General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it Rss Feed  
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2012-02-03 8:00 PM

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Subject: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

So Aquagirls thread asked some of the same questions I had... but since "flip turns" was in the title... it has already been forever derailed.

What is the big deal with all the swimmers trying to make themselves pass out from lack of O2? I can do it by cutting off blood to my brain without ever having to take a shower. I used to be very good at underwater distance. Nobody could beat me and I never actually went unconscious, but close. But when it comes to swimming, I just don't get "not breathing" performing an aerobic activity.

Why can I not breath flag to flag doing a flip turn?

Why must I swim 3 or 5 strokes without breathing?

What benefit am I getting from being O2 deprived?

What am I missing?



2012-02-03 9:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

Watching this (less controversially named ) thread with interest!

2012-02-03 9:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
aquagirl - 2012-02-03 7:47 PM

Watching this (less controversially named ) thread with interest!

X2

Come on fish, we're listening...

2012-02-03 10:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
powerman - 2012-02-03 9:00 PM

What is the big deal with all the swimmers trying to make themselves pass out from lack of O2? I can do it by cutting off blood to my brain without ever having to take a shower. I used to be very good at underwater distance. Nobody could beat me and I never actually went unconscious, but close. But when it comes to swimming, I just don't get "not breathing" performing an aerobic activity.

Why can I not breath flag to flag doing a flip turn?

Why must I swim 3 or 5 strokes without breathing?

What benefit am I getting from being O2 deprived?

What am I missing?

Caveat:  I'm no fish.

I didn't see people suggesting that you make yourself (nearly) pass out.

There are (to my naive mind) a few benefits (maybe more -- these are the few I focus on) to doing flip turns with push-offs strong enough to get to the flags or beyond.  

1.  Practicing streamlining off the wall is a good way to practice good form in the water.  Yes of course one pushes off when doing open turns.  i personally find I get more effective push-offs with flip turns.  To those who say 'well, but I don't get to push off the wall during OWS so I take fewer strokes if I push off' I say 'fine, swim an extra 200m in an workout and get the best of both worlds'.

2. A few moments of not breathing is very far from going hypoxic, but it does simulate quite well the moments you'll have during OWS when you cannot breathe, for any of many reasons.

3. It is (as I think Yanti said) possible to 'cheat' on an open turn and grab an extra breath.  Grabbing this etra breath is not really possible with flip turns, so you more easily avoid the temptation to grab an extra breath, a possibility that won't be present (unless you completely stop) during OWS.  IOW, I would argue that swimming with flip turns is actually MORE like OWS than swimming with open turns (though very well executed open turns are pretty close).

2012-02-03 11:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
I've been wondering about this too. If that breath is in time with the breathing count, then how much of a difference is there? If it is indeed a little bigger than when swimming, would swimming that touch harder compensate? I guess it's a little confusing figuring out why we should swim somewhere near threshold as much as possible with a number of short breaks to help maintain form better, but then do something that could lead to more difficulty in maintaining form. I'm not opposed to doing flip-turns, but am having trouble seeing why there is a significant difference between them.
2012-02-03 11:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

My open turns are not proper open turns and yes I most certainly grab a big breath of air. They are slow, period.

I can easily go beyond the flags doing a flip turn with good streamlining... BUT, not doing hard sets where I already miss the last breath I didn't get and trying to hold my interval in Masters class with 3 people on my heels.

Just like on land.. I can increase my output and go anerobic for a short time, but there is a price to pay for that. I will have to recover. Nothing is free and I still have to get back to a balance.

Seems the same for me in swimming... sure I can go without for a bit, or make a turn, or sprint without breathing... but it all comes at a cost and I can't do that for the whole set.

Sure if I miss a breath of take a gulp of water in a OW race I can overcome that in a variety of ways, but again, nothing is free. Something has to give to get back to balance of air in energy out.

So when it comes to swimming, I just don't get what adaptation I am trying to achieve or what I am trying to train. Bottom line is that for "X" distance at "X" output is requires "X" amount of O2 to complete. That's how I see it. What am I missing?



Edited by powerman 2012-02-03 11:29 PM


2012-02-03 11:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

Why can I not breath flag to flag doing a flip turn?--You can, but it might be a little bit slower than taking 1 less breath. This especially applies to sprint swimming, less so for distance swimming. And it (obviously) only applies to pool swimming, not open water.

Why must I swim 3 or 5 strokes without breathing?--You don't have to.

What benefit am I getting from being O2 deprived?--There are no physiological speed-generating benefits to being O2 deprived while swimming.

What am I missing?--For pool swimming and more for pool racing, staying underwater for a longer time from your push off the wall means that drag is reduced for a longer time. More time with less drag = more speed.

2012-02-04 3:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
It has nothing to do with oxygen deprivation.  It is about the free speed off of walls underwater.  If you have good SDKs you are simply faster than on top of the water. And, every breath you take costs you .3-.5/second.
2012-02-04 5:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

I can understand being O2 deprived is not the goal, but it becomes the outcome for me.

I can accept there are places to save time and that technics can shave seconds. I'm not racing, but I am trying to kee up. I can see when my lane mates make time on me in the turns, but I can also see I need air.

There is a life guard (ex coach I think) that yells at one of my lane mates when he grabs a breath before a turn. He does not bother with me cause I will still do open turns from time to time. But why care in a masters class doing a workout if you grab a breath before doing a flip turn?

So obviously we are all world class swimmers now and we are saving time every where we can, but at the end of the day we still have to breath.... so then how do you get enough air and still shave time because obviously passing out is not the goal.

2012-02-04 5:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
^^^What DarkSpeedWorks and H2OKiller said^^^ You're asking about skills specific to competitive pool swimming. It's all about the details. The HS team I assist coach for won their meet by 2 points this past Thursday. One of the races was decided by .02 seconds. 1 more breath by the winner or 1 fewer by the second place swimmer probably would have changed the event and meet results.
2012-02-04 5:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
Agreed with the above, it's all about streamlining.  I also think there is a bit of a psychological advantage to teaching your brain that you aren't going to die/pass out if you don't get that breath *right now*.  As everyone knows, sometimes stuff happens in an OWS race - you might turn your head to the side for a breath and encounter water rather than air and knowing that you can just keep swimming hard and get a breath on the next cycle helps rather than panicking and stopping.


2012-02-04 5:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
powerman - 2012-02-04 7:22 AM

I can understand being O2 deprived is not the goal, but it becomes the outcome for me.

I can accept there are places to save time and that technics can shave seconds. I'm not racing, but I am trying to kee up. I can see when my lane mates make time on me in the turns, but I can also see I need air.

There is a life guard (ex coach I think) that yells at one of my lane mates when he grabs a breath before a turn. He does not bother with me cause I will still do open turns from time to time. But why care in a masters class doing a workout if you grab a breath before doing a flip turn?

So obviously we are all world class swimmers now and we are saving time every where we can, but at the end of the day we still have to breath.... so then how do you get enough air and still shave time because obviously passing out is not the goal.

Passing out isn't the goal but the point is that you aren't going to pass out.  You might feel like it but you won't.  Now I say this as someone who would get yelled at if I were working with a coach who does this because I don't do any of the things.  I breathe inside of the flags, into and out of most flip turns etc but I know I am quite capable of doing it if I choose to and I also know that if I don't get a good breath for some reason, nothing to worry about as the air will come next time and I will be fine.

2012-02-04 5:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
X2..... On the above mentioned ability to continue swimming unaffected by missing a breath or 2 while doing an OWS. In my experience more times than not even in light chop and current a wave hits your face during a breath and you need to skip a breath do I can see the benefits of practicing swimming with an erradict breathing pattern such as waiting extra strokes before capturing a breath whether it's holding it during flip turns or just during the lap itself
2012-02-04 6:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
axteraa - 2012-02-04 4:36 AM

Passing out isn't the goal but the point is that you aren't going to pass out.  You might feel like it but you won't.  Now I say this as someone who would get yelled at if I were working with a coach who does this because I don't do any of the things.  I breathe inside of the flags, into and out of most flip turns etc but I know I am quite capable of doing it if I choose to and I also know that if I don't get a good breath for some reason, nothing to worry about as the air will come next time and I will be fine.

I promise, I'm not trying to argue my case... I really don't get it.

If I'm swimming along, hitting my stride in a OWS, and I miss a breath... no big deal. I know that. I can cover 50 yrds underwater, I know what being deprived feels like.

I'm in masters class, I'm doing all I can do to keep my interval. I'm not really getting recovered on the rest, I'm loosing bits and pieces of time, and every time I get to the wall I loose time. I know if I flip I miss a breath. I know if I don't flip I loose 5 feet. I keep flipping, keep getting streamlined to get every bit out I can, keep concentrating on my stroke to get every bit of free speed.... until finally I pop. I have to take a breath, slow down, or just sit out a set.

