water before?  That may explain some of it. 

Great job trying to finish.  I think you ultimately did the right and safe thing by quitting.  You health is much more important that pushing through a race.  Good luck with your training and future races.

2011-11-23 9:19 AM
in reply to: #3911918


243
10010025
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....
Sure am sorry to hear about this difficulty. After DNFing my irondistance race this Oct, I know you spend a long while figuring out what to differently next time. Your situation is a bit different in that it was something that you did not plan on and couldn't control. At least at mine, I chose, for a variety of reasons, to stop to prevent injury.
Anyway, I understand what folks are saying about getting faster on the swim. I kinda chuckle at this as I have NOT gotten faster even after months of lessons and several years of swimming(started at age 42). I have tried and tried and at this point I just choose to do races that either always use wetsuits and neutral temps since I know I will be out there a while. I know my swim is the limiter and I tend to work around it.
Sometimes it is not as easy as "just get faster". Good luck for your next IM. I know you will find a great solution!
C


2011-11-23 9:49 AM
in reply to: #3911918

Master
5557
50005002525
, California
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

I was thinking along the same lines as Don.  Even though ideally you'd like to conserve some energy on an IM swim, it's different in cold water.  You're better off swimming somewhat harder to get done faster and generate more body heat while you're doing it.

Acclimatizing is the other part.  I'm about 6'2", 150lbs, swam CdA this year (54 degrees) and I felt ok.  But I grew up freezing my butt off in the Puget Sound.  There were many folks at CdA who ended their day in medical after that swim.

Sorry to hear about your experience and I'm glad you weren't hurt worse on the bike.

2011-11-24 10:37 PM
in reply to: #3911918

New user
31
25
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

Your story is very similiar to my wife's story at her first HIM earlier this year. She trained very hard, and was in excellent shape. Not fast, but good enough to make the cutoffs without to much effort. On race day the weather was horrible. They seriously considered cancelling the swim the evening before the race, but on the next morning the water did look better, altough still raining and wind howling with choppy waters. She made the swim cutoff by a few minutes, but the very hilly bike course and terrible weather (wind and rain!) made her miss the bike cutoff by 2min.

Everyone will have a bad race day somewhere along the line, no matter how prepared you are. Just take as many lessons as you can from the experience (I DNF'ed my first sprint a few years ago and finished a HIM 9 months later) and focus on your next challenge.

2011-11-25 9:07 AM
in reply to: #3911918

Veteran
249
10010025
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....
Tri Fit - 2011-11-22 1:26 PM

Would love some opinions from experienced IM'ers.  I had a DNF at IMAZ, and am still trying to process.  Trying to figure out what I need to do differently.

I am 5"5", 115# on race day. All my OW swim practices at IM distance were around 1hr40min, so thought I was in good shape.  The water was 61 degrees race morning, I had booties, a neoprene hoodie, and earplugs.  I ate my usual bagel with peanut butter/jelly with tea and a bottle of water/Nuun at 4am, then had a gel pack and bottle of water at transition.  I definitely struggled a little with the ccccold, but was able to keep moving.

My swim time was 2:06!!!  Horrible for me, and I was really hypothermic.  They pulled me through Medical and had me sit in a warm tub for a few minutes.  I had a gel pack and water in my T1 bag, but my gut wouldn't let me take the gel.  I just figured let me get out on the course and settle in, I'll start on my nutrition.

Never got a chance.  Started to feel really weird (should have stopped in hindsight but my head was foggy).  Mile 15 I went out cold and crashed.  Managed to come around, eat a little, and get going again....but I wasn't right the rest of the ride.  Felt foggy and was never really clear on mileage or time.  I completed 2 full loops before missing the 3pm cutoff by 2 minutes.  Only then did I take my helmet off, the headache was immediate.  My helmet had 4 breaks and a gouge missing.

Lots of road rash, stitches, and a concussion.  I'll live.  But I need to figure out if it was the hypothermia,  or the nutrition, or both???  Any thoughts???   Am I too small for cold water swims at that distance (that's what friends are saying)?  Should I have forced that gel in T1??  Was getting in that warm tub a mistake physiologically?

There may be no right answer.  Just please understand that I did everything to the letter in training, and was ready on race day (I thought).  I am frustrated with the result.  Does anyone have thoughts about good warm water IM's???  Either in the US or elsewhere?  Thanks for your thoughts......



