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2022-05-25 7:37 AM

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Subject: Texas school shooting
Once again we have another a-hole killing kids in a school. Naturally all the gun control people are blaming access to guns as the cause of the problem.

I’d like to propose a real solution. Secure the schools like we secure airports. This includes controlled access and armed law enforcement at every school. There are hundreds of thousands of trained retired law enforcement people who could/would do the job. Put up security camera around the perimeter of the school - very cheap to do nowadays. Limit ingress/egress to one or to points, each with metal detectors and guards. Establish 1- 3 full time law enforcement positions with armed and trained guards.

I’d also support allowing certain teachers or custodial workers or staff to be packing. Maybe not Mrs Petite English teacher but maybe Mr or Mrs former military or avid hunter teacher. Maybe establish and offer firearm training courses to eligible and willing teachers. The only way to stop a bad person with a gun is with a good person with a gun.

Of course the anti-gun lobby will argue against any guns in schools. Obviously with putting up a “gun free zone” sign does not keep out crazy people with guns.

Any thoughts on this or other suggestions to protect our schools?



2022-05-25 11:18 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Texas school shooting
I am not sure it's realistic. Schools don't have funds for school supplies, how are they going to find the funds to now arm the teahcers, add guards, and fancy equipment.

Shooters, knowing schools are a no-go, will move to grocery stores (as they did in Boulder last year and Buffalo last week). Will you suggest arming cashiers and adding guards to the grocery stores?

I do not think that's a solution. I am not familiar with the gun laws and such, but I think the problem is in the roots: what are the reasons those people decide to shoot? We need to find a way to stop the initial thought of deciding to do the mass shooting. Restricting the guns and/or arming the schools will not stop people from deciding to take other's lives. Prevention is the key.

I know you hate to hear that in other countries there are no security guards in schools and this is not happening, but the truth is... in other countries there are no security guards in schools and this is not happening.
2022-05-25 12:20 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Texas school shooting

Originally posted by Rogillio  I’d like to propose a real solution. Secure the schools like we secure airports. This includes controlled access and armed law enforcement at every school. There are hundreds of thousands of trained retired law enforcement people who could/would do the job. Put up security camera around the perimeter of the school - very cheap to do nowadays. Limit ingress/egress to one or to points, each with metal detectors and guards. Establish 1- 3 full time law enforcement positions with armed and trained guards. I’d also support allowing certain teachers or custodial workers or staff to be packing. Maybe not Mrs Petite English teacher but maybe Mr or Mrs former military or avid hunter teacher. Maybe establish and offer firearm training courses to eligible and willing teachers. The only way to stop a bad person with a gun is with a good person with a gun. Of course the anti-gun lobby will argue against any guns in schools. Obviously with putting up a “gun free zone” sign does not keep out crazy people with guns. Any thoughts on this or other suggestions to protect our schools?

To your first bolded point:  1) how are we going to pay for it?, there are ~ 130,000 schools in the US per the Googles...figure $250K per school to harden and another $250K/year in ongoing security costs (i just made them up, but I think they're at least in the right number of digits) - that's $33 billion

2) are you seriously advocating for a lock-down environment for children? 

To your second bolded point:  Once you reach that point, you already have a violent situation.  The only way to stop a bad person with a gun is to prevent them from getting one in the first place.  How, you ask, without stepping on the 2nd amendment (which by the way I'm in support of)?:

  • Universal background checks, including ways to manage this on the secondary markets
  • Laws that ensure responsible gun ownership (like civil and criminal liability if your gun is used to commit violent crimes)
  • Repeal certain provisions of HIPAA when mental health concerns outweigh privacy concerns
  • Stronger penalties for gun crimes, or crimes committed with guns
  • Permanent loss of gun ownership rights to gun offenders

All of these are possible with the will to do it, and they won't infringe on the rights of people who responsibly own firearms. 



Edited by jmhpsu93 2022-05-25 12:32 PM
2022-05-25 3:07 PM
in reply to: marysia83

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Subject: RE: Texas school shooting
Originally posted by marysia83

I am not sure it's realistic. Schools don't have funds for school supplies, how are they going to find the funds to now arm the teahcers, add guards, and fancy equipment.

Shooters, knowing schools are a no-go, will move to grocery stores (as they did in Boulder last year and Buffalo last week). Will you suggest arming cashiers and adding guards to the grocery stores?

I do not think that's a solution. I am not familiar with the gun laws and such, but I think the problem is in the roots: what are the reasons those people decide to shoot? We need to find a way to stop the initial thought of deciding to do the mass shooting. Restricting the guns and/or arming the schools will not stop people from deciding to take other's lives. Prevention is the key.

I know you hate to hear that in other countries there are no security guards in schools and this is not happening, but the truth is... in other countries there are no security guards in schools and this is not happening.


Last item first. It is not happening in other countries because of the different cultures. Our country is founded on liberty and with that comes a different set of problems. But the US is not alone:

Average (Mean) Annual Death Rate per Million People from Mass Public Shootings (U.S., Canada, and Europe, 2009-2015):

Norway — 1.888
Serbia — 0.381
France — 0.347
Macedonia — 0.337
Albania — 0.206
Slovakia — 0.185
Switzerland — 0.142
Finland — 0.132
Belgium — 0.128
Czech Republic — 0.123
United States — 0.089
Austria — 0.068
Netherlands — 0.051
Canada — 0.032
England — 0.027
Germany — 0.023
Russia — 0.012
Italy — 0.009

So we are by far not the worst country despite the second amendment.

We just sent $40 billion dollars to Ukraine. The war in Afghanistan cust us $2.6 trillion dollars! That would buy a lot of security. It’s just a matter of priorities.

Yes, ideally we’d be able to figure out who is apt to go crazy and start killing people but we don’t seem to be able to do it very often. As far as restrictions on guns, it is estimated there are over 300 million guns in the US. If I were a criminal and wanted a gun, I’d drive around a neighborhood at night and the first house I found with a pick-up truck in the driveway with no one home, I’d break a window and have a 95% chance of finding a gun. Usually in a nightstand by the bed or under the mattress in the master bedroom.

It’s time we face reality. Guns are not going anywhere and it’s virtually impossible to stop someone from obtaining a gun if they are so inclined. Just look at the drug abuse in this country despite crack, heroine, meth, cocaine being illegal in all 50 states.

Schools are attacked because they are easy targets. Everyone or almost everyone is unarmed and they can shoot at will. Never know in a grocery store what redneck is on the beer isle that is packing….
2022-05-25 3:22 PM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Alabama
Subject: RE: Texas school shooting
Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Originally posted by Rogillio  I’d like to propose a real solution. Secure the schools like we secure airports. This includes controlled access and armed law enforcement at every school. There are hundreds of thousands of trained retired law enforcement people who could/would do the job. Put up security camera around the perimeter of the school - very cheap to do nowadays. Limit ingress/egress to one or to points, each with metal detectors and guards. Establish 1- 3 full time law enforcement positions with armed and trained guards. I’d also support allowing certain teachers or custodial workers or staff to be packing. Maybe not Mrs Petite English teacher but maybe Mr or Mrs former military or avid hunter teacher. Maybe establish and offer firearm training courses to eligible and willing teachers. The only way to stop a bad person with a gun is with a good person with a gun. Of course the anti-gun lobby will argue against any guns in schools. Obviously with putting up a “gun free zone” sign does not keep out crazy people with guns. Any thoughts on this or other suggestions to protect our schools?

To your first bolded point:  1) how are we going to pay for it?, there are ~ 130,000 schools in the US per the Googles...figure $250K per school to harden and another $250K/year in ongoing security costs (i just made them up, but I think they're at least in the right number of digits) - that's $33 billion

2) are you seriously advocating for a lock-down environment for children? 

To your second bolded point:  Once you reach that point, you already have a violent situation.  The only way to stop a bad person with a gun is to prevent them from getting one in the first place.  How, you ask, without stepping on the 2nd amendment (which by the way I'm in support of)?:

  • Universal background checks, including ways to manage this on the secondary markets
  • Laws that ensure responsible gun ownership (like civil and criminal liability if your gun is used to commit violent crimes)
  • Repeal certain provisions of HIPAA when mental health concerns outweigh privacy concerns
  • Stronger penalties for gun crimes, or crimes committed with guns
  • Permanent loss of gun ownership rights to gun offenders

All of these are possible with the will to do it, and they won't infringe on the rights of people who responsibly own firearms. 