I'm not talking about loosing a breath, I am talking about doing more work that the air I'm getting can support.

So am I just imagining things? (really)

Is there a way to overcome this?

Or are we talking about two different things and I'm not that great of a swimmer and I'm trying to swim harder instead of swimming better and just running out of air?

2012-02-04 8:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

powerman - 2012-02-04 5:22 AM But why care in a masters class doing a workout if you grab a breath before doing a flip turn?

Because perfect practice makes perfect races.  If you don't do it in training how can you ever expect to do it on race day?  Doing flip turns or open turns or even stretching a few extra strokes into/out of the wall won't send you to oxygen deprivation.  It's all in your head.  You won't die if you wait an extra 1-2 seconds to breathe, but your swimming will improve.  

You can obviously go as far as you want with swimming minutiae.  At some point, you just have to decide how many more tenths or hundredths are worth the effort.  For me, ever hundredth counts so I try to do it all.  For a newbie tri there probably is a point where it is not really returning results commensurate with the effort.  But, just remember, every single thing you can do to make your swimming faster and easier will pay off out of the water.



Edited by H20 Killer 2012-02-04 8:18 AM
2012-02-04 8:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
I am certainly not a fish, but I don't think your issue is about not enough air, although it may feel that way. I think it's really a fitness issue. You are going harder than what your current fitness allows. But that is a good thing. This is how you build fitness. Others may differ, but if you are losing form and falling too far behind then cut an occasional interval short or skip one (for shorter intervals) to get some rest. If there are multiple lanes in your group and they are based on pace, perhaps look to move to a slower lane.

One other advantage of flip turns. It helps keep a uniform pace for the lane to prevent bunch ups or cause others to have to slow down. The is especially helpful if you are circling with a crowded lane. You will be able to come off the wall much faster with flip turns and be able to swim under the person behind you as they head to the wall. Otherwise you could have a collision.



2012-02-04 8:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
H20 Killer - 2012-02-04 7:12 AM

powerman - 2012-02-04 5:22 AM But why care in a masters class doing a workout if you grab a breath before doing a flip turn?

Because perfect practice makes perfect races.  If you don't do it in training how can you ever expect to do it on race day?  Doing flip turns or open turns or even stretching a few extra strokes into/out of the wall won't send you to oxygen deprivation.  It's all in your head.  You won't die if you wait an extra 1-2 seconds to breathe, but your swimming will improve.  

You can obviously go as far as you want with swimming minutiae.  At some point, you just have to decide how many more tenths or hundredths are worth the effort.  For me, ever hundredth counts so I try to do it all.  For a newbie tri there probably is a point where it is not really returning results commensurate with the effort.  But, just remember, every single thing you can do to make your swimming faster and easier will pay off out of the water.

I realize I won't die, but that does not mean I can continue to keep my pace and keep extending the time I breath.

I totally understand being a competitive swimmer and doing everything to shave a hundredth. I really do believe you know how to lap a pool the fastest and where time can be saved. And no I do not want to be some lazy triathlete that just wants to cut corners... but ya, a tenth on race day does not matter because I will not be doing any pool swim races. Open water is just swimming the pace you can and yes proper stroke and efficiency matter big time.

It's just tough hearing what one must do to be a good swimmer and then transferring a perfect pool race to doing open water swims in a tri. No different that long distance competitive runners telling me I need to concentrate on track work and 100 miles per week, or that I must learn how to pace line if I want to ride a bike.

2012-02-04 8:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
powerman - 2012-02-04 4:41 AM

I'm in masters class, I'm doing all I can do to keep my interval. I'm not really getting recovered on the rest, I'm loosing bits and pieces of time, and every time I get to the wall I loose time. I know if I flip I miss a breath. I know if I don't flip I loose 5 feet. I keep flipping, keep getting streamlined to get every bit out I can, keep concentrating on my stroke to get every bit of free speed.... until finally I pop. I have to take a breath, slow down, or just sit out a set.

I'm not talking about loosing a breath, I am talking about doing more work that the air I'm getting can support.

So am I just imagining things? (really)

Is there a way to overcome this?

Or are we talking about two different things and I'm not that great of a swimmer and I'm trying to swim harder instead of swimming better and just running out of air?

Seems to me if your in a Masters class you are no longer just swimming for a triathlon but you are training like a swimmer.  Your main goal might be the tri's but the Master's program is about producing fast swimmers.  So right now you go and go and go and then eventually you have to give cause you reached your breaking point.  Eventually your breaking point changes and you go just a bit longer.  So, to answer your question of is there a way to overcome this...keep swimming.

2012-02-04 8:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
powerman - 2012-02-04 7:41 AM
axteraa - 2012-02-04 4:36 AM

Passing out isn't the goal but the point is that you aren't going to pass out.  You might feel like it but you won't.  Now I say this as someone who would get yelled at if I were working with a coach who does this because I don't do any of the things.  I breathe inside of the flags, into and out of most flip turns etc but I know I am quite capable of doing it if I choose to and I also know that if I don't get a good breath for some reason, nothing to worry about as the air will come next time and I will be fine.

I promise, I'm not trying to argue my case... I really don't get it.

If I'm swimming along, hitting my stride in a OWS, and I miss a breath... no big deal. I know that. I can cover 50 yrds underwater, I know what being deprived feels like.

I'm in masters class, I'm doing all I can do to keep my interval. I'm not really getting recovered on the rest, I'm loosing bits and pieces of time, and every time I get to the wall I loose time. I know if I flip I miss a breath. I know if I don't flip I loose 5 feet. I keep flipping, keep getting streamlined to get every bit out I can, keep concentrating on my stroke to get every bit of free speed.... until finally I pop. I have to take a breath, slow down, or just sit out a set.

I'm not talking about loosing a breath, I am talking about doing more work that the air I'm getting can support.

So am I just imagining things? (really)

Is there a way to overcome this?

Or are we talking about two different things and I'm not that great of a swimmer and I'm trying to swim harder instead of swimming better and just running out of air?

It sounds to me that you are just swimming good, hard, challenging, sets and pushing yourself until you can't hit the interval any more.  That's good.

How do you overcome getting wasted during a set?  Keep trying.  Breathe as often as possible (i.e., every stroke cycle).  As others said, your aerobic stress is not attributable to the brief moment of missed breath due to the flip turns.  It is the result of hard work in the pool.  Keep it up!

2012-02-04 9:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
powerman - 2012-02-04 8:30 AM Open water is just swimming the pace you can and yes proper stroke and efficiency matter big time.

It's just tough hearing what one must do to be a good swimmer and then transferring a perfect pool race to doing open water swims in a tri. No different that long distance competitive runners telling me I need to concentrate on track work and 100 miles per week, or that I must learn how to pace line if I want to ride a bike.

My true swimming passion is 5K + open water racing. Everything you do well in the pool translates to better OW swimming, but the converse is not always true. It takes me a good three months after OW season to get fast pool form back.
2012-02-04 9:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it

Or are we talking about two different things and I'm not that great of a swimmer and I'm trying to swim harder instead of swimming better and just running out of air?

Yes you are.  Try and find the point to where you feel you're still swimming with good form AND giving a good effort.   When you feel things starting to get bad, (no rest, bad form) back off a bit. It sounds like maybe the intervals for some sets may be a bit too much for you.  If you're not getting enough rest then add 5 or 10 sec. or whatever to your interval set. 

As for breathing in the turns, during hard sets, do what ever will get you through.  I would work on not breathing IN the turns on warm ups and less intense sets.  It sounds like you have the push off the wall good if your making it to the flags.  For the record, I take a breath between the flags into the turn and the first stroke off the wall.  That works for me.  Good luck.

 



2012-02-04 9:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
I don't worry about breathing right up to the flip turn as long as it doesn't effect my form ( ie taking one last breath which requires a little crappy half stroke kind of thing). I think it's more important to get a nice stream line off the wall and taking one stroke before I breath, as coming out of stream line immediately into a breath tends to break form and flow. Do I do this every time? No, but I try and it's always on my mind when I approach a wall. It's all about breathing efficiency and stroke efficiency. I think if you practiced the the things you mentioned on longer, slower sets after a bit of time you'll beable to apply them to the faster interval sets. Train your body.
2012-02-04 9:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
I don't worry about breathing right up to the flip turn as long as it doesn't effect my form ( ie taking one last breath which requires a little crappy half stroke kind of thing). I think it's more important to get a nice stream line off the wall and taking one stroke before I breath, as coming out of stream line immediately into a breath tends to break form and flow. Do I do this every time? No, but I try and it's always on my mind when I approach a wall. It's all about breathing efficiency and stroke efficiency. I think if you practiced the the things you mentioned on longer, slower sets after a bit of time you'll beable to apply them to the faster interval sets. Train your body.
2012-02-04 11:01 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
Experior - 2012-02-04 10:34 AM
powerman - 2012-02-04 7:41 AM
axteraa - 2012-02-04 4:36 AM

Passing out isn't the goal but the point is that you aren't going to pass out.  You might feel like it but you won't.  Now I say this as someone who would get yelled at if I were working with a coach who does this because I don't do any of the things.  I breathe inside of the flags, into and out of most flip turns etc but I know I am quite capable of doing it if I choose to and I also know that if I don't get a good breath for some reason, nothing to worry about as the air will come next time and I will be fine.