I think it had to do your nutrition. You only ate a P&B and Nuun + 1 gel before the race? The problem is your body has to work extremely hard to stay warm in 61 degree water for 2+hours.

You then got nothing in on the bike at all?

It sounds very cut and dry to me. It was your nutrition and/or fluid intake.

2011-11-25 5:00 PM
in reply to: #3911918

Expert
943
50010010010010025
Highlands Ranch, CO
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

I did IMAZ as well and had issues with the water temp as well. I waited until the very end to get into the water for that exact reason. (and to avoid getting into battle) I don't do well in cold water and had a neoprene cap and booties on. Being my first IM, I really didn't know how to pace myself for the day but while I certainly wasn't sprinting, I felt I was moving along for me. Coming from CO, I had an advantage and didn't feel the cardio effects that I might of if I had been at home. I was very worried about how the cold was going to effect me and did my best to ignore it for the first half of the swim. At the turn around my legs starting shaking in my wetsuit. From then on it was a mind over matter to get to the finish. The colder I got, the harder it was to swim which of course meant a longer time in the water.  It took me 19 minutes in T1 before I felt I could get on my bike safely.  My legs starting shivering well before the hour mark so the idea of being faster and under 1:30 to avoid the effects of cold is dependent on the person. I am at least 20lbs heavier then you and still had problems. I truly think that some people handle the cold better then others. Cold and heat effect me greatly. It just is how it is for me. I loved the race and would do it again if the water temps weren't a factor but the swim became so difficult and somewhat scary that I wouldn't put myself through that again.  I am really sorry that you had the problems that you had.

2011-11-25 5:09 PM
in reply to: #3911918

Champion
19812
50005000500020002000500100100100
MA
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

I agree with Kathy above that cold water effects folks differently. From watching various IMs and talking with folks, cold water effects women more than men especially women over about 45 who are small.

I know quite a few women 45+ over the last 2 years at IMAZ that were 10-20 minutes slower than they expected and most had some issues with it being so cold.

Warming up in T1 probably helped warm up your core and perhaps you would have benefited from more time in warm water.

I doubt 1 gel in T1 would have made a difference...100 calories won't make or break your day.

Being a slower swimmer, does mean you get behind in your calories more than a faster swimmer.

Sorry about your race, but know that your training you will help you in the future.



2011-11-25 7:37 PM
in reply to: #3911918

Expert
697
500100252525
Northern CA
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

"Am I too small for cold water swims at that distance (that's what friends are saying)? "

Absolutely not! I am 5'1" and I swim in colder water all the time. I did start to go hypothermic once, but the water was under 55F.

The thing is, you had a concussion! With a concussion, a DNF is smart because running back into the fray can actually give you a much more serious head injury and can also prolong the injury. (I know this from personal experience.)

Now, the hypothermia probably didn't help things but I've known people who were put in those tubs at IMAZ in prior years and they went on to race just fine. So I think the concussion was a big factor in your DNF.

As for swimming in cold water, the others have said it: practice swimming in colder water for longer periods of times and you will get used to it. Heck, after starting to go hypothermic in 53-54F degrees, I am now hot in a wetsuit when it gets much over 70. I just got used to the lower temperatures as I did more and more OWSing.

2011-11-25 8:38 PM
in reply to: #3914648

Veteran
555
5002525
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....


I think it had to do your nutrition. You only ate a P&B and Nuun + 1 gel before the race? The problem is your body has to work extremely hard to stay warm in 61 degree water for 2+hours. You then got nothing in on the bike at all? It sounds very cut and dry to me. It was your nutrition and/or fluid intake.

+1  The 100 calories of the gel you didn't take would have made a big difference in getting your metabolism going and getting your blood sugar back to normal so you could think clearly.  Thinking clearly you would have continued to fuel and you would have put the bike in a low gear and spun a high cadence to generate some heat, while going slower so less wind thus less cooling.  

+1 You either didn't swim hard enough to generate heat and finish sooner, or you didn't practice enough swimming wearing booties to realize how slow you are.  Get swimming lessons.

I'm sympathetic for your DNF.  Thankfully you weren't seriously injured.  You had enough determination to train and get to the starting line once, you can do it again!

Good luck!

2011-11-27 5:57 PM
in reply to: #3911918

Extreme Veteran
617
500100
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

I'm not a doctor, but it sounds like hypothermia was the clear and main cause to me.

