BT Development Mentor Program Archives » Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN) Rss Feed  
Moderators: alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 8
 
 
2016-01-26 7:46 AM
in reply to: slides

User image

Pro
4675
20002000500100252525
Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)

Originally posted by slides I have read mixed reviews on doing a long bike one day and a long run the next day. Some say its good to simulate race conditions by running on tired legs other say its bad. With me all "long" workouts happen on the weekend with a bike on Sat and run on Sun.

Always an interesting topic.  In your case, your schedule dictates what you have to do so there is no reason to worry about it.  I can understand arguments on both sides of the issue.  One camp says to do your long run before the weekend (Thursday is a common choice) so that you have a quality run on "fresh legs".  I often hear people say this will make you a better runner...the same argument is used against using brick runs in training.  The problem is...I'm not trying to make my athletes better "runners".   I'm trying to make them better "triathletes".  If I wanted to make them better "runners" I'd have them quit swimming and biking (partly tongue in cheek).  They don't give you a couple days break after an IM bike to let your legs recover so that you can run a marathon on fresh legs.  So, why in the world would you ever totally avoid running on "not so fresh" legs?  I can make this same argument for both brick runs and long runs the day after a long bike.  Can't make up your mind which is "best"?  Try both and see what works best for you.  I'm training triathletes so I know which one I'm choosing. 



2016-01-26 8:16 AM
in reply to: d.wilk

User image

Pro
4675
20002000500100252525
Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)

Originally posted by d.wilk
Originally posted by Birkierunner Sorry to be vague with these answers but asking is such and such enough can only be answered with "it depends....."
No problem, I totally understand that you have to speak in generalities. I appreciate any feedback I can get. Thank you for your response! Background/Race Experience/: I am completely in the first time Ironman category. As I mentioned, I've been doing sprints and Olympics the past 3 years. This Ironman will be my A Race this year. 3x per week swimming...Got that now. I'll back off the "forget swimming as much this first go round" mental attitude. My swim workouts are often 1800-2600 yards. So I can work towards 6000-8000 yards per week during training in the upcoming months and then building towards 10,000 yards toward the end. Does that sound reasonable? Too little? What might my longest swim session be...4500 yards...5000 yards? I'll probably have to fit biking into 3x per week. What might those 3 rides look like? I'm thinking one ride for around and hour of hard/intervals, another ride of 2-3 hours, and one long ride. Do you think hill repeats or intervals are more beneficial? Perhaps I can mix hill repeats in with my 2-3 hour ride. How many hours a week minimum should a newbie spend biking (let' assume most of the efforts are moderate)? Assuming that most of my running will be easy, how many hours minimum might I put in each week? I'm hesitant to do to do too much hard work as I don't have many years of base running. I've not had any injuries yet. I spend about 20% of my workouts mixing in harder work. Thank you for your advice about not doing a 3 hr. run. 2.5 hours will put my longest run at about 12-13 miles. On an earlier post, you advised against a marathon during IM training. What about a 1/2 marathon? I'm planning on running one 9 weeks out with family members. Sorry to be so long in writing and asking so many questions...there is a lot I'm wondering about right now.

I see no reason you shouldn't incorporate a half marathon into your IM training plan.  9 weeks is plenty of time to recover and then leave you with enough weekends to get your long rides/runs in before you start tapering.

Your swim approach seems reasonable.  Be sure to get some workouts in where you are doing multiple 500s.  You should also try to get some open water swims in as well, with total distance approaching race distance. 

As for bike workouts...if your race course is going to be hilly then I'd advise getting some hill work in.  In general though, I'd recommend more traditional interval work.  You really just need to find a training plan that will give you a sensible approach to building your bike fitness and gradually increasing your work load as you make your way to your A race.  The 16 week winter bike plan right here on BT is a good place to start. 

