Q about Heed

I don't see a problem. I use 2 scoops in a 20oz bottle as well.

Works great. If you read their fueling guide on their website it's what they recommend. One example they put 8 scoops in one bottle to make 1 "fuel bottle" so the rest of their bottles can be just water. I've concentrated it as much as 4 scoops in a 24oz bottle personally and it tastes and drinks just fine.

 

hey thanks for that!  Doih, go to their website!!! Why didn't I think of that!
This is why I love BT :->

Not overly familiar with Heed, but in general your digestive system can best process carbohydrates in a specific concentration, which IIRC is like 6%-8% within a soluiton. If you mix it stronger you could impede absorption.

Certainly many of the products out there allow you to concentrate them like that, but i think the caveat/advice is that you take a sip of the concentrate with a sip or two of water. Carrying water in addition to the concentrated drink, of course, may diminish the space benefit you're trying to accomplish.

Hammer Nutrition has a bunch of really good articles (granted they're a bit biased) about how to use their stuff, and fuel in general.
One of their claims is that the complex carbs they use can be absorbed at higher concentration than the 6-8% mentioned above, I forget the figure they gave, but its in the pdf version of the fueling handbook. I want to say 15% but I could be wrong.

If you are going >2 hours, maybe give Perpetuem a try.  It has protein and fat (which your body will want to utilize over the 2 hour mark), and there are multiple articles on Hammer's site and their user group (on Yahoo) pertaining to this.

You can even make a 'pancake batter' type consistency and use in smaller gel bottles (always take this with water) to really get a concentrated calorie load.  This helps when you are going really long.  That being said, Perpetuem is an acquired taste for sure.  I did a century in Death Valley a couple of years ago, and I think I was the only one filling my bottles with that at every aid station -- but it works!  They have a new Cafe Latte flavor, too.  I have not tried it, but the other Perp flavors really suck when they get warm, I would imagine that may be a bit more palatable!!! 

2 scoops of HEED in a 20 oz bottle would be too concentrated for me. 

Steve Born (Hammer's Senior Technical Advisor) is a friend of mine and VERY well versed on endurance nutrition.  You cannot go wrong with his advice (multiple RAAMs, Double Furnace Creek 508, Ultra Cycling Hall of Fame) -- all great folks at Hammer. 

Check out all the articles on their site www.hammernutrition.com and you can find a link to the Yahoo group as well.

Hope that helps.  I believe you can get perpetuem in single serve packs as well to try it out.

ken

i use heed for all of my training/racing up to 5:30 so far, and have mixed bottles up to 400 cal without issues. if you mix it stronger make sure you are drinking water as well.

Ken
Thanks, I did give Perp a try on a >2 hr ride but am aiming to KISS.  Perp doesn't have electrolytes, and I'm still monkeying around with things after I ended up feeling all bloaty after boise and want to try another HIM at the end of summer so my long ride tom. I'm gonna give this a try and see how I feel after the bike/run I do.

I might try Perp / Nuun in water next time to see how it goes.

The double strength Heed I do have water in the other bottle cage and the aero bottle, and plan to refill....

tnx everyone.

i did a heed in the bottles and hammer gel for my last HIM and NAILED my nutrition with it.

if its really hot i will drop a nuun in the heed.

Are you sure that perp does not have electrolytes? I have not seen that anywhere else.

Here is a link to the Perp/Sustained Energy page:http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=PRODUCT&CAT=SUPFUELS.HAM.NUTRI&PROD.ID=4047&OMI=10103,10082,10047&AMI=10103&uir=product.category,SUPFUELS.HAM.NUTRI,Sports%20Drinks%20%26%20Gels&offer=

There is a quick video on there with Steve Born -- discussing that our bodies need protein after 2 hours, otherwise they will start feeding on muscle tissue to get it.  Not sure about the electrolyte question -- I would take in Endurolytes every hour anyway to be safe.  You can also get Endurolytes in powder form to mix with the drink.  Shoot Steve an email or post on the Hammer Forum, you will likely get an answer.

I looked into Hammer products for calorie-fluid supplements for long rides, but I found that:

BULK MALTODEXTRIN trumps all.

$50 for 50 lbs. That's enough to use every day for 2 years! For $50, you get about enough Perpetuem for 8 long rides if it's all you use.

Flavorless, soluble, and can add to any flavored or unflavored drink easily. 1 cup/bottle = 300-400 cals. 

I've been using it recently and will never spend money on commercial products again since it works so well on long rides and costs so little. (It actually is the main ingredient in most Hammer and other caloric liquid carbo supplements.) The only drawback, if it can be called that, is that you have to bring your own electrolytes - but salt tabs generic are cheap and effective.

Edited by agarose2000 2009-06-27 9:26 PM

In the handbooks they have on the website, HEED has 125% of an endurolyte tab per two scoops. Sustained Energy and Perpetuem have electrolytes (Sodium and potassium) in them, but not the full spectrum electrolyte mix that hammer nutrition uses. Looking at the nutrition facts, Perp/SE also lack the chelated electorlytes and so are not as easily absorbed in the body.
Since they don't make a big deal about talking up their full blend of electrolytes in the lit on Perp/SE/Hammer Gel, but do for HEED, I'd say its a safe bet that Perp/SE will not keep your electrolytes where you want them. For instance, 250 Calories worth of Gatorade Endurance has 5 times the Sodium of 270 Calories worth of Perpetuem.

I've got news for all y'all electrolyte "fiends."

Your kidneys are EXTRAORDINARILY good at regularing your bodium sