General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it Rss Feed  
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2012-02-11 8:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

atasic - 2012-02-11 8:39 AM While developmental swimmer work on foundation of it, it is not until the late stages among high school level and up, when all the growth is over, front to back biased developed, known heights, stroke perfected........it is then that we get into heavy emphasis on racing with certain number of stroke in all 4 strokes.

It is happening well before high school at most better AG clubs.  They are teaching SDKs at 10/under now and no breathing flags to walls is a basic foundational concept for AGers now.  5-6 SDKs off each wall is commonplace for almost all swimmers in year round programs.



2012-02-11 9:01 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
H20 Killer - 2012-02-11 8:50 AM

atasic - 2012-02-11 8:39 AM While developmental swimmer work on foundation of it, it is not until the late stages among high school level and up, when all the growth is over, front to back biased developed, known heights, stroke perfected........it is then that we get into heavy emphasis on racing with certain number of stroke in all 4 strokes.

It is happening well before high school at most better AG clubs.  They are teaching SDKs at 10/under now and no breathing flags to walls is a basic foundational concept for AGers now.  5-6 SDKs off each wall is commonplace for almost all swimmers in year round programs.

I assume SDK= short dolphin kicks. Yes, we do conduct training in that area with 10 and under, I was referring to your and adventurebear argument over DPS, SPL.......not dolphin kicking off the wall. You can relax, it is all ok. I am familiar as I coach for one of those clubs. 

2012-02-11 9:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
SDK = streamline dolphin kick.  Odd that you coach for a good AG club and don't know this, kind of basic.

Edited by H20 Killer 2012-02-11 9:26 AM
2012-02-11 9:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

H20 Killer - 2012-02-11 9:25 AM SDK = streamline dolphin kick.  Odd that you coach for a good AG club and don't know this, kind of basic.

 

Ok. No, I did not write anywhere that I coach for "elite level" club, whatever that elite club means.

Sorry, I did not meet your standard. But as you did with adventurebear, you are trying to make this personal. No, we are not going go down that road on a public forum.

I am ASCA and USA Swimming Level 2 coach, I do have education Level 3 (Physiology School). I do coach for a medium size club, 200-225 swimmers, AG swimming, from swim school level, LSC DII, DI, Zone, Sectional and few JR. National Level swimmers. That is all irrelevant.

If you read the original post by OP, you will find that this thread is about helping him master a skill, not about you arguing abrasively over your position on various subjects.

While you undeniably know few things, I am going to take a line out of the coaching books on my shelf, nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care.

Yes, some of us care to help swimmers when help is needed and I put that above arguing here with you.   We can have a differences of opinion, but that can be communicated differently than what you are choosing.

Silly me, did not know what SDK stood for. Sorry. By the way, not an excuse, nobody on our coaching staff uses SDK nor have I ran into it in over a dozen various manuals from ASCA or USA Swimming.

PS: I don't know everything, but I sure am one of those that will spend time and effort learning as much as possible so that I can be of use to the kids I coach. 

2012-02-11 9:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

H20 Killer - 2012-02-11 9:25 AM SDK = streamline dolphin kick.  Odd that you coach for a good AG club and don't know this, kind of basic.

 

Keep editing your post.

2012-02-11 9:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

A very intesting thread guys - thanks.  I have a few observations, but first I should put out the disclaimer that I'm a middle aged guy who just started swimming again a couple of years back and I'm very far from expert!  I swim 2 or 3 times a week at typically ~2500 per session and am working with a tri coach.  I'm reasonably quick over short distances (relative to my peers at least!) and my form is "pretty good", but I struggle with endurance.  I can maintain around 1:40 per 100 over longer distances. 

So, with that said...

It seems to me that there really should be different answers to the original question based on where you are with your swimming.  I'm an open turner at the moment (working on my flip, but it disrupts my sets if I try during workouts).  I do still tend to take a pretty good breath going in to the turns (especially later in sets) but I also try not to use the walls too much for propulsion.  If I choose too I've got a pretty good kick off the wall and am very comfortable "doing the dolphin" over shorter distances, but I ultimately find it counter productive over longer sets.   It seems to me that for "newbs" like me, the benefits of taking a few extra breaths and finishing a long set with reasonably good form far outweighs saving a few seconds at the wall early and falling apart.....

As for generally doing restricted breathing sets, again I'm not sure that I get it for someone like me.  I breathe every three during my normal sets and occasionally coach will throw in a few laps of "every five".  In practice I like being comfortable at every three as I feel that I have a little in reserve and can switch to every two if I start to get too tired and lose form.   As above, it may slow me down a little, but if it allows me to finish the set, that's what I'm going to do.

Then there's the open water aspect.  In addition to sighting, which for the newb disrupts your rhythm somewhat (I know if shouldn't but the fact is that it does), in my experience if you're going to change your breathing pattern it's going to be so that you are either avoiding chop/splash or simply trying to get more air.  For me this is certainly going to mean going from every three to every two (not every four), so I'm not sure that restricted breathing work is going to help all that much.

I know that none of this is rocket science, but it seems to me that this (excellent) thread has trended towards (a) people seeking to swim fast in a pool and (b) advice for triathletes who are better swimmers that I am.   There seems to be some pretty good advice for folks who fall in to one of those categories, and I look forward to the day when I can practice some of this stuff, but this is BT and for someone like me why worry?   More important to finish my sets with reasonably good form and if that involves open turns and breathing inside the flags, so be it! 

Just my $0.02

 

 

 



2012-02-11 10:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
atasic - 2012-02-11 9:42 AM

H20 Killer - 2012-02-11 9:25 AM SDK = streamline dolphin kick.  Odd that you coach for a good AG club and don't know this, kind of basic.

 

Keep editing your post.

I edited because you aren't at a level 4 gold medal club and didn't want to say elite.  I edited it because you are at a level 2 so I was trying to be more accurate.  That is why I edited.

2012-02-11 11:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

FWIW, I think there are still a lot of terms used regionally that are not common in other parts of the country.  I suspect that SDK is one of them.

I'm only an assistant HS coach, but our head coach is a former D1 swimmer who also swam for NBAC, so the guy has been around, but I've never heard him use that term either.

2012-02-11 11:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
atasic - 2012-02-11 7:39 AM

I think most of you are correct on breathing and racing. It is really not the same across the whole range.

Racing 50 and 100 is done on restricted breathing. I will not get into the patterns, no need, you have nothing to gain from it. 50s are no breath for elite swimmers.

200 and up, take as much oxygen as you need, elite swimmers sure do. It was mentioned above, breathing is disruptive to the perfect body line, no matter how well you hide it. Yes, it is slowing every swimmer down. However, oxygen supply outweighs that argument as the racing gets into 200 and up. Current 1500m WR holder proves that. Breath as much as you need. Do not restrict.

It is similar with dolphin kicking off the walls, 200-400, very strong, swimmers go hypoxic to do it, beyond that a lot less to none. It is widely known fact that oxygen supply plays a major role in the closing stages of these races, you breath in previous quarter to supply the current one. So to speak. Dolphin kicking and strategy change in the last quarter to last 50-100 as swimmers do use them more in those stages. Last 50 can usually be very hypoxic depending on swimmers training and race strategy selected.

It is universal that competitive  swimmers train not to breath inside the flags regardless of distance. You don't have to, so I do not see the reason for argument.

Math and swimming, stroke rates, DPS..........I am not going to flare up the argument, but will share this, the concept is there no doubt and it is a widely used tool among coaches and swimmers. While developmental swimmer work on foundation of it, it is not until the late stages among high school level and up, when all the growth is over, front to back biased developed, known heights, stroke perfected........it is then that we get into heavy emphasis on racing with certain number of stroke in all 4 strokes.

The race strategy for every swimmer includes, times, stroke rates and breathing patterns. That is a part of the race pace training  of all competitive swimmers. 

Sweet... only 7 pages to explain the difference between competitive swim racing and recreational distance swimmers. Thank you very much.

I will say, this aspect is one of the most frustrating when it comes to learning how to train in three different sports. There are those with single sport racing backgrounds that thinks that some over 40 guy getting off the couch to be active in 3 sports needs to train the same way as a 20 something elite level competitive athlete doing one sport. Then I am left through sifting through all the info out there till someone thoughtfully explains the difference.

I have no problem what so ever understanding where to save time in short distance sprints... and in order to be able to do that, one must train ridiculous distances doing that. I can also accept the fact that in general one should work at getting better in three sports by doing what those do in single sports. Generally.

But I also understand elite level swimmers didn't know all this stuff the day they jumped in a pool. It was a foundation built over many years with progressive learning built of those years of work. That is the other frustrating part in all this.... that this over 40 guy getting off the couch needs to start doing the things that elites have learned over many years. I have no foundation. I have a crappy form that needs lots of work. Most days I'm just slogging through the workout trying to keep up. I add bits and pieces as I learn them. Mimicking them for a day does not mean I have mastered them. SDK is useless to me since rarely are any two flip turns the same. Thanks for everyone that has tried to shed some light on the subject. I learned a lot... now mastering that is a different story....

...and to top it off I could not drag my sorry butt out of bed this morning at 5:30 to get to masters and now I feel like doo doo for it.

2012-02-11 11:20 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
JollyRoger - 2012-02-11 8:43 AM

It seems to me that there really should be different answers to the original question based on where you are with your swimming.  I'm an open turner at the moment (working on my flip, but it disrupts my sets if I try during workouts).  I do still tend to take a pretty good breath going in to the turns (especially later in sets) but I also try not to use the walls too much for propulsion.  If I choose too I've got a pretty good kick off the wall and am very comfortable "doing the dolphin" over shorter distances, but I ultimately find it counter productive over longer sets.   It seems to me that for "newbs" like me, the benefits of taking a few extra breaths and finishing a long set with reasonably good form far outweighs saving a few seconds at the wall early and falling apart.....

 

So... I am a convert, and you really need to work on your flips. The only way they will never disrupt your set, is if you do them and learn them and then they will not. No way to practice them here and there and expect to just do them... you need thousands to get good.

I made all the same arguments I have seen others make. Don't do them in OWS. Pushing off the wall takes pool length away to practice my stroke. I can't get a good work out in... So I committed to doing them and like everyone before me found out what "they" were talking about. My swim feels more fluid and more "continuous". I keep a much better rhythm.

Now in masters class... which is very good for many reasons... I simply can't keep up doing open turns. Not that I will be racing soon... but they do swim like swimmers. They flip, streamline, stay under longer... and every turn when I am in the middle of the pack, it is blatantly obvious to me that I loose 5 feet on every turn.... and that is me getting a lot more air. So I have to swim harder down the lane to make it up till I'm gassed. They get their recovery, I'm getting none.

So work on it, it is helpful for many reasons besides winning your next swim meet you will never do.

2012-02-11 1:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

Well I guess after reading since I posted last night I am not to as bad off as I thought. I take one breath on the next to last stroke, flip, one dolphin kick before flutter kicking, stroking and popping up for a breath. This puts me about half to a full body length beyond the flags. I will play around with coming into the wall a bit quicker and no breath inside the flags and see how it affects my longer swims.

Edit to add: H2O Killer is right about being good on the turns. If your weak at them in a pool race your going to get killed.



Edited by gerald12 2012-02-11 1:35 PM


2012-02-11 1:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
gerald12 - 2012-02-11 12:30 PM
Edit to add: H2O Killer is right about being good on the turns. If your weak at them in a pool race your going to get killed.



That's pretty much non-controversial. Pool Racing? Wanna be faster? Get good at flip turns.
2012-02-11 1:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

AdventureBear - 2012-02-11 12:38 PM
gerald12 - 2012-02-11 12:30 PM Edit to add: H2O Killer is right about being good on the turns. If your weak at them in a pool race your going to get killed.
That's pretty much non-controversial. Pool Racing? Wanna be faster? Get good at flip turns.

I know that. It is just how to execute at longer distances to be as fast as you can overall that is the question.

2012-02-11 1:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
gerald12 - 2012-02-11 12:44 PM

AdventureBear - 2012-02-11 12:38 PM
gerald12 - 2012-02-11 12:30 PM Edit to add: H2O Killer is right about being good on the turns. If your weak at them in a pool race your going to get killed.
That's pretty much non-controversial. Pool Racing? Wanna be faster? Get good at flip turns.

I know that. It is just how to execute at longer distances to be as fast as you can overall that is the question.



Count strokes.
2012-02-11 3:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
AdventureBear - 2012-02-11 1:55 PM
gerald12 - 2012-02-11 12:44 PM

AdventureBear - 2012-02-11 12:38 PM
gerald12 - 2012-02-11 12:30 PM Edit to add: H2O Killer is right about being good on the turns. If your weak at them in a pool race your going to get killed.
That's pretty much non-controversial. Pool Racing? Wanna be faster? Get good at flip turns.

I know that. It is just how to execute at longer distances to be as fast as you can overall that is the question.

Count strokes.

Enlightenment, circa 1960.

2012-02-11 4:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
So as far as relaxing... what exactly does that look like? I do exhale all the time... every now and then on a sprint I might hold my breath when I forget. I know that does not feel right. If relaxing is important to reducing O2 consumption, what are some things to work on or look for?


2012-02-11 7:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

powerman - 2012-02-11 3:20 PM So as far as relaxing... what exactly does that look like? I do exhale all the time... every now and then on a sprint I might hold my breath when I forget. I know that does not feel right. If relaxing is important to reducing O2 consumption, what are some things to work on or look for?

It looks like this. Head in line with the spine, elbow above the wrist, fingers nice and loose, nice relaxed breathing.  No tenseness at all. Dude, you can do this all day long. Smile

2012-02-11 7:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
Haha, nice! It can be common for people to engage more muscles than they need to for performing parts of the stroke. Think of flexing your arm to show off muscles. Biceps and triceps are engaged, but your arm doesn't move. Still uses up energy. In order to hold position, someone might engage all the muscles around the arm to make sure they get it. This may help get the position, but wastes energy. You don't need the bicep/tricep flex to extend your arm, it's all on the shoulder. you don't need to flex all the forearm muscles for hand position. Just the ones that keep it flat against the water. If you swim like a stereotypical triathlete in a wetsuit, you don't need to engage the legs at all because they're just trailing behind. People flex leg muscles much more than they think when trying to keep streamlined while swimming.
2012-02-11 10:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

Got some great advice above. Make sure your jaw, neck, arms during recovery are relaxed, weightless arm in front, kick has been covered above. 

Try during warm up and cooldown, go to the middle of pool, these are called double turn 50s, push off the bottom, swim very relaxed, almost lazy but with perfect stroke, and practice turns, you will have 2 turns during these 50s vs. 1 on regular, practice inhaling extra breath much like Yang into and after the wall passed flags.........recoveries, as long as it takes to repay oxygen debt and breathing settles, this is not fast swimming, rather relaxed swimming suitable for cooldown and warm up so it does not take away from MS work.

We can talk progression from there later.

2012-02-11 10:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
Thanks a bunch guys. I will try to take a look at that next swim. I have done the finger tip drill before and while there might be other reasons... I always thought it was relaxing.
2012-02-11 10:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
gerald12 - 2012-02-11 6:47 PM

powerman - 2012-02-11 3:20 PM So as far as relaxing... what exactly does that look like? I do exhale all the time... every now and then on a sprint I might hold my breath when I forget. I know that does not feel right. If relaxing is important to reducing O2 consumption, what are some things to work on or look for?

It looks like this. Head in line with the spine, elbow above the wrist, fingers nice and loose, nice relaxed breathing.  No tenseness at all. Dude, you can do this all day long. Smile

Sweet...this will be my new "happy place".



2012-02-11 10:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
Let the head go. Relax the neck, hold no tension there. As a result you'll be looking more down than forward. Let the water support you rhead like a cushion.

Next relax the hands in all phases of the stroke, during the pull simple keep them from 'collapsing' when you stroke, but don't tense them. In recovery the hand and forearm are relaxed with recovery led by the elbow and upon spearing into the water, hold only enough tone in the arm & hand to streamline and extend yoru body line, but don't tense.

The other place peopel tend to hold a lot of tension is between the shoulder blades. Good posture tells us we should stand proud with shoulder blades retracted and pulled back. In swimming you want to learn how to relax and let the shoulder blades slide on the ribcage in tehir full range of motion...you can only do this if you relax the upper back.

THere are tons of places people hold tension...but the neck is the biggest culpret.
2012-05-29 9:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
Looking for someone,Please help,Does anyone know hanzchloe and how to get intouch with him. I need help!!
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