General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Looking for swimming critique (video attached) Rss Feed  
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2013-02-21 9:20 AM

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Subject: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)

Hi all, I'm new to the boards and I am training for a sprint tri in at the end of April.  I've been in the water before in pools and can stay afloat and get around in the pool, but never actually tried to swim correctly ever.  With that being said, I started my swim training about 4 weeks ago.  The first day I went swimming in a 25 yard pool I thought it would be a breeze and I was horribly mistaken.  I got about half way across the pool and was dead tired and swallowed so much water.  At that point I decided to get a snorkel and pull buoy and teaching myself while using those two tools I was able to work on my stroke quite a bit since I didn't have to worry as much about staying afloat or breathing. 

I posted about this several days ago and there was an overwhelming response for me to ditch the buoy and snorkel as soon as possible and also to take lessons.  We'll I listened to the masses and did both.  I have only had 2 sessions without the buoy and snorkel so far, so things aren't exactly pretty right now.  I also took a lesson from a professional triathlete last night and this is where the videos are from.  I can handle criticism very well and she told me in so many words that my catch and pull were pretty much non exsistent and my kick was pretty bad as well.  I kind of figured as much with only 4 weeks of training and 2 sessions with no tools to help me. 

I am posting one video without using any tools and the other video is with using the snorkel.  Only reason I had her tape me with the snorkel is because I feel a lot more in control and smooth with it on and wanted to see if I could notice a difference in the two videos.  Both of these vids were taken at the very end of an hour long session which is about my max limit for training after a month, so I am sure that added to how my form looks, because I was dead tired.  With that being said, feel free to critique away.  I know I still have a ways to go, just looking for any solid advice.

 

*edit*  having problems posting videos.  It is telling me "videos must be less than 100"?   Less than 100 what, mb?  My video's are 11 and 12 mb.   Not sure why it won't let me post them.  Ok, apparently I need help with my swimming and also how to post videos.  I can't figure this out



Edited by spiderjunior 2013-02-21 9:40 AM


2013-02-21 10:05 AM
in reply to: #4631467

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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)

Sorry about that, I realized I had to upload to youtube to get this to work.  Here are the links:

 

No Snorkel - http://youtu.be/cEjlgtjJ3Zg

With Snorkel - http://youtu.be/GZaT0jgHxlI

 

2013-02-21 10:40 AM
in reply to: #4631467

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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)
A few observations:

W/O snorkel

Some basic elements are pretty good. In particular you don't cross over (at least much) during your stroke, a problem with many inexperienced swimmers.

You're really losing momentum when you breath. You don't need to roll the body over any more during a breath than you do for a regular stroke. Just a small turn of the head will get it done. Your choice of bilateral breathing (every three) could be problematic if you always do it -- why limit the O2 you can get in?

You're showing a tendency to want to glide between strokes (worse when breathing). When you glide you lose momentum. Yes, you want a long, full stroke, but it should be a continuous process. Paradoxically, some popular drills, like "catch up" and "6 kick rotations" along with "swim golf" can make this worse. Don't get me wrong -- they can be useful drills and exercises, but can encourage gliding at the expense of a strong catch and pull.

W/ snorkel

OK, here the glide issue is really apparent -- so much so that you quit kicking entirely. It's possible this was part of some sort of drill(?)

Overall

Catch and pull -- you'll hear this terminology a lot, and hopefully your pro triathlete explained the concept. I could prattle on about it, but I recommend you purchase "Swim Speed Secrets for Swimmers and Triathletes" by Sheila Taormina. She does an excellent job explaining the catch and pull and the importance of a high elbow during the process. If I were to summarize, "catch" the water with your hand as soon as possible, then pull the hand along the length of the body during the stroke. Keep the elbow high and the forearm/hand like a vertical paddle.

Hope that's some help -- buy the book!

Ken

Edited by kenail 2013-02-21 10:41 AM
2013-02-21 1:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)
Thanks for your thoughts Ken.  Yes I definitely have a pause and glide.  i guess that comes from being self taught up until yesterday.  I am aware of it and no it was not part of a drill, it just feels natural to me, but I am realizing now that it is not proper form and its something that I am going to have to work on.  Before seeing these videos, I had an idea in my head of what I looked like while swimming, jeeeez was I wrong.  Watching these videos should help me more, and hopefully more tips or ideas will come out of this thread. 
2013-02-21 3:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)

So gliding is a not a good thing, I thought you wanted a good glide. The less strokes the better type thing. Looks like I have some more work to do. Sorry to hijack.

2013-02-21 3:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)
i think you're hand is coming out of the water sideways on the end of you're pull. Should be facing the ceiling?


2013-02-21 3:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)

Two things struck me:

1) You are flexing your knees quite a bit.  Kick needs to be generated more from the hip.  This keeps your legs more parallel to the water surface and helps hydrodynamics.  I bet you can feel some water drag on your knees, right?

