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2017-01-25 12:30 PM

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Subject: Trump steeling (sic) unions!
I think Trump is gaining thousands if not millions of supporters by declaring the two pipelines and new bridges and infrastructure use US steel.


2017-01-25 2:08 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Originally posted by Rogillio I think Trump is gaining thousands if not millions of supporters by declaring the two pipelines and new bridges and infrastructure use US steel.

The pipeline deal is a little unique, since (as I understand it) he'll forcing a private company who's using private funds to purchase made in America steel. If he can do it, good for him. But it's already a requirement for all bridges, highways, and rail projects. Reagan signed the Buy America act in to law in 1982, and Obama really upped the enforcement of it when he pushed out the ARRA stimulus projects. The only reason it will be a story in the future is that Paul Ryan opposes Buy America and tried to strip it out of the latest waterways bill. He thinks it's bad for the free market. Trump is going to have to get Ryan in check. http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/314304-trump-house-gop-could-clash-over-buy-america

2017-01-25 2:23 PM
in reply to: Bob Loblaw

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!
Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by Rogillio I think Trump is gaining thousands if not millions of supporters by declaring the two pipelines and new bridges and infrastructure use US steel.

The pipeline deal is a little unique, since (as I understand it) he'll forcing a private company who's using private funds to purchase made in America steel. If he can do it, good for him. But it's already a requirement for all bridges, highways, and rail projects. Reagan signed the Buy America act in to law in 1982, and Obama really upped the enforcement of it when he pushed out the ARRA stimulus projects. The only reason it will be a story in the future is that Paul Ryan opposes Buy America and tried to strip it out of the latest waterways bill. He thinks it's bad for the free market. Trump is going to have to get Ryan in check. http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/314304-trump-house-gop-could-clash-over-buy-america




Why do you say that is private funds? The contractor would be buying materials with government money.

Or the contract can be written such that the government buys the steel and provides it to the contractor as GFE as government furnished equipment. Happens all the time.

Was not aware of that Ryan opposes that. There may have been a time when I believe that way too.....ie that the more competition, the better. But I don't buy that any more. I made a decision years ago that I would only drive American cars. I know people argue that many of Ford and GM parts are made overseas and a few foreign cars are made in the US...but I don't care. I still want American branded cars. My immediate family owns 5 Fords...and two 1926 Dodge Brothers Coupes....and one Harley Davidson motorcycle.
2017-01-25 2:36 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by Rogillio I think Trump is gaining thousands if not millions of supporters by declaring the two pipelines and new bridges and infrastructure use US steel.

The pipeline deal is a little unique, since (as I understand it) he'll forcing a private company who's using private funds to purchase made in America steel. If he can do it, good for him. But it's already a requirement for all bridges, highways, and rail projects. Reagan signed the Buy America act in to law in 1982, and Obama really upped the enforcement of it when he pushed out the ARRA stimulus projects. The only reason it will be a story in the future is that Paul Ryan opposes Buy America and tried to strip it out of the latest waterways bill. He thinks it's bad for the free market. Trump is going to have to get Ryan in check. http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/314304-trump-house-gop-could-clash-over-buy-america

Why do you say that is private funds? The contractor would be buying materials with government money. Or the contract can be written such that the government buys the steel and provides it to the contractor as GFE as government furnished equipment. Happens all the time. Was not aware of that Ryan opposes that. There may have been a time when I believe that way too.....ie that the more competition, the better. But I don't buy that any more. I made a decision years ago that I would only drive American cars. I know people argue that many of Ford and GM parts are made overseas and a few foreign cars are made in the US...but I don't care. I still want American branded cars. My immediate family owns 5 Fords...and two 1926 Dodge Brothers Coupes....and one Harley Davidson motorcycle.
TransCanada is a publicly traded company in both the US and Canada.  Keystone XL Pipeline is a private endeavor, not a government contract.

2017-01-25 2:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!
Originally posted by Hook'em

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by Rogillio I think Trump is gaining thousands if not millions of supporters by declaring the two pipelines and new bridges and infrastructure use US steel.

The pipeline deal is a little unique, since (as I understand it) he'll forcing a private company who's using private funds to purchase made in America steel. If he can do it, good for him. But it's already a requirement for all bridges, highways, and rail projects. Reagan signed the Buy America act in to law in 1982, and Obama really upped the enforcement of it when he pushed out the ARRA stimulus projects. The only reason it will be a story in the future is that Paul Ryan opposes Buy America and tried to strip it out of the latest waterways bill. He thinks it's bad for the free market. Trump is going to have to get Ryan in check. http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/314304-trump-house-gop-could-clash-over-buy-america

Why do you say that is private funds? The contractor would be buying materials with government money. Or the contract can be written such that the government buys the steel and provides it to the contractor as GFE as government furnished equipment. Happens all the time. Was not aware of that Ryan opposes that. There may have been a time when I believe that way too.....ie that the more competition, the better. But I don't buy that any more. I made a decision years ago that I would only drive American cars. I know people argue that many of Ford and GM parts are made overseas and a few foreign cars are made in the US...but I don't care. I still want American branded cars. My immediate family owns 5 Fords...and two 1926 Dodge Brothers Coupes....and one Harley Davidson motorcycle.
TransCanada is a publicly traded company in both the US and Canada.  Keystone XL Pipeline is a private endeavor, not a government contract.




Oh, I see. But they are going across America so maybe they can make that part of the agreement to allow them to do so. i.e. what's in it for us? Worst case the US could subsidize the steel so they can get it at the same price they could on the open market.

And before anyone says that is not fair trade.....other counties do it all the time. Ever wonder where Air Bus came from and how they came to be competitive with Boeing? The EEU subsidized them till the go big/strong enough. Some say they still subsidize them.





Edited by Rogillio 2017-01-25 2:42 PM
2017-01-25 3:08 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by Hook'em

Originally posted by Rogillio
Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by Rogillio I think Trump is gaining thousands if not millions of supporters by declaring the two pipelines and new bridges and infrastructure use US steel.

The pipeline deal is a little unique, since (as I understand it) he'll forcing a private company who's using private funds to purchase made in America steel. If he can do it, good for him. But it's already a requirement for all bridges, highways, and rail projects. Reagan signed the Buy America act in to law in 1982, and Obama really upped the enforcement of it when he pushed out the ARRA stimulus projects. The only reason it will be a story in the future is that Paul Ryan opposes Buy America and tried to strip it out of the latest waterways bill. He thinks it's bad for the free market. Trump is going to have to get Ryan in check. http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/314304-trump-house-gop-could-clash-over-buy-america

Why do you say that is private funds? The contractor would be buying materials with government money. Or the contract can be written such that the government buys the steel and provides it to the contractor as GFE as government furnished equipment. Happens all the time. Was not aware of that Ryan opposes that. There may have been a time when I believe that way too.....ie that the more competition, the better. But I don't buy that any more. I made a decision years ago that I would only drive American cars. I know people argue that many of Ford and GM parts are made overseas and a few foreign cars are made in the US...but I don't care. I still want American branded cars. My immediate family owns 5 Fords...and two 1926 Dodge Brothers Coupes....and one Harley Davidson motorcycle.
TransCanada is a publicly traded company in both the US and Canada.  Keystone XL Pipeline is a private endeavor, not a government contract.

Oh, I see. But they are going across America so maybe they can make that part of the agreement to allow them to do so. i.e. what's in it for us? Worst case the US could subsidize the steel so they can get it at the same price they could on the open market.

What's in it for us?  All of the arguments that were lobbied at the Obama administration are still valid.  Construction jobs across several states from the Canadian boarder to Nebraska.  Property taxes along the pipeline route.  Increased work refining Canadian crude oil in US based refineries. 

 

 

 

 



2017-01-25 3:24 PM
in reply to: Hook'em

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Why are we in such a hurry to export our oil?

2017-01-25 3:36 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Originally posted by dmiller5

Why are we in such a hurry to export our oil?

Are you Canadian, eh.  Keystone XL will transport oil from Canada to US refineries (refineries that are currently getting a large portion of oil from Venezuela).  

2017-01-25 4:36 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Originally posted by Rogillio I think Trump is gaining thousands if not millions of supporters by declaring the two pipelines and new bridges and infrastructure use US steel.

Some food for thought - The False Promise of "Buy American"

2017-01-25 6:05 PM
in reply to: Hook'em

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!
Originally posted by Hook'em

Originally posted by Rogillio I think Trump is gaining thousands if not millions of supporters by declaring the two pipelines and new bridges and infrastructure use US steel.

Some food for thought - The False Promise of "Buy American"





What that doesn't address is the effect of lower unemployment and increased tax revenue from those taxpayers. Also the trickle down effect. For every xx number of people building cars ther are y number of people working at McDonalds and the Piggly Wiggly......and the taxes they pay,

I know it's not that simple but there is nothing this country can't produce. Personally I will gladly play 20% for a product knowing that it helped employ another American.
2017-01-25 6:48 PM
in reply to: #5211373

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!
Just don't be blinded by rhetoric. Always remember that about 50% of US imports are for intermediate goods - parts of goods which are made into saleable US goods. Trade deficits are not necessarily bad.


2017-01-26 9:37 AM
in reply to: Hook'em

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

I have a few different thoughts on the pipeline overall.

First off, oil is a commodity that increases and decreases globally based on supply and demand, so it doesn't really matter if Canadian oil comes to the US or goes to Russia, it goes into global supply and price is the same. 
That being said there are shipping costs which do get baked in, but overall they're fairly small so I'm not entirely sure how much cheaper a pipeline would be vs. shipping.

Secondly the whole reason we have to import so much oil is because of the ridiculous environmental politics in the US that force oil companies to go to places like the gulf to get our oil.  We have way more oil in the US than they have in the gulf and need to be self sufficient.  If we do that then there's much less need for pipelines and scary oil ships.

Here's a study a few years back from the USGS.  There's many that believe there's far more and other that believe there's far less so just take it as a data point.

2017-01-26 9:42 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

On the union side, I agree completely that the Dem's have completely turned their backs on them.  When Biden rides off into the sunset I'm not sure if there are really any Dem's left that care about the blue collar workers.

It's quite likely the "Blue Wall" has been broken down for at least a generation.

If you think I'm wrong, take a look at the people vying to lead the DNC.  They're all arguing over how racist they can be against white people. 
https://youtu.be/LDOdcsh435Q

That's totally what America cares about... /eyeroll

It's downright funny to watch the implosion. 

 

2017-01-26 10:49 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Tony, the extraction processes for much of that oil is incredibly damaging to the environment. 

2017-01-26 10:50 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!
2017-01-26 10:55 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Originally posted by dmiller5

Tony, the extraction processes for much of that oil is incredibly damaging to the environment. 

That's the old tired argument that's been used (quite successfully) for decades.  We'll see how well it works going forward. 



2017-01-26 10:57 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by dmiller5

Tony, the extraction processes for much of that oil is incredibly damaging to the environment. 

That's the old tired argument that's been used (quite successfully) for decades.  We'll see how well it works going forward. 

Tony, as an environmental PE, I feel as though I *might* have a better understanding of this issue than you do.  The "old tired argument" is incredibly important.  We have done untold damage to our environment and it impacts human health.

2017-01-26 11:03 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by dmiller5

Tony, the extraction processes for much of that oil is incredibly damaging to the environment. 

That's the old tired argument that's been used (quite successfully) for decades.  We'll see how well it works going forward. 

Tony, as an environmental PE, I feel as though I *might* have a better understanding of this issue than you do.  The "old tired argument" is incredibly important.  We have done untold damage to our environment and it impacts human health.

We've done untold damage to our economy and the citizens have decided they want a change. 
I'm being a little snarky, but there has to be a balance between responsible stewardship of the environment and utilization of resources.  The pendulum has swung way to far on the environment side and it is now swinging back.  I'm old enough to remember the nastiness of the late 70s and early 80's with pollution and litter all over the streets.  It was terrible and I'll stand right beside you and fight to make sure it doesn't swing too far back the other way. 

2017-01-26 11:03 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Originally posted by tuwood

On the union side, I agree completely that the Dem's have completely turned their backs on them.  When Biden rides off into the sunset I'm not sure if there are really any Dem's left that care about the blue collar workers.

It's quite likely the "Blue Wall" has been broken down for at least a generation.

If you think I'm wrong, take a look at the people vying to lead the DNC.  They're all arguing over how racist they can be against white people. 
https://youtu.be/LDOdcsh435Q

That's totally what America cares about... /eyeroll

It's downright funny to watch the implosion. 

 

As long as Republicans continue to push for right to work laws, Democrats will keep the support of unions.

2017-01-26 11:08 AM
in reply to: Bob Loblaw

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by tuwood

On the union side, I agree completely that the Dem's have completely turned their backs on them.  When Biden rides off into the sunset I'm not sure if there are really any Dem's left that care about the blue collar workers.

It's quite likely the "Blue Wall" has been broken down for at least a generation.

If you think I'm wrong, take a look at the people vying to lead the DNC.  They're all arguing over how racist they can be against white people. 
https://youtu.be/LDOdcsh435Q

That's totally what America cares about... /eyeroll

It's downright funny to watch the implosion. 

 

As long as Republicans continue to push for right to work laws, Democrats will keep the support of unions.

There's no question there's been a long history of Republicans going at it with Unions, but the Unions have been evolving as well as the Republicans.  Most blue collar workers fit very well into the conservative footprint of social and fiscal conservatism, but the labor laws were enough to keep them away.
Unfortunately the Dem's have done as much or worse to the Unions with the globalization push so the labor law negative doesn't have near the teeth it used to have and these same workers are falling back on the other conservative principles they hold dear.

Obvoiusly they came out in big numbers for Trump and his anti-globalization message.  I will be curious how it translates into other candidates in the future. 

2017-01-26 11:12 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!
Originally posted by tuwood

On the union side, I agree completely that the Dem's have completely turned their backs on them.  



The optics in politics is very important. Trump has major union leaders come to the WH on day 1. That is uge!! The next day he met with a union leader and then met with a local machinist, electrician, plumber, etc. They came to the WH right off their jobs....in blue jeans and work clothes. Brilliant move by Trump. You want to connect with blue collar workers, bring them to the White House!! Can you imagine any other of the Washington elite doing this?

I the press also knows the power of visuals.....they can ramble all want about how Trump is a billionaire and anti-unions.....but when you are looking at a plumber stating in the Oval office you realize, the Oval office is not just for cigar sex with interns.

Oops, sorry, got off in the ditch....


2017-01-26 11:20 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by tuwood

On the union side, I agree completely that the Dem's have completely turned their backs on them.  When Biden rides off into the sunset I'm not sure if there are really any Dem's left that care about the blue collar workers.

It's quite likely the "Blue Wall" has been broken down for at least a generation.

If you think I'm wrong, take a look at the people vying to lead the DNC.  They're all arguing over how racist they can be against white people. 
https://youtu.be/LDOdcsh435Q

That's totally what America cares about... /eyeroll

It's downright funny to watch the implosion. 

 

As long as Republicans continue to push for right to work laws, Democrats will keep the support of unions.

There's no question there's been a long history of Republicans going at it with Unions, but the Unions have been evolving as well as the Republicans.  Most blue collar workers fit very well into the conservative footprint of social and fiscal conservatism, but the labor laws were enough to keep them away.
Unfortunately the Dem's have done as much or worse to the Unions with the globalization push so the labor law negative doesn't have near the teeth it used to have and these same workers are falling back on the other conservative principles they hold dear.

Obvoiusly they came out in big numbers for Trump and his anti-globalization message.  I will be curious how it translates into other candidates in the future. 

Trump might have gotten blue collar support, but he did not get union support. Three unions endorsed him; police, border patrol, and immigration/customs. 42 unions endorsed Hillary. She got the electricians, teamsters, carpenters, laborers, operators, steelworkers, teachers...the list goes on and on.

 

2017-01-26 11:27 AM
in reply to: Bob Loblaw

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by tuwood

On the union side, I agree completely that the Dem's have completely turned their backs on them.  When Biden rides off into the sunset I'm not sure if there are really any Dem's left that care about the blue collar workers.

It's quite likely the "Blue Wall" has been broken down for at least a generation.

If you think I'm wrong, take a look at the people vying to lead the DNC.  They're all arguing over how racist they can be against white people. 
https://youtu.be/LDOdcsh435Q

That's totally what America cares about... /eyeroll

It's downright funny to watch the implosion. 

 

As long as Republicans continue to push for right to work laws, Democrats will keep the support of unions.

There's no question there's been a long history of Republicans going at it with Unions, but the Unions have been evolving as well as the Republicans.  Most blue collar workers fit very well into the conservative footprint of social and fiscal conservatism, but the labor laws were enough to keep them away.
Unfortunately the Dem's have done as much or worse to the Unions with the globalization push so the labor law negative doesn't have near the teeth it used to have and these same workers are falling back on the other conservative principles they hold dear.

Obvoiusly they came out in big numbers for Trump and his anti-globalization message.  I will be curious how it translates into other candidates in the future. 

Trump might have gotten blue collar support, but he did not get union support. Three unions endorsed him; police, border patrol, and immigration/customs. 42 unions endorsed Hillary. She got the electricians, teamsters, carpenters, laborers, operators, steelworkers, teachers...the list goes on and on.