Most of this I addressed in pp but “secondly market” caught my attention. By this I assume you mean when I sell or trade a gun to someone else. My stepfather was a gun collector and avid garage sale shopper. Over the years he has bought and sold hundreds of firearms! What you are suggesting is government control over the private property of individuals and that is dangerous. Also, no way to track or enforce this any more than the government was able to control the sale of pot before it became legal or the transfer of other controlled substances or even for alcohol during prohibition. The technology exist for people to make guns at home too. I’m not just talking 3D printing. Someone could go to Harbor Freight and buy everything they need to make a gun if there was a market. Guns are not that complicated. It’s a simple mechanical device that a novice machinist could make easily, especially if he had a pattern and used a copy jig on his machine or has a CNC machine and the plans.

Point being, guns are a fact of life. We can’t stop all violent crime but we can surely protect schoolchildren if we wanted to.
2022-05-26 7:59 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Texas school shooting

Originally posted by RogillioLast item first. It is not happening in other countries because of the different cultures. Our country is founded on liberty and with that comes a different set of problems. 

Translation:  we have willfully accepted a certain number of gun deaths in our country to ensure our unfettered access to as many guns as we want.

That's the crux of it, Rog.  We have had mass shootings (I'm curious to your data source above and what is defined as "public mass shootings") in not only schools, but grocery stores, movie theaters, government buildings (!), Congressional baseball games (!!!!)...despite 25 years having passed since Columbine, with all the security theater we're worse off than ever.  How many places in the U.S. need to be hardened?



2022-05-26 1:15 PM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Alabama
Subject: RE: Texas school shooting
Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Originally posted by RogillioLast item first. It is not happening in other countries because of the different cultures. Our country is founded on liberty and with that comes a different set of problems. 

Translation:  we have willfully accepted a certain number of gun deaths in our country to ensure our unfettered access to as many guns as we want.

How many places in the U.S. need to be hardened?





The second amendment was written to defend against a tyrannical government. I like the old saying, if you give up liberty for security, you end up with neither.

What needs to be hardened? Schools. Don’t change the issue. A dozen people die from guns every weekend in Chicago but that has nothing to do with vulnerable kids in schools. This is why NOTHING ever gets done about school shootings. The left swings for the fence and wants to get rid of the Second Amendment. The right won’t budge on anything either. The ONLY way to secure our schools is to lock them down and assign full time law enforcement to every school.

BTW, my state of Alabama recently passed a concealed carry law that says you no longer need a permit to be packing.

I keep reading the left saying we need to stop the would be shooter before he starts shooting. Sounds good but is virtually impossible. A completely sane person who owns guns acquired legally can suddenly go crazy and start killing people. Do away with guns and they will use a propane tank or homemade bomb or their car or a machete.

Have you bought a gun recently? We certainly do not have “unfettered” access to guns in the US. Not in gun stores anyway. Maybe on the street….good luck regulating that.
2022-05-26 2:02 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Texas school shooting
I honestly don’t believe locking the schools will help in any way, Rog. How do you envision that? If the shooter truly wants to move forward, if the schools are locked - he will find a way. He will shoot at the bus pick up, parking lot, track field. Are we then going to fence the whole school territory, so it looks like prison? Let’s say we do that. The shooter will move to grocery stores, Target, movie theatres, underground train stations, etc… etc… Do you suggest we bullet proof all those places? Does that sound like a leading first world country or some regime terrorist ruled country…? Do you really see yourself walking through TSA-like grocery store just to buy some milk and bread…?

I agree that ban of all guns is not going to do anything. Among some reasons: black markets will thrive, there are thousands of guns already in possessions that are being passed through generations, and some other reasons that you stated before. I have friends who own guns for safety, I have friends who are hunters, I was also considering buying one when I thought I would try training for biathlon. I had some conversations with my friends and it was definitely helpful to understand each side. And I think that dialogue between two sides is definitely necessary, so that they could meet somewhere in the middle.

I totally understand collectors, hunters, sport-related gun ownership. But the guns that Texas kid bought? Semiautomatic Ar-15? It does not look to me like neither a collectible nor something you keep at home to protect from a burglar. This looks to me like a weapon designed to kill people - kill a lot of people very quickly. Why is this sold to civilians?
2022-05-26 3:08 PM
in reply to: marysia83

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Alabama
Subject: RE: Texas school shooting
Originally posted by marysia83

I honestly don’t believe locking the schools will help in any way, Rog. How do you envision that? If the shooter truly wants to move forward, if the schools are locked - he will find a way. He will shoot at the bus pick up, parking lot, track field. Are we then going to fence the whole school territory, so it looks like prison? Let’s say we do that. The shooter will move to grocery stores, Target, movie theatres, underground train stations, etc… etc… Do you suggest we bullet proof all those places? Does that sound like a leading first world country or some regime terrorist ruled country…? Do you really see yourself walking through TSA-like grocery store just to buy some milk and bread…?

I agree that ban of all guns is not going to do anything. Among some reasons: black markets will thrive, there are thousands of guns already in possessions that are being passed through generations, and some other reasons that you stated before. I have friends who own guns for safety, I have friends who are hunters, I was also considering buying one when I thought I would try training for biathlon. I had some conversations with my friends and it was definitely helpful to understand each side. And I think that dialogue between two sides is definitely necessary, so that they could meet somewhere in the middle.

I totally understand collectors, hunters, sport-related gun ownership. But the guns that Texas kid bought? Semiautomatic Ar-15? It does not look to me like neither a collectible nor something you keep at home to protect from a burglar. This looks to me like a weapon designed to kill people - kill a lot of people very quickly. Why is this sold to civilians?



I have an AR-15 and go to the range with friends and shoot periodically. It is small (relatively) and many people like to hunt with them because they are very light. I like the rifle as it is similar to the M16 that I trained with in the army. They are easy to disassemble and clean - another reason it is liked. The ammo is not very expensive which makes using it for target shooting economical unlike say a high powered 30-06. The AR15 is also 10 times quieter than a 30-06 so if I’m shooting at a fox or coyote chasing our chickens the AR15 is my weapon on choice. BTW, we don’t have chickens anymore, damn fox at two of them so I gave the rest of them to a buddy of mine who has better facilities. People have the idea an AR15 is the ultimate killing machine. I never understood this. A hand gun with a 10 round clip is just as deadly at close range as a rifle and it takes about 2 seconds to drop an empty magazine and chamber another magazine. Even a shotgun with 5 shells can be reloaded almost instantly as one is shooting.

I agree it will be difficult to secure schools but I don’t see any other solution. The alternative is to do nothing - just like after all the other school shootings.



2022-05-27 11:36 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Texas school shooting
I think you all have done too good a job of showing just how difficult a problem this is. The shooter in this case went through an unlocked back door, that's incredibly sloppy on the part of the school, literally step zero of protecting those inside. The type of gun he used doesn't matter, though I personally would be in support of requiring low-capacity magazines. I know they are quick to change, but a couple seconds can save lives.

I do think there is something to be said about the approach to "stop the would be shooter before he starts shooting". Why is it virtually impossible? We have an extremely accurate profile of who these shooters are: Male, average age of 18, generalized anger/despair turned outward on the world, often legally (85%) buying their first gun with intent to kill people. Surely there is a way to better screen first time gun buyers, it wouldn't just protect schools, it would protect everyone in the community. Hell, maybe even give first time buyers a polygraph on intent of use, they aren't perfect but follow-up could be done if they fail. Obviously this doesn't protect against the small amount of illegal purchases, but we can only change what we can control, and a vast majority were legal purchases.
2022-06-06 3:55 PM
in reply to: Synon

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Subject: RE: Texas school shooting
What about this:
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/06/05/opinions/guns-ar-15-uvalde-school...

I know nothing about guns, laws, etc... but what he says makes sense, and am wondering your opinion.


2022-06-06 8:42 PM
in reply to: marysia83

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Albuquerque, New Mexico
Subject: RE: Texas school shooting

Originally posted by marysia83 What about this: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/06/05/opinions/guns-ar-15-uvalde-school... I know nothing about guns, laws, etc... but what he says makes sense, and am wondering your opinion.