2) When you breathe you are over-rotating your head.  The action of your head going through the water and the pull from your shoulder creates a trough of air along the side of your head that you should breathe from.  This means all you need to do is rotate your head 90 degrees so your nose is parallel with the water surface to breathe, you should have one eye in the water and one eye out.  Currently you are over-rotating and your entire face is out of the water when you breathe.  You will need to learn to exhale into the water because when breathing correctly there is very little time for you to suck in air.

Nevertheless, your stroke looks pretty smooth to me, need to work on your stroke turnover rate, this is what will make you faster.

2013-02-21 6:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)

Thanks everyone who responded so far.  As for oysterboy that said something about my turnover rate........ This is kind of a catch 22.  I am having a hard time breathing, I am able to breathe out underwater and then suck air in when I turn my head to breathe, but since I am still very new to swimming, I really can only do about 50 yards at a time before my breathing starts to get heavy, so to counter act that, I tried to really slow my stroke down so that I am not over exerting myself and causing myself to breathe hard earlier in my laps.   I am sure once my endurance gets better, my stroke rate will improve as well.

 

Probably the biggest thing for me that I noticed after watching this was how bad my legs and kick were.  I will have to work on that as well



Edited by spiderjunior 2013-02-21 6:09 PM
2013-02-21 7:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)

What you are experiencing is absolutely common amongst new swimmers.  Swimming uses muscles and mechanics unused in any sport.  Also, water offers constant resistance so the act of swimming can be really exhausting.  This will get better as you train more and your mechanics get better so you are fighting the water less.  As for being out of breath, one piece of advise, dump the bilateral breathing (at least for now) and breathe every other stroke.  I'd much rather see you have good stroke mechanics with unilateral breathing than having poor mechanics because you are struggling to get your breath.  I swam competitively for years and I unilateral breathe (every 4 strokes when I train) but when the heat is on in a race I end up breathing every other stroke.  Case in point:

[url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HmYwLQ-7ZE

Pieter Van den Hoogenband at the Sydney Olympics. Notice he is breathing every other stroke in the last ~25% of the race.  Oh yeah, he set a world record.  I think you can risk it and breathe every other stroke for now.

2013-02-21 10:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)

lots of good stuff already mentioned.

you can tell you kick a lot but it really doesn't provide any propulsion. if you were to just kick, do you go anywhere or maybe even backwards?

someone already mentioned about kicking from the hips and getting rid of that runners' kick you have going on. one other thing i'd like to add about the kick is your feet. you can tell that your toes are pointed towards the bottom of the pool. it's really easy to work on this... sit on your feet. it will hurt at first working on ankle flexibility will do wonders for your kick.

2013-02-22 12:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)
W/ the snorkel you're holding the glide so long that you pretty much come to a stop each stroke. So even though you're gliding nicely, you have to expend the extra energy just to get started again. You have the right idea, but when your front arm reaches extension, start your catch.

Are you trying for a 2 beat kick?


2013-02-22 7:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)

Oysterboy - Thanks for all of your input, very much appreciated.  I got to the pool at 4:30am this morning for my workout and decided to try unilateral breathing.  Two things stood out right away...... The first was that I was definitely breathing much easier when I was breathing every other stroke instead of every 3rd stroke.  But with the good comes the bad...... the second thing is that it seemed harder for me to get into a rhythm.  I think for now, I will stick with the uni breathing though.  I feel much more relaxed and my breathing is more controlled.  Thanks for the video link

 

eriqpimental - By far the biggest thing I took from those video's was my kicking and toe pointing.  Pretty much everything from the waist down seems like a mess right now, but working on it.  I have seen people talk about kneeling down and sitting on your feet and leaning back to stretch your ankles.  I'll give it a shot

 

Gonwalkabout03 - I didn't even need to see the video to know that I glide.  Unfortunately, it has been a habit since I first started.  I think it was from watching all the video's on youtube, mainly the total immersion ones.  People in those videos seem to glide, although the glide is seemless with the catch and pull, definitely something to work on.  Also, with the snorkel on, yes I was kind of trying for a 2 beat kick.  With no snorkel, that video was taken after my trainer told me to constantly do little flutter kicks.  That is what I was trying in that video, but prior to that, I had an even worse kick than what you are seeing in the vid's.  

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts everyone.  Its coming along slowly, but thats to be expected.  I asked a woman at the gym today how long she has been swimming, because her stroke was effortless and she told me since she was 2 years old.   I have to keep that stuff in mind.  When i see all these people swimming at the gym they all look like it is so easy, I have to keep telling myself that they did not all just jump in a pool and a month later it looked like that.   Practice, practice, practice is all I am trying to do right now

 

 



Edited by spiderjunior 2013-02-22 7:19 AM
2013-02-22 7:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)

Yep, practice, practice, practice.  I am not surprised that the unilateral breathing seems awkward as just about anything new that you do in the water will seem awkward.  Do some swimming using a pull buoy between your legs to isolate on your stroke.  This will also give you how your legs should feel going through the water, and identify when your legs are dragging you down.  Do some kickboard drills, obviously you need to work on your kick.