 

She didn't get the rank and file......at least not nearly enough.  You know this.

2017-01-26 11:57 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by tuwood

On the union side, I agree completely that the Dem's have completely turned their backs on them.  When Biden rides off into the sunset I'm not sure if there are really any Dem's left that care about the blue collar workers.

It's quite likely the "Blue Wall" has been broken down for at least a generation.

If you think I'm wrong, take a look at the people vying to lead the DNC.  They're all arguing over how racist they can be against white people. 
https://youtu.be/LDOdcsh435Q

That's totally what America cares about... /eyeroll

It's downright funny to watch the implosion. 

 

As long as Republicans continue to push for right to work laws, Democrats will keep the support of unions.

There's no question there's been a long history of Republicans going at it with Unions, but the Unions have been evolving as well as the Republicans.  Most blue collar workers fit very well into the conservative footprint of social and fiscal conservatism, but the labor laws were enough to keep them away.
Unfortunately the Dem's have done as much or worse to the Unions with the globalization push so the labor law negative doesn't have near the teeth it used to have and these same workers are falling back on the other conservative principles they hold dear.

Obvoiusly they came out in big numbers for Trump and his anti-globalization message.  I will be curious how it translates into other candidates in the future. 

Trump might have gotten blue collar support, but he did not get union support. Three unions endorsed him; police, border patrol, and immigration/customs. 42 unions endorsed Hillary. She got the electricians, teamsters, carpenters, laborers, operators, steelworkers, teachers...the list goes on and on.

 

She didn't get the rank and file......at least not nearly enough.  You know this.

I won't argue that. She lost a lot of traditionally loyal support. What can I say, she wasn't a very good candidate. lol. But Tony said the Dems are losing the unions. That it's likely the blue wall has been broken down for at least a generation. They're not and it isn't. Not as long as right to work laws are part of the GOP platform. 

I can't find exit polling on how union households voted in our governor's race. But I'd be willing to bet a beer that they overwhelming voted against Greitens and his right to work pledge. 

2017-01-26 12:26 PM
in reply to: Bob Loblaw

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Subject: RE: Trump steeling (sic) unions!

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Bob Loblaw

Originally posted by tuwood

On the union side, I agree completely that the Dem's have completely turned their backs on them.  When Biden rides off into the sunset I'm not sure if there are really any Dem's left that care about the blue collar workers.

It's quite likely the "Blue Wall" has been broken down for at least a generation.

If you think I'm wrong, take a look at the people vying to lead the DNC.  They're all arguing over how racist they can be against white people. 
https://youtu.be/LDOdcsh435Q

That's totally what America cares about... /eyeroll

It's downright funny to watch the implosion. 

 

As long as Republicans continue to push for right to work laws, Democrats will keep the support of unions.

There's no question there's been a long history of Republicans going at it with Unions, but the Unions have been evolving as well as the Republicans.  Most blue collar workers fit very well into the conservative footprint of social and fiscal conservatism, but the labor laws were enough to keep them away.
Unfortunately the Dem's have done as much or worse to the Unions with the globalization push so the labor law negative doesn't have near the teeth it used to have and these same workers are falling back on the other conservative principles they hold dear.

Obvoiusly they came out in big numbers for Trump and his anti-globalization message.  I will be curious how it translates into other candidates in the future. 

Trump might have gotten blue collar support, but he did not get union support. Three unions endorsed him; police, border patrol, and immigration/customs. 42 unions endorsed Hillary. She got the electricians, teamsters, carpenters, laborers, operators, steelworkers, teachers...the list goes on and on.

 

She didn't get the rank and file......at least not nearly enough.  You know this.

I won't argue that. She lost a lot of traditionally loyal support. What can I say, she wasn't a very good candidate. lol. But Tony said the Dems are losing the unions. That it's likely the blue wall has been broken down for at least a generation. They're not and it isn't. Not as long as right to work laws are part of the GOP platform. 

I can't find exit polling on how union households voted in our governor's race. But I'd be willing to bet a beer that they overwhelming voted against Greitens and his right to work pledge. 

There's a very distinct difference between Union Leadership and Union Members.  I was referring to Union Members.
I wish we could both find the numbers but I'm not sure if they have a breakdown other than in pre-election polling which we all know wasn't so hot.

I think there's a bit of a populist movement even within the Union organizations because the Union leadership is about as corrupt as the globalist politicians in many cases.  

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