100 cals or not is inconsequential..... 5'5/115 isn't really that small... I wouldn't listen and stress about those things..

Hate that this happened to you... Lou is a great warm water race... NO chance of hypothermia there. Good luck!

2011-11-28 6:24 PM
in reply to: #3911918

Extreme Veteran
849
50010010010025
San Diego
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

Sorry you had a tough day out there.Frown

Like many others have said, hypothermia can really be a doozy.  I did CdA this last year, it was about 54 degrees and I thought I was going to die.  It took me 2 hours (instead of my 1:20 predicted time) because I couldn't feel my body.  It took me hours to warm up and I made some poor choices that negatively affected my day.  There were a lot of people who had to be pulled from the water or who couldn't continue.

I'll be doing the full Vineman in July.  Nice water...you should consider it!  The next one will be better.  Hope you have a speedy recovery.

2011-11-29 8:03 PM
in reply to: #3911918

Regular
57
2525
Boulder, CO
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

I did IM MOO this year, and the water was fine,  but I can totally sympathize with the DNF and concussion.  I'm so sorry you didn't get to finish the race.  In my case I didn't even regain consciousness until I was in the ambulance, didn't believe the paramedics when they told me I'd crashed in an Ironman (so temporarily forgot the past year), and also had some other body parts broken so continuing wasn't an option. 

Concerning the slower swimmers getting behind on nutrition in an IM:  if you truly are concerned about this, you can plan to eat in the swim.  I did -- a gel from the sleeve of my wetsuit -- and it was fine (I'm diabetic, and didn't want my blood sugar to tank in the water with that long swim).



2011-11-30 11:32 PM
in reply to: #3911918

Member
135
10025
carlsbad
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

I just want to ask the obvious about people who get cold.  Are you cold even though you wear a full suit and warm fleece lined swim cap? 

Do you do any pre race warming tricks? wear warm throw clothes...beenie, sweatshirt, sweats, socks, shoes, gloves, etc all over your wetsuit?  so you go into the water as warm as possible.

I know this wont reverse 2hrs in cold water but every bit helps. 

Pee in your suit.  sounds gross but it saved me plenty of cold nights in the pacific while in the Marines

2011-11-30 11:45 PM
in reply to: #3911918

Member
135
10025
carlsbad
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

plus if you're freezing coming out of the water, to the point where you think your safety or race is in jeopardy, you have to attack it very aggressivly!!  be prepared before hand. 

1. toe covers 2. socks 3. leg warmers 4. balclava that has a face shield. 5. warm gloves. 6. arm warmers. 7. warm top etc.

spend some time in the tents while wearing this and gather your bearing

cycle in this stuff untill you start sweating then you can always ditch it if you want.  The most important thing is getting your core temp up and getting the blood back out to the extremities and brain. 

2011-12-01 9:53 AM
in reply to: #3911918


153
1002525
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

Wow!  Thanks to everyone for your responses and your support. 

I had joined a Masters swim group a month before IMAZ, not enough time to get better!  But I will stick with it since I know it will help me and I enjoy it!

I will do the IM distance again, but it will be warmer waters!  Looking at Vineman, Florida, Louisville, and Cozumel.  Will spend 2012 getting better...and hopefully cross that IM finish line in 2013. 

2011-12-01 6:38 PM
in reply to: #3911918

Regular
64
2525
Edmonds, WA
Subject: RE: Trying to understand....

Oh man, I can relate to your experience.  I attempted IMAZ in 2010 and DNF at mile 8 of the run.  I am a good swimmer for my age group and expected to do around 1:20. We had to wait in the freezing water for about 15 min before race start.  Once out of the water, I could not get into the tent due to the crowd.  I had volunteers help me in transition and I foolishly only had a light jacket and off I went in the freezing rain/winds of that year.  I made the bike cut off by a minute, but it took every bit of energy so I was doomed on the run.  

It's taken me a year to get over my disappointment and to feel like I want to train again.  I knew I would come back one day because in this sport, you just can't say no for some reason.  So, my next Ironman will be IMFL in 2013 where the waters are warm, the bike course flat.  I can handle wind better any day than cold.  

"Never give up on something you can't go a day without thinking about."   

Good luck on your next Ironman!   

New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Trying to understand.... Rss Feed  
 
 
of 2