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2007-03-20 1:28 PM

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Master
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Subject: Political Flip-Flopping...

Why is "Flip-flopping" a bad thing.  I have heard it mentioned a ton lately in political discussion and it was the favorite republican description of Kerry in the last election.   Why is it bad to change your mind?    So it is better to "stay the course" even if you are headed off a cliff? It just seems like educated people would be willing to admit that new data could change their position on issues.   What do you think?



2007-03-20 1:35 PM
in reply to: #730327

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Master
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Subject: RE: Political Flip-Flopping...
why do you hate america?

here's one of my favorite Daily Show clips of all time---a debate between george bush and...george bush.

http://www.comedycentral.com/sitewide/media_player/play.jhtml?itemI...
2007-03-20 1:38 PM
in reply to: #730327

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Runner
Subject: RE: Political Flip-Flopping...
tkbslc - 2007-03-20 2:28 PM

Why is "Flip-flopping" a bad thing. I have heard it mentioned a ton lately in political discussion and it was the favorite republican description of Kerry in the last election. Why is it bad to change your mind? So it is better to "stay the course" even if you are headed off a cliff? It just seems like educated people would be willing to admit that new data could change their position on issues. What do you think?

Flip-flopping is not admitting that there's a better course.  It's more akin to changing your message to match the crowd.  Generally, it implies making promises that one has no intention of keeping, in order to gain popularity.  As with just about every term in the political realm, it's meaning has been twisted and misconstrued to the point where it is no used liberally without any attachment to original meaning.  Hence the reason everyone can be said to flip-flop on issues.

I think a large part of it, though, is the way people state things.  It's one thing to say that, in light of additional information now available, I think that the initial decision wasn't the best and that another option will be better from this point forward; and saying that well, I MEANT to really do this, but I wasn't comfortable doing so at that time.  The person needs to admit to a level of fallibility which  is not likely to occur.  We tend to have a zero-tolerance policy on these matters.

2007-03-20 1:43 PM
in reply to: #730327

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Political Flip-Flopping...
tkbslc - 2007-03-20 2:28 PM

Why is "Flip-flopping" a bad thing.  I have heard it mentioned a ton lately in political discussion and it was the favorite republican description of Kerry in the last election.   Why is it bad to change your mind?    So it is better to "stay the course" even if you are headed off a cliff? It just seems like educated people would be willing to admit that new data could change their position on issues.   What do you think?

 

Changing your mind or changing your view on policy issues isn't a problem.  I agree with you.(Of course the current administration doesn't get this deference)  The problem that I had with Kerry is that I couldn' t figure out where he stood on the major issues.  He never seemed to actually voice a coherent statement about what he stood for.  It wasn't that he changed his stance, it was that he had no stance, or maybe he had multiple stances, to this day I'm not really sure which. He seemed to want to be all things to all people.  Taking a stance on an issue, by it's very nature means that there will be those with opposing view points.  Kerry seemed unwilling to do this.  If you're for something, by it's very nature you are going to be against something else.  Kerry seemed to want to portray that he was for everything, thereby not alienating anybody.  At least that was my perception of the candidate.

I know of several of my co-workers that have said they voted for Bush because "at least I knew what he stood for."

2007-03-20 1:44 PM
in reply to: #730327

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Political Flip-Flopping...

Flip flopping - to me - isn't bad in hindsight, if you get the right decision.  I think, though, that the reason flip-flopping has been demonized is because it creates uncertainty in people's minds IN THE FUTURE. 

People like to know what they're getting...and if a person has changed positions on many issues before - based on new information - what's to prevent the same person from changing their mind again?  Better the devil you know than....

2007-03-20 1:54 PM
in reply to: #730327

Pro
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Subject: RE: Political Flip-Flopping...
Flip-flopping, or changing your mind is seen as weakness. Weakness is not tolerated in politicians who are, for some reason, meant to be better than normal people.

There is a distinct difference, though, between changing your mind and changing your message b/c you think you can sell that one more easily. That kind of flip-flopping is just cynical. I know that there is nothing cynical about politics, though.

The other part of it is that most people are either not smart enough, too lazy or too impatient to understand a nuanced argument. So, when somebody introduces nuance into a statement, they are seen as being mealy-mouthed, a waffler, unable to commit to a position or a flip-flopper.



2007-03-20 3:06 PM
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Champion
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Subject: RE: Political Flip-Flopping...
I like what they call on Flip Flopping since well people change, the country changes, and somethings do not work. If we try something and it does not work then we need to go abck to what worked. Nothing worse than staying the course when the direction is down.
2007-03-20 6:28 PM
in reply to: #730327

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Master
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Subject: RE: Political Flip-Flopping...
Flip flopping emboldens the enemy.
2007-03-20 11:01 PM
in reply to: #730327

Master
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Subject: RE: Political Flip-Flopping...

[hi-jack on]

Thanks to political flip-flopping I have a dilemma on my hands. Opus, remember that on outspoken MP from Ontario who got himself kicked out of Harper's Caucus? Garth Turner, outspoken little fellow, is the MP in the riding where I reside. He recently joined up with the party I had intended on voting for (for my first ever election). Now I don't like this man, I'd rather not vote for him. I hope Stephan Dion gives him the boot too before the next federal election rolls around.

[Hijack off]

Thanks for tuning in, next week we shed some light on "MPP's of the Yukon: Unsung, and unspoken for". You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming.

2007-03-21 7:21 AM
in reply to: #730790

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Subject: RE: Political Flip-Flopping...
coachese - 2007-03-20 7:28 PM

Flip flopping emboldens the enemy.


If we flip-flop, the terrorists have won.
2007-03-21 7:59 AM
in reply to: #731178

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Subject: RE: Political Flip-Flopping...

They wear flip-flops, you know?

Opus - 2007-03-21 7:21 AM
coachese - 2007-03-20 7:28 PM Flip flopping emboldens the enemy.
If we flip-flop, the terrorists have won.



2007-03-21 10:22 AM
in reply to: #730327

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Master
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Subject: RE: Political Flip-Flopping...
here's a great case of flip-flopping of the politically convenient sort.

white house propagandist press secretary tony snow has argued the position in the last couple of days that it would be wrong for presidential aides to testify before congress relating to the prosecutor purge because it would harm the prez's ability to get candid advice.

but here's what tony snow had to say in march of 1998:
Evidently, Mr. Clinton wants to shield virtually any communications that take place within the White House compound on the theory that all such talk contributes in some way, shape or form to the continuing success and harmony of an administration. Taken to its logical extreme, that position would make it impossible for citizens to hold a chief executive accountable for anything. He would have a constitutional right to cover up.

Chances are that the courts will hurl such a claim out, but it will take time.

One gets the impression that Team Clinton values its survival more than most people want justice and thus will delay without qualm. But as the clock ticks, the public’s faith in Mr. Clinton will ebb away for a simple reason: Most of us want no part of a president who is cynical enough to use the majesty of his office to evade the one thing he is sworn to uphold — the rule of law.


using US v. Nixon as a precedent, it would appear that snowjob was right the first time:
The President’s need for complete candor and objectivity from advisers calls for great deference from the courts. However, when the privilege depends solely on the broad, undifferentiated claim of public interest in the confidentiality of such conversations, a confrontation with other values arises. Absent a claim of need to protect military, diplomatic, or sensitive national security secrets, we find it difficult to accept the argument that even the very important interest in confidentiality of Presidential communications is significantly diminished by production of such material for in camera inspection with all the protection that a district court will be obliged to provide.


flip. flop.
2007-03-21 10:42 AM
in reply to: #730327

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Political Flip-Flopping...
Yeah. When they had prohibition they should have the stayed the course no matter what otherwise the mobsters wouldn't win.

In terms of Iraq Bush flip flops all the time. We are there because of WMD we know exactly what they have. We are there to free the people of iraq and give them democracy. I forget why we are there now. I think it has something to do with Halliburnton but I am not sure.
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