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2016-12-09 8:21 AM

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Subject: Flag Burning
Been some talk about criminalizing flag burning. Opponents say that is would be unconstitutional....a violation of free speech or freedom of expression.

In my opinion, it should be illegal. It is like trying to incite a riot. It's like when riots start yelling "Kill the cops, kill the cops....." They need to be take out and charge with inciting riot.

I find it interesting that you don't see flag burning in my neck of the woods. Too many rednecks who would simply not allow it.

If we can decide some crimes are 'hate crimes' than we ought to be able to designate flag burning as inciting a riot.


2016-12-09 9:36 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Flag Burning

Originally posted by Rogillio Been some talk about criminalizing flag burning. Opponents say that is would be unconstitutional....a violation of free speech or freedom of expression. In my opinion, it should be illegal. It is like trying to incite a riot. It's like when riots start yelling "Kill the cops, kill the cops....." They need to be take out and charge with inciting riot. I find it interesting that you don't see flag burning in my neck of the woods. Too many rednecks who would simply not allow it. If we can decide some crimes are 'hate crimes' than we ought to be able to designate flag burning as inciting a riot.

why would it be illegal?  It doesn't harm anyone else.  I understand its effed up...but I would rather have someone burning a flag than rioting in the streets.  Now if they are burning a flag in the streets why don't we pop them for attempted arson or something?

2016-12-09 9:44 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Flag Burning

I'm honestly mixed on the whole subject.  I do believe it constitutes free speech and should be protected no matter how vile it is.  However, as a US Veteran I personally elevate the flag to a status of representing this great nation that I fought for and have had many fellow soldiers, seaman, and airmen die for.  It's so much more than just a flag, it represents so much more to so many people.  It's basically the most insulting thing a person can do IMHO, so I detest it like you can never imagine.

I truly don't have a problem if they do make it illegal, but I also understand the argument for it to remain protected.  So, I'm officially on the fence. :-/

2016-12-09 10:02 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Flag Burning
Originally posted by tuwood

I'm honestly mixed on the whole subject.  I do believe it constitutes free speech and should be protected no matter how vile it is.  However, as a US Veteran I personally elevate the flag to a status of representing this great nation that I fought for and have had many fellow soldiers, seaman, and airmen die for.  It's so much more than just a flag, it represents so much more to so many people.  It's basically the most insulting thing a person can do IMHO, so I detest it like you can never imagine.

I truly don't have a problem if they do make it illegal, but I also understand the argument for it to remain protected.  So, I'm officially on the fence. :-/




Society should decide. Just like society decides what is vulgar speech. We don't want to hear the F word or the N word or the C word etc on public TV or the radio. So there are boundaries on free speech. We regulate prostitution and gambling and libel and slander and public nudity......

In my opinion, the flag burning done specifically to be offensive.

But the main argument I'd make is make it illegal to protect the demonstrators from guys like me who just might lose my head, overreact and hit them in the head with a baseball bat. If a father or mother just lost their child off fighting a war and sees you burning the flag, they might just pull out a gun and shoot you....and you'd have a hard time finding a jury finding them guilty of anything but maybe involuntary manslaughter.

Some times the government needs to pass laws to protect people from themselves. That is why heroine is illegal.
2016-12-09 10:05 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Flag Burning

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by tuwood

I'm honestly mixed on the whole subject.  I do believe it constitutes free speech and should be protected no matter how vile it is.  However, as a US Veteran I personally elevate the flag to a status of representing this great nation that I fought for and have had many fellow soldiers, seaman, and airmen die for.  It's so much more than just a flag, it represents so much more to so many people.  It's basically the most insulting thing a person can do IMHO, so I detest it like you can never imagine.

I truly don't have a problem if they do make it illegal, but I also understand the argument for it to remain protected.  So, I'm officially on the fence. :-/

Society should decide. Just like society decides what is vulgar speech. We don't want to hear the F word or the N word or the C word etc on public TV or the radio. So there are boundaries on free speech. We regulate prostitution and gambling and libel and slander and public nudity...... In my opinion, the flag burning done specifically to be offensive. But the main argument I'd make is make it illegal to protect the demonstrators from guys like me who just might lose my head, overreact and hit them in the head with a baseball bat. If a father or mother just lost their child off fighting a war and sees you burning the flag, they might just pull out a gun and shoot you....and you'd have a hard time finding a jury finding them guilty of anything but maybe involuntary manslaughter. Some times the government needs to pass laws to protect people from themselves. That is why heroine is illegal.

I agree where you're coming from, but you do have to be a little careful with mob rule laws.  We have constitutional rights and we cannot pass any law that violates the constitution no matter if 99% of the people support it.  We have to change the constitution first and then enact laws that don't violate the new constitution.

2016-12-09 10:21 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Flag Burning
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by tuwood

I'm honestly mixed on the whole subject.  I do believe it constitutes free speech and should be protected no matter how vile it is.  However, as a US Veteran I personally elevate the flag to a status of representing this great nation that I fought for and have had many fellow soldiers, seaman, and airmen die for.  It's so much more than just a flag, it represents so much more to so many people.  It's basically the most insulting thing a person can do IMHO, so I detest it like you can never imagine.

I truly don't have a problem if they do make it illegal, but I also understand the argument for it to remain protected.  So, I'm officially on the fence. :-/

Society should decide. Just like society decides what is vulgar speech. We don't want to hear the F word or the N word or the C word etc on public TV or the radio. So there are boundaries on free speech. We regulate prostitution and gambling and libel and slander and public nudity...... In my opinion, the flag burning done specifically to be offensive. But the main argument I'd make is make it illegal to protect the demonstrators from guys like me who just might lose my head, overreact and hit them in the head with a baseball bat. If a father or mother just lost their child off fighting a war and sees you burning the flag, they might just pull out a gun and shoot you....and you'd have a hard time finding a jury finding them guilty of anything but maybe involuntary manslaughter. Some times the government needs to pass laws to protect people from themselves. That is why heroine is illegal.

I agree where you're coming from, but you do have to be a little careful with mob rule laws.  We have constitutional rights and we cannot pass any law that violates the constitution no matter if 99% of the people support it.  We have to change the constitution first and then enact laws that don't violate the new constitution.




Inciting a riot is illegal.

If you drew cartoons of the prophet Mohammad having sex with children and passed them out in front of the masque you'd likely get arrested. If you put on a KKK hood and walked thru Detroit's inner city you'd probably get picked up by the cops and taken to mental hospital.



2016-12-09 10:25 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Flag Burning

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by tuwood

I'm honestly mixed on the whole subject.  I do believe it constitutes free speech and should be protected no matter how vile it is.  However, as a US Veteran I personally elevate the flag to a status of representing this great nation that I fought for and have had many fellow soldiers, seaman, and airmen die for.  It's so much more than just a flag, it represents so much more to so many people.  It's basically the most insulting thing a person can do IMHO, so I detest it like you can never imagine.

I truly don't have a problem if they do make it illegal, but I also understand the argument for it to remain protected.  So, I'm officially on the fence. :-/

Society should decide. Just like society decides what is vulgar speech. We don't want to hear the F word or the N word or the C word etc on public TV or the radio. So there are boundaries on free speech. We regulate prostitution and gambling and libel and slander and public nudity...... In my opinion, the flag burning done specifically to be offensive. But the main argument I'd make is make it illegal to protect the demonstrators from guys like me who just might lose my head, overreact and hit them in the head with a baseball bat. If a father or mother just lost their child off fighting a war and sees you burning the flag, they might just pull out a gun and shoot you....and you'd have a hard time finding a jury finding them guilty of anything but maybe involuntary manslaughter. Some times the government needs to pass laws to protect people from themselves. That is why heroine is illegal.

I agree where you're coming from, but you do have to be a little careful with mob rule laws.  We have constitutional rights and we cannot pass any law that violates the constitution no matter if 99% of the people support it.  We have to change the constitution first and then enact laws that don't violate the new constitution.

Inciting a riot is illegal. If you drew cartoons of the prophet Mohammad having sex with children and passed them out in front of the masque you'd likely get arrested. If you put on a KKK hood and walked thru Detroit's inner city you'd probably get picked up by the cops and taken to mental hospital.

right but if you did those things and posted them on youtube you wouldn't get arrested.

2016-12-09 10:27 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Flag Burning
Originally posted by tuwood

I'm honestly mixed on the whole subject.  I do believe it constitutes free speech and should be protected no matter how vile it is.  However, as a US Veteran I personally elevate the flag to a status of representing this great nation that I fought for and have had many fellow soldiers, seaman, and airmen die for.  It's so much more than just a flag, it represents so much more to so many people.  It's basically the most insulting thing a person can do IMHO, so I detest it like you can never imagine.