I promise, I'm not trying to argue my case... I really don't get it.

If I'm swimming along, hitting my stride in a OWS, and I miss a breath... no big deal. I know that. I can cover 50 yrds underwater, I know what being deprived feels like.

I'm in masters class, I'm doing all I can do to keep my interval. I'm not really getting recovered on the rest, I'm loosing bits and pieces of time, and every time I get to the wall I loose time. I know if I flip I miss a breath. I know if I don't flip I loose 5 feet. I keep flipping, keep getting streamlined to get every bit out I can, keep concentrating on my stroke to get every bit of free speed.... until finally I pop. I have to take a breath, slow down, or just sit out a set.

I'm not talking about loosing a breath, I am talking about doing more work that the air I'm getting can support.

So am I just imagining things? (really)

Is there a way to overcome this?

Or are we talking about two different things and I'm not that great of a swimmer and I'm trying to swim harder instead of swimming better and just running out of air?

It sounds to me that you are just swimming good, hard, challenging, sets and pushing yourself until you can't hit the interval any more.  That's good.

How do you overcome getting wasted during a set?  Keep trying.  Breathe as often as possible (i.e., every stroke cycle).  As others said, your aerobic stress is not attributable to the brief moment of missed breath due to the flip turns.  It is the result of hard work in the pool.  Keep it up!

I totally agree with this.  By the sounds of things, you are doing what you need to do.  Keep challenging yourself they way you have been.  Go as long as you can focusing on all those details until as you say "you pop" - it happens, I don't see anything wrong with it (assuming you aren't popping after only 5 mins).  Then take that extra breath or skip a 50 and then get right back at it.  Good luck, sounds like you are on the right track!

2012-02-04 11:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it
axteraa - 2012-02-05 1:01 AM
Experior - 2012-02-04 10:34 AM
powerman - 2012-02-04 7:41 AM
axteraa - 2012-02-04 4:36 AM

Passing out isn't the goal but the point is that you aren't going to pass out.  You might feel like it but you won't.  Now I say this as someone who would get yelled at if I were working with a coach who does this because I don't do any of the things.  I breathe inside of the flags, into and out of most flip turns etc but I know I am quite capable of doing it if I choose to and I also know that if I don't get a good breath for some reason, nothing to worry about as the air will come next time and I will be fine.

I promise, I'm not trying to argue my case... I really don't get it.

If I'm swimming along, hitting my stride in a OWS, and I miss a breath... no big deal. I know that. I can cover 50 yrds underwater, I know what being deprived feels like.

I'm in masters class, I'm doing all I can do to keep my interval. I'm not really getting recovered on the rest, I'm loosing bits and pieces of time, and every time I get to the wall I loose time. I know if I flip I miss a breath. I know if I don't flip I loose 5 feet. I keep flipping, keep getting streamlined to get every bit out I can, keep concentrating on my stroke to get every bit of free speed.... until finally I pop. I have to take a breath, slow down, or just sit out a set.

I'm not talking about loosing a breath, I am talking about doing more work that the air I'm getting can support.

So am I just imagining things? (really)

Is there a way to overcome this?

Or are we talking about two different things and I'm not that great of a swimmer and I'm trying to swim harder instead of swimming better and just running out of air?

It sounds to me that you are just swimming good, hard, challenging, sets and pushing yourself until you can't hit the interval any more.  That's good.

How do you overcome getting wasted during a set?  Keep trying.  Breathe as often as possible (i.e., every stroke cycle).  As others said, your aerobic stress is not attributable to the brief moment of missed breath due to the flip turns.  It is the result of hard work in the pool.  Keep it up!

I totally agree with this.  By the sounds of things, you are doing what you need to do.  Keep challenging yourself they way you have been.  Go as long as you can focusing on all those details until as you say "you pop" - it happens, I don't see anything wrong with it (assuming you aren't popping after only 5 mins).  Then take that extra breath or skip a 50 and then get right back at it.  Good luck, sounds like you are on the right track!

Yup.

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