I'm not going to give you a minimum number of hours/week to run.  However, I would strive for building up to at least 4x/week and preferably 5x/week eventually.  Start off with at least 30' runs and build up to longer runs based on how your legs hold up.  There is nothing sexy or "fast" about IM run training...just get a repeatable weekly template down that you can get done over and over again.  The frequency will build the durability.  Again, this is a vague answer but there are too many unknowns.

 

2016-01-26 11:00 AM
in reply to: 0


98
252525
, Idaho
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)
Thanks for the advice on swim work outs with multiple 500s. I really like ideas on swim workouts that work. What would a possible workout of 500s look like?... Warm up, 3x-4x 500, cool down?

I'm currently running, and planning to continue to run, 5x-6x per week (frequency over volume).




Edited by d.wilk 2016-01-26 11:00 AM
2016-01-26 12:21 PM
in reply to: d.wilk

User image

Pro
4675
20002000500100252525
Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)

Originally posted by d.wilk Thanks for the advice on swim work outs with multiple 500s. I really like ideas on swim workouts that work. What would a possible workout of 500s look like?... Warm up, 3x-4x 500, cool down? 

'zactly...it doesn't need to be any more complicated or sexier than that.  You can play with mixing up the intensities of the 500s within a given workout.

2016-01-26 5:41 PM
in reply to: Birkierunner

User image


2

Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)
Hi Jim, new to the forum and interested in joining your mentoring group, if that is still possible. I am a 26 year old lawyer who got into running a few years ago; I have done a couple of sprints triathlons in the past and my most ambitious goal to date was to complete a nearby ironman 70.3, sadly a few setbacks and situations had me opt out of said race. Back then I was in top form, however due to inactivity I´m currently overweight and training hard to get back to where I was health and condition wise. I got back into running and I am looking to smashing my Half Marathon P.R. this coming summer, which is 1:58:05 (a little on the slow side for the typical triathlete standards, however being 6´3" has never helped on being on the faster side).

I used to bike anywhere from 70 to 100 kilometers each and every Saturday whilst running, swimming and hitting the gym (in no particular order or schedule) any other day of the week. I used to train 6 days a week and rest 1 day (usually sunday), now I am building up my condition and currently exercise 4 days a week. However I haven´t touched my bike in over a year now.

The reason I want in to this group is to: a)regain my health (I am not unhealthy by any means, but I do not feel like I could take on anything like I used to either) and b) to finally complete my area´s half iron man early next year (I know that if I set my mind up to it I can get it).

I will be mainly asking questions with regards to building a base condition before I undergo any formal training program.

Thanks in advance,

Hector
2016-01-26 6:04 PM
in reply to: Birkierunner

User image


114
100
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)
Originally posted by Birkierunner

Originally posted by slides I have read mixed reviews on doing a long bike one day and a long run the next day. Some say its good to simulate race conditions by running on tired legs other say its bad. With me all "long" workouts happen on the weekend with a bike on Sat and run on Sun.

Always an interesting topic.  In your case, your schedule dictates what you have to do so there is no reason to worry about it.  I can understand arguments on both sides of the issue.  One camp says to do your long run before the weekend (Thursday is a common choice) so that you have a quality run on "fresh legs".  I often hear people say this will make you a better runner...the same argument is used against using brick runs in training.  The problem is...I'm not trying to make my athletes better "runners".   I'm trying to make them better "triathletes".  If I wanted to make them better "runners" I'd have them quit swimming and biking (partly tongue in cheek).  They don't give you a couple days break after an IM bike to let your legs recover so that you can run a marathon on fresh legs.  So, why in the world would you ever totally avoid running on "not so fresh" legs?  I can make this same argument for both brick runs and long runs the day after a long bike.  Can't make up your mind which is "best"?  Try both and see what works best for you.  I'm training triathletes so I know which one I'm choosing. 




Interesting, well i think I'm going to stick with what i have planed for already with long bike sat and long run sun. If it works likes it did for you excellent if not, my work schedule is flexible enough that i can leave early one day to get a good ride in.