I truly don't have a problem if they do make it illegal, but I also understand the argument for it to remain protected.  So, I'm officially on the fence. :-/



I'd argue that the right to free speech is one of the things you and your fellow servicemen fought and which some died for. To deny others' free speech just because you disagree with their pov or the way they express themselves wastes the sacrifice who died defending the Constitution.

I think it's disgraceful, and I'd never do it, but I would never suggest that it should be illegal. If networks don't want to show it because it offends their viewers, that's up to them, but there's a big difference between, "you can't say X on TV" and "If you say X, you'll go to jail".

If burning a flag is illegal, why shouldn't it be illegal to march in support of white supremacy or behind a neo-Nazi flag? Why shouldn't it be illegal to burn or desecrate an effigy of the president? Maybe we should go after journalists who draw offensive cartoons that we don't like?

And you wonder why people say, "The only part of the Constitution that conservatives care about is the Second Amendment."

I don't think people "need" to have high capacity magazines, but the 2A says what it says, and that's that. You may not think people should get to protest in certain ways, but as long as their not infringing upon the rights of others, or damaging property that's not theirs, you should support their right to free speech just as strongly as you support your own RTBA.



2016-12-09 10:28 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Flag Burning

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by tuwood

I'm honestly mixed on the whole subject.  I do believe it constitutes free speech and should be protected no matter how vile it is.  However, as a US Veteran I personally elevate the flag to a status of representing this great nation that I fought for and have had many fellow soldiers, seaman, and airmen die for.  It's so much more than just a flag, it represents so much more to so many people.  It's basically the most insulting thing a person can do IMHO, so I detest it like you can never imagine.

I truly don't have a problem if they do make it illegal, but I also understand the argument for it to remain protected.  So, I'm officially on the fence. :-/

Society should decide. Just like society decides what is vulgar speech. We don't want to hear the F word or the N word or the C word etc on public TV or the radio. So there are boundaries on free speech. We regulate prostitution and gambling and libel and slander and public nudity...... In my opinion, the flag burning done specifically to be offensive. But the main argument I'd make is make it illegal to protect the demonstrators from guys like me who just might lose my head, overreact and hit them in the head with a baseball bat. If a father or mother just lost their child off fighting a war and sees you burning the flag, they might just pull out a gun and shoot you....and you'd have a hard time finding a jury finding them guilty of anything but maybe involuntary manslaughter. Some times the government needs to pass laws to protect people from themselves. That is why heroine is illegal.

I agree where you're coming from, but you do have to be a little careful with mob rule laws.  We have constitutional rights and we cannot pass any law that violates the constitution no matter if 99% of the people support it.  We have to change the constitution first and then enact laws that don't violate the new constitution.

Inciting a riot is illegal. If you drew cartoons of the prophet Mohammad having sex with children and passed them out in front of the masque you'd likely get arrested. If you put on a KKK hood and walked thru Detroit's inner city you'd probably get picked up by the cops and taken to mental hospital.

right but if you did those things and posted them on youtube you wouldn't get arrested.

Agree, those are both dumb things to do and will likely find yourself getting hurt or worse but people can legally do dumb stuff.
I am not a lawyer by any means, but I believe the inciting a riot laws are along the lines of "hey, dmiller lets go get a bunch of people together and toss some cars in front of the mosque".  That would be us inciting a riot. 

2016-12-09 11:19 AM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

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Subject: RE: Flag Burning
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

I'm honestly mixed on the whole subject.  I do believe it constitutes free speech and should be protected no matter how vile it is.  However, as a US Veteran I personally elevate the flag to a status of representing this great nation that I fought for and have had many fellow soldiers, seaman, and airmen die for.  It's so much more than just a flag, it represents so much more to so many people.  It's basically the most insulting thing a person can do IMHO, so I detest it like you can never imagine.

I truly don't have a problem if they do make it illegal, but I also understand the argument for it to remain protected.  So, I'm officially on the fence. :-/



I'd argue that the right to free speech is one of the things you and your fellow servicemen fought and which some died for. To deny others' free speech just because you disagree with their pov or the way they express themselves wastes the sacrifice who died defending the Constitution.

I think it's disgraceful, and I'd never do it, but I would never suggest that it should be illegal. If networks don't want to show it because it offends their viewers, that's up to them, but there's a big difference between, "you can't say X on TV" and "If you say X, you'll go to jail".

If burning a flag is illegal, why shouldn't it be illegal to march in support of white supremacy or behind a neo-Nazi flag? Why shouldn't it be illegal to burn or desecrate an effigy of the president? Maybe we should go after journalists who draw offensive cartoons that we don't like?

And you wonder why people say, "The only part of the Constitution that conservatives care about is the Second Amendment."

I don't think people "need" to have high capacity magazines, but the 2A says what it says, and that's that. You may not think people should get to protest in certain ways, but as long as their not infringing upon the rights of others, or damaging property that's not theirs, you should support their right to free speech just as strongly as you support your own RTBA.






Yeah, I'm trying real hard to see it this way.....and I guess I'm ok with it being legal. But I also accept that people can get very emotional about the flag and are liable to administer their own vigilante justice. If someone is burning a flag and they get the beaten up, I'd say it was justified. I might get charged with assault but my defense would be 'I have very strong feelings of God and Country and my emotions got the better of me'.
2016-12-09 11:35 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Maryland
Subject: RE: Flag Burning

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by tuwood

I'm honestly mixed on the whole subject.  I do believe it constitutes free speech and should be protected no matter how vile it is.  However, as a US Veteran I personally elevate the flag to a status of representing this great nation that I fought for and have had many fellow soldiers, seaman, and airmen die for.  It's so much more than just a flag, it represents so much more to so many people.  It's basically the most insulting thing a person can do IMHO, so I detest it like you can never imagine.

I truly don't have a problem if they do make it illegal, but I also understand the argument for it to remain protected.  So, I'm officially on the fence. :-/

I'd argue that the right to free speech is one of the things you and your fellow servicemen fought and which some died for. To deny others' free speech just because you disagree with their pov or the way they express themselves wastes the sacrifice who died defending the Constitution. I think it's disgraceful, and I'd never do it, but I would never suggest that it should be illegal. If networks don't want to show it because it offends their viewers, that's up to them, but there's a big difference between, "you can't say X on TV" and "If you say X, you'll go to jail". If burning a flag is illegal, why shouldn't it be illegal to march in support of white supremacy or behind a neo-Nazi flag? Why shouldn't it be illegal to burn or desecrate an effigy of the president? Maybe we should go after journalists who draw offensive cartoons that we don't like? And you wonder why people say, "The only part of the Constitution that conservatives care about is the Second Amendment." I don't think people "need" to have high capacity magazines, but the 2A says what it says, and that's that. You may not think people should get to protest in certain ways, but as long as their not infringing upon the rights of others, or damaging property that's not theirs, you should support their right to free speech just as strongly as you support your own RTBA.
Yeah, I'm trying real hard to see it this way.....and I guess I'm ok with it being legal. But I also accept that people can get very emotional about the flag and are liable to administer their own vigilante justice. If someone is burning a flag and they get the beaten up, I'd say it was justified. I might get charged with assault but my defense would be 'I have very strong feelings of God and Country and my emotions got the better of me'.

you are still responsible for your actions.  Just like if I draw Mohammed a Muslim isn't justified to shoot me.



2016-12-09 11:44 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Omaha, NE
Subject: RE: Flag Burning

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by tuwood

I'm honestly mixed on the whole subject.  I do believe it constitutes free speech and should be protected no matter how vile it is.  However, as a US Veteran I personally elevate the flag to a status of representing this great nation that I fought for and have had many fellow soldiers, seaman, and airmen die for.  It's so much more than just a flag, it represents so much more to so many people.  It's basically the most insulting thing a person can do IMHO, so I detest it like you can never imagine.

I truly don't have a problem if they do make it illegal, but I also understand the argument for it to remain protected.  So, I'm officially on the fence. :-/