Some of what he says makes sense, some does not. 

Skipping 22 caliber, the cheapest handgun to shoot is the 9mm and the cheapest rifle to shoot is the NATO 5.56 (AR-15).  These are the highest volume ammo produced whether that particular round is "needed" for anything or not. 

That largely answers WHY most people who have them got them even if they can't pinpoint that reason.  With the light projectile, it's one of the lower recoil rifles, making it relatively more pleasant to shoot and a good option (along with the cheapest ammo) for gaining proficiency. 

I have hunter friends who hunt with AR-15's, so yes, it is a "sporting" rifle even if the bulk of them never see the field. 

He takes quite a few liberties with trying to define "self defense."  Yes, in most close-range/tight quarters, the AR-15 isn't a great self-defense gun, but even in the article, he inadvertently concedes that it can be better than a handgun due to accuracy.  "Instinctive shooting" (think Kyle Rittenhouse) where you don't get a lot of time to actually "aim" the gun is much better with the AR-15 than a handgun.  Your high school teachers who pointed to things with a yardstick rather than a 6" ruler understood why...the longer the sight line, the easier to align with the target. 

I haven't weighed in on the OP,  but will do so now. 

While that shooter was able to legally acquire those weapons because he didn't "have a record" that doesn't mean he wasn't known.  The breakdown isn't in the lack of a law that prevented his purchase, it's the multiple instances where he wasn't prosecuted keeping his record clean.  It's the years and years of ineffective discipline that both breeds disrespect for authority and anger/resentment that culminates in these types of events. 

The solution isn't more gun laws, hardening schools, etc. 

The solution is QUIT MAKING KILLERS! 

2022-06-07 5:08 PM
in reply to: #5281196

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Subject: RE: Texas school shooting
“Quit making killers” is one of those statements that sound good but would require us to go back to the 1950s where most kids were raised by 2 parents and there was no internet.

I stand by my position the only way to stop school shootings is to harden schools. There may still be shootings in other places but schools are a very soft target. The shooter is very unlikely to face someone shooting back at them and kids are not likely to charge the shooter. Is it flawless? No. Would I rather send my kids to a school that has locked doors and metal detectors and security guards or one that is wide up with a “gun free zone” sign out front?

One of my workers said her kids school was pretty secure. Said you have to ring a bell and they look at you on camera. Then you have to show your ID then someone will come let you in. This just makes sense to me.

Will the over the top ideas out there my fear is congress will pass some feel good, do nothing bill. It’s gonna have to be left to the states and local school boards as opinions vary in different demographics.



2022-06-07 9:41 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Albuquerque, New Mexico
Subject: RE: Texas school shooting

Originally posted by Rogillio “Quit making killers” is one of those statements that sound good but would require us to go back to the 1950s where most kids were raised by 2 parents and there was no internet. I stand by my position the only way to stop school shootings is to harden schools. There may still be shootings in other places but schools are a very soft target. The shooter is very unlikely to face someone shooting back at them and kids are not likely to charge the shooter. Is it flawless? No. Would I rather send my kids to a school that has locked doors and metal detectors and security guards or one that is wide up with a “gun free zone” sign out front? One of my workers said her kids school was pretty secure. Said you have to ring a bell and they look at you on camera. Then you have to show your ID then someone will come let you in. This just makes sense to me. Will the over the top ideas out there my fear is congress will pass some feel good, do nothing bill. It’s gonna have to be left to the states and local school boards as opinions vary in different demographics.

We don't have to go back to the 50's, but we're seeing the consequences of years and years of liberal feel-good policies. 

Here's some rhetorical questions:  For how much of that shooter's young life had he been exposed to the "toxic masculinity" mantra?  How much of his life was he inadequately supervised by "anti-bullying" adults?  For how much of his life, has he been led to believe he has no agency, nothing is his fault, blah, blah, blah? 

Two parent households with POSITIVE male and female roles are better at preventing the delinquency demonstrated by the shooter. 

Limited and properly supervised internet for juveniles would be helpful.

 

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