2016-01-26 6:10 PM
in reply to: Birkierunner

User image


114
100
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)
I had an OK workout tonight, this really made me realized how much of my endurance, strength, and pain threshold i have lost since Oct. Im blaming all of this on being a "newly wed" haha along with the 15 lbs i gained.

So every tuesday & thursday is a brick workout for me with a 1hr ride & 2 mile run that goes up incrementally on the weeks with 30 min of ride time per each mile of run i have to do that day. I came up with this on my own so I'm giving it a 60-70% chance of working. On longer days i will have to split up the brick workout to morning & evening I'm thinking.

The bike today was good up until 30 min in when i started to drag, i was doing a sufferfest video on youtube and was really suffering. Then came the run i only ran 1.5 miles due to calf cramps. I did a big leg workout on sat and I'm still sore. Anyhow hopefully Thursday will go better and i hope it doesn't take long to get my endurance back up.
2016-01-26 7:56 PM
in reply to: hagr182

User image

Pro
4675
20002000500100252525
Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)

Originally posted by hagr182 Hi Jim, new to the forum and interested in joining your mentoring group, if that is still possible. I am a 26 year old lawyer who got into running a few years ago; I have done a couple of sprints triathlons in the past and my most ambitious goal to date was to complete a nearby ironman 70.3, sadly a few setbacks and situations had me opt out of said race. Back then I was in top form, however due to inactivity I´m currently overweight and training hard to get back to where I was health and condition wise. I got back into running and I am looking to smashing my Half Marathon P.R. this coming summer, which is 1:58:05 (a little on the slow side for the typical triathlete standards, however being 6´3" has never helped on being on the faster side). I used to bike anywhere from 70 to 100 kilometers each and every Saturday whilst running, swimming and hitting the gym (in no particular order or schedule) any other day of the week. I used to train 6 days a week and rest 1 day (usually sunday), now I am building up my condition and currently exercise 4 days a week. However I haven´t touched my bike in over a year now. The reason I want in to this group is to: a)regain my health (I am not unhealthy by any means, but I do not feel like I could take on anything like I used to either) and b) to finally complete my area´s half iron man early next year (I know that if I set my mind up to it I can get it). I will be mainly asking questions with regards to building a base condition before I undergo any formal training program. Thanks in advance, Hector

Hi Hector.  You're very welcome to join our group.  Start firing away with questions.

2016-01-27 8:56 AM
in reply to: Birkierunner

User image


2

Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)
Thanks Jim,

My first questions I guess are:

1. Is there enough time to both build a base condition and train for my goal race? (expected race date is the second week of march 2017).
2. If so, are there any programs for building this base? can I fit both programs within the year and 2 or so months left till race day?
3. Any advice is really appreciated.

Kind regards!
2016-01-27 9:40 AM
in reply to: hagr182

User image

Pro
4675
20002000500100252525
Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)

Originally posted by hagr182 Thanks Jim, My first questions I guess are: 1. Is there enough time to both build a base condition and train for my goal race? (expected race date is the second week of march 2017). 2. If so, are there any programs for building this base? can I fit both programs within the year and 2 or so months left till race day? 3. Any advice is really appreciated. Kind regards!

You have plenty of time before March 2017 to get ready.  There really isn't a need to distinguish building your bike fitness and training for your race in 2017...its all part of your long term program.  I'm not one of those coaches that says you "start" your Ironman training x weeks out from race date.  So does that mean the training you do x+y weeks out isn't preparing you for your Ironman?     Its all training...you just incorporate more race-specific workouts as the race date approaches.  As I mentioned in a previous post, the 16 week winter cycling plan here on BT is a great place to start.  You don't need a power meter to do the plan, which can be done using only heart rate.  You can gradually build up your longer rides this summer and also enter a few races to keep the interest up.

2016-01-28 7:14 AM
in reply to: Birkierunner

User image


240
10010025
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)
I don't normally do this but just read a great book that I wanted to pass on to you all. The Power of Habit. It was eyeopening for me. Explains why we do many of the things we do without thinking. All our good and bad habits and how the brain can be trained to override with new ones. Cannot recommend enough.


2016-01-28 7:19 AM
in reply to: StevenC

User image


18

West Des Moines, Iowa
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)

Originally posted by StevenC I don't normally do this but just read a great book that I wanted to pass on to you all. The Power of Habit. It was eyeopening for me. Explains why we do many of the things we do without thinking. All our good and bad habits and how the brain can be trained to override with new ones. Cannot recommend enough.

 

Thanks for the recommendation. I've really gotten into audio books while I run...makes the treadmill sessions and really long runs much more enjoyable. I'll add this one to the list. 

 

it's a little cheesy, but I recommend "You Are an Ironman"...especially if you're training for one. The story is pretty good and focuses on age groups competing in IM AZ in 2009. Great motivator for those of us new to the sport. 

2016-01-28 11:11 AM
in reply to: Wingspan

User image

Pro
4675
20002000500100252525
Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)

Last year I ended up keeping my mentor group open and never closed it.  I likely will do the same this year, so I just wanted to let folks know that they don't have to wait until the group "closes" before diving into questions.

2016-01-28 11:55 AM
in reply to: Wingspan


98
252525
, Idaho
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)
Originally posted by Wingspan

Originally posted by StevenC I don't normally do this but just read a great book that I wanted to pass on to you all. The Power of Habit. It was eyeopening for me. Explains why we do many of the things we do without thinking. All our good and bad habits and how the brain can be trained to override with new ones. Cannot recommend enough.

 

Thanks for the recommendation. I've really gotten into audio books while I run...makes the treadmill sessions and really long runs much more enjoyable. I'll add this one to the list. 

 

it's a little cheesy, but I recommend "You Are an Ironman"...especially if you're training for one. The story is pretty good and focuses on age groups competing in IM AZ in 2009. Great motivator for those of us new to the sport. 



I'm always looking for good books too. Thanks Steven and Tim.
2016-01-28 6:16 PM
in reply to: Wingspan

User image


240
10010025
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)
Originally posted by Wingspan

Originally posted by StevenC I don't normally do this but just read a great book that I wanted to pass on to you all. The Power of Habit. It was eyeopening for me. Explains why we do many of the things we do without thinking. All our good and bad habits and how the brain can be trained to override with new ones. Cannot recommend enough.

 

Thanks for the recommendation. I've really gotten into audio books while I run...makes the treadmill sessions and really long runs much more enjoyable. I'll add this one to the list. 

 

it's a little cheesy, but I recommend "You Are an Ironman"...especially if you're training for one. The story is pretty good and focuses on age groups competing in IM AZ in 2009. Great motivator for those of us new to the sport. 




Thanks. Wife got me that one for Christmas. About halfway done with it.
2016-01-29 8:44 AM
in reply to: Birkierunner

User image


240
10010025
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)
What's everyone have on tap for the weekend?? Going up to mountains with my son's cub scout pack. Will get a couple runs in but that will be it. Been in NYC this week and got to enjoy the cooler weather and runs in CP, which is always nice.


2016-01-29 9:28 AM
in reply to: StevenC

User image

Extreme Veteran
1574
10005002525
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)
I'm working nights right now 6P - 6A, and work this weekend. I plan on getting in a 3 mile run tomorrow morning and a 15-20 mile ride Sunday morning. I try to knock out my workouts when I get home before going to bed.
2016-01-29 9:30 AM
in reply to: Hunting Triathlete

User image


18

West Des Moines, Iowa
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)

I'll be on the trainer tonight and tomorrow (Iowa State games make great trainer entertainment), planning on a 5 mile run tomorrow morning and some pool time on Sunday before heading to the rock climbing gym for a couple hours. 