Mostly keep at it.  Do not underestimate how many yards have gone into well-polished swim mechanics.  I'd really like to know how many miles I've logged in the water, likely in the thousands over the years.  One thing I think will help is to watch you tube videos of the great freestyle swimmers (for example: Van den Hoogenband, Phelps, Ian Thorpe), this should help you gain a mental image of what you should look like going through the water.

2013-02-22 10:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)
Your right foot looks like it is pointing directly down towards the bottom when you kick. Try pointing it back. Ankle flexibility. If you have issues with this do some drills with fins to help. Also, swim harder and push yourself to just go faster. You may have to start doing shorter intervals but if you don't push yourself on the shorter distances then you're not going to get faster in the longer run either.
2013-02-27 8:45 AM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)
Just wanted to say another quick thanks to everybody that responded.  My last two sessions I swam 1600 yards and then 1400 yards.  The 1600 yard swim was all 50 yard sets.  I worked on technique a ton.  Main things I worked on was unilateral breathing which has been amazing compared to bilateral for me.  Also, pushing my chest down and keeping my head down when breathing has really helped me lift my hips and legs.  This first session, I still had a mental block that was not allowing me to swim more than 50 yards at a time, but today's session where I did 1400 yards, I just told myself that when I touch the wall at the 50 yard mark, to just push off and head the other way no matter how out of breath I felt.   I quickly realized that just because I was sort of breathing heavy, that didn't mean I HAD to stop to catch my breath.  I pushed off the wall after 50 yards and did another up and back making it 100 yards.  On the way to the wall at 100 yards I told myself, why stop here???  So I pushed off again and ended up doing 200 yards non stop.  I took a 1 minute break and then did another 200 yard set and then repeated that with another 1 minute break and another 200 yard set.  What a HUGE break thru of a day.  I left the pool happier than ever.    Couldn't have done it without the tips that everybody suggested.  Thanks again............ I am super stoked.  Can't wait to get back to the pool again. 
2013-02-27 9:02 AM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)
There you go!  Good job!  You'll be doing 300, 400, 500+ nonstop before you know it.  You've gotten over the mental hurdle that everyone has to go through.  Keep pushing and refining your technique...endurance and speed will follow.  


2013-02-27 2:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)
So this will sound crazy, but your swimming without the snorkel actually looks better than with the snorkel.

With the snorkel you are getting good streamlining ( gliding) but at the expense of over rotating so that yoru belly button is to the side wall. This is exacerbated by your recovery elbow coming behind you trying to tip your body even further. That's part of wehre the wild kick comes from you are simply trying to stabilize yourself.

I see more issues right now with just comfort and balance int he water than with any concern for catch & pull. Your catch & pull from this angle look fine, better than average for a new swimmer in fact.

You want to maintain streamlining while minimizing the use of legs to compensate for balance so learning to glide without the wild kick is a good thing. You don't want fewest strokes, you want to optimize stroke length.

My suggestions:
-Practice skating drill and minimize the kick as much as possible so that the body stays balanced & streamlined front to back. Adjust the depth of the leading arm as well as where you are putting pressure on your armpit/collarbone area to find balance without kicking so much.

-Practice superman glide to skate with a single kick over and over...one stroke, one kick with the same side leg as the arm that is stroking. Imprint the body rotation into the kick, rather than kick as a stabilizer.

Free the legs up fro their balance duties so they can aid in achieving streamlining right and left sides of the body...using the whole body to work in concert for the same motions you are currently just using the arms to do.

You are doing great, and should not leave the lesson with a feeling of criticism...lots of good elements here.
2013-02-28 8:14 AM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)
Wow, great write up and info Suzanne.  Thanks for really taking the time to analyze what you saw and giving me your feed back.  I have seen a few other "swimming threads" where people said they really valued your opinion, so I really appreciate your reply.  
2013-03-03 9:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)
spiderjunior - 2013-02-22 6:18 AM

Gonwalkabout03 - I didn't even need to see the video to know that I glide.  Unfortunately, it has been a habit since I first started.  I think it was from watching all the video's on youtube, mainly the total immersion ones.  People in those videos seem to glide, although the glide is seemless with the catch and pull, definitely something to work on. 



It's deceptive ... watch the underwater footage of Sun Yang...his hand comes to a stop after the entry of each arm in the water before he begins stroking...he is gliding. It's the timing that changes in order to keep your speed continuous and smooth.
2013-03-03 10:01 AM
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Subject: RE: Looking for swimming critique (video attached)

Good call Suzanne,  it this vid you can see his glide, his effortless kick and hydrodynamic body positioning.  You can even clearly see his unilateral breathing and his underwater exhale.

[url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvM3JYC--hM

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