I'd argue that the right to free speech is one of the things you and your fellow servicemen fought and which some died for. To deny others' free speech just because you disagree with their pov or the way they express themselves wastes the sacrifice who died defending the Constitution. I think it's disgraceful, and I'd never do it, but I would never suggest that it should be illegal. If networks don't want to show it because it offends their viewers, that's up to them, but there's a big difference between, "you can't say X on TV" and "If you say X, you'll go to jail". If burning a flag is illegal, why shouldn't it be illegal to march in support of white supremacy or behind a neo-Nazi flag? Why shouldn't it be illegal to burn or desecrate an effigy of the president? Maybe we should go after journalists who draw offensive cartoons that we don't like? And you wonder why people say, "The only part of the Constitution that conservatives care about is the Second Amendment." I don't think people "need" to have high capacity magazines, but the 2A says what it says, and that's that. You may not think people should get to protest in certain ways, but as long as their not infringing upon the rights of others, or damaging property that's not theirs, you should support their right to free speech just as strongly as you support your own RTBA.
Yeah, I'm trying real hard to see it this way.....and I guess I'm ok with it being legal. But I also accept that people can get very emotional about the flag and are liable to administer their own vigilante justice. If someone is burning a flag and they get the beaten up, I'd say it was justified. I might get charged with assault but my defense would be 'I have very strong feelings of God and Country and my emotions got the better of me'.

It's kind of analogous to the provocative clothing argument.  If a woman dresses a certain way, she could be exposing herself to a sexual assault.  I think we both agree in that situation that it's not about the woman, it's about the person committing a crime and assaulting her.
It would be no different than somebody physically assaulting somebody who was doing a provocative act such as burning the flag or drawing religious cartoons.

btw, good thoughts JMK and it's hard for me to argue with any of it.  I wholly admit that my only opposition is emotion based and has nothing to do with the law.  From a legal standpoint I agree with you 100%.

2016-12-09 12:09 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Champion
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Alabama
Subject: RE: Flag Burning
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by tuwood

I'm honestly mixed on the whole subject.  I do believe it constitutes free speech and should be protected no matter how vile it is.  However, as a US Veteran I personally elevate the flag to a status of representing this great nation that I fought for and have had many fellow soldiers, seaman, and airmen die for.  It's so much more than just a flag, it represents so much more to so many people.  It's basically the most insulting thing a person can do IMHO, so I detest it like you can never imagine.

I truly don't have a problem if they do make it illegal, but I also understand the argument for it to remain protected.  So, I'm officially on the fence. :-/

I'd argue that the right to free speech is one of the things you and your fellow servicemen fought and which some died for. To deny others' free speech just because you disagree with their pov or the way they express themselves wastes the sacrifice who died defending the Constitution. I think it's disgraceful, and I'd never do it, but I would never suggest that it should be illegal. If networks don't want to show it because it offends their viewers, that's up to them, but there's a big difference between, "you can't say X on TV" and "If you say X, you'll go to jail". If burning a flag is illegal, why shouldn't it be illegal to march in support of white supremacy or behind a neo-Nazi flag? Why shouldn't it be illegal to burn or desecrate an effigy of the president? Maybe we should go after journalists who draw offensive cartoons that we don't like? And you wonder why people say, "The only part of the Constitution that conservatives care about is the Second Amendment." I don't think people "need" to have high capacity magazines, but the 2A says what it says, and that's that. You may not think people should get to protest in certain ways, but as long as their not infringing upon the rights of others, or damaging property that's not theirs, you should support their right to free speech just as strongly as you support your own RTBA.
Yeah, I'm trying real hard to see it this way.....and I guess I'm ok with it being legal. But I also accept that people can get very emotional about the flag and are liable to administer their own vigilante justice. If someone is burning a flag and they get the beaten up, I'd say it was justified. I might get charged with assault but my defense would be 'I have very strong feelings of God and Country and my emotions got the better of me'.

you are still responsible for your actions.  Just like if I draw Mohammed a Muslim isn't justified to shoot me.




In Alabama, "He deserved killin'" is actually a legitimate defense in a court of law. :-)

I say that in jest but courts do recognize 'crimes of passion' and tend to give them a little leeway. Not saying it would get you off the hook if you were to kill or seriously injury someone.....but it you are burning a flag and a vet with a prostatic arm knocks with it, you might have a hard time finding a jury to convict him.....or even a DA to prosecute him.

There is also the constitutional fix and that is to amend the constitution in such as way as to specifically protect the flag.

With the GOP controlling 33 States now the time is ripe for constitutional amendments.
2016-12-09 12:20 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Flag Burning

yes, we must protect our constitution they say! until they have power and want to change it....

 

2016-12-09 12:35 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Flag Burning
Originally posted by dmiller5

yes, we must protect our constitution they say! until they have power and want to change it....

 




That's how it is designed to work. I might add, that there was no freedom of speech in the constitution until it was amended to add it.
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