2016-01-29 11:05 AM
in reply to: StevenC


98
252525
, Idaho
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)
Swim and run today. Tomorrow is 3 hr ride. Sunday is off.
2016-01-29 12:21 PM
in reply to: d.wilk

User image

Pro
4675
20002000500100252525
Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)

Heading up to the Birkie Trail to ski 40km this afternoon.  More skiing this weekend.  I have a 50k xc ski race at the end of Feb I need to get ready for.

 

2016-01-29 5:57 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Expert
727
50010010025
South Windsor CT
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)
Projected 50+ degree temps here in CT on Monday. Plan on heading out for 45 miles on the bike. Gonna take full advantage of the warm weather!!!



Edited by CarlG 2016-01-29 5:58 PM


2016-02-02 11:53 AM
in reply to: CarlG

User image


114
100
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)
I think im starting to get shin splits. Any ideas for remedy but still have the ability to run?
2016-02-02 1:03 PM
in reply to: slides

User image


18

West Des Moines, Iowa
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)

Originally posted by slides I think im starting to get shin splits. Any ideas for remedy but still have the ability to run?

 

Ice...lots of ice. 

I've used compression sleeves with good success...they seem to keep the muscles from separating too far from the bone while I run, which allows me to keep running through the shin splints. Might be snake oil...but it worked for my half marathon last fall.

Some good runner friends also recommended a softer shoe and making sure to rotate through a couple different pairs of shoes while training. Haven't experimented too much here, but thought I'd pass the advice along. 

2016-02-02 3:30 PM
in reply to: 0


98
252525
, Idaho
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)
Originally posted by Wingspan

Originally posted by slides I think im starting to get shin splits. Any ideas for remedy but still have the ability to run?

 

Ice...lots of ice. 

I've used compression sleeves with good success...they seem to keep the muscles from separating too far from the bone while I run, which allows me to keep running through the shin splints. Might be snake oil...but it worked for my half marathon last fall.

Some good runner friends also recommended a softer shoe and making sure to rotate through a couple different pairs of shoes while training. Haven't experimented too much here, but thought I'd pass the advice along. 



Might also need to cut back a bit and add a dreaded day or two of DOING NOTHING (I know that doesn't answer your question).

I haven't had shin splits in years, but when I did I was close enough to a half mary that I didn't have room to rest...so I would sit on my shins, ankles, and heels (with the bottom of my feet facing upwards) and stretch them like crazy (and really push hard on my shins) before and after runs...seemed to provide some relief.

Have you considered deep water running? It's a good substitute for running while you are dealing with injuries/pain. It can help you maintain fitness.

Hope you can figure it out fast!
-Dan

Edited by d.wilk 2016-02-02 3:32 PM
2016-02-02 7:00 PM
in reply to: #5157537

User image


114
100
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Subject: RE: Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN)
Last year I kept getting shin pain even got x-rays and the doctor though he saw bone swelling. So took some time off and did a big run 1x every week or two weeks that seems to keep the pain at bay. I haven't even been running hard only a max of 2 miles per a run 2-3x a week for the last 4 weeks. I will try Icying and stretch like crazy to see if that helps. I have 28 weeks of training left so this is a bad time to get set back.
New Thread
BT Development Mentor Program Archives » Jim Kelley's (aka Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN) Rss Feed  
 
 
of 8
 
 
RELATED POSTS

Mentor Training by An Elite Triathlete for Draft legal/Age group t(Spr/Oly)

Started by younguntriguy
Views: 910 Posts: 1

2015-01-05 2:19 PM younguntriguy

Successful Triathlon Training, by Fred D - OPEN

Started by Fred D
Views: 1081 Posts: 2

2015-01-21 6:28 AM juanjaramillo

Baowolf's fun in the sun Mentor Group (Open)

Started by Baowolf
Views: 65 Posts: 1

2014-05-18 1:30 AM Baowolf

Baowolf's fun in the sun Mentor Group

Started by Baowolf
Views: 26 Posts: 1

2014-05-18 12:48 AM Baowolf

Playmobil31's Group - Open

Started by playmobil31
Views: 65 Posts: 1

2011-12-18 3:37 PM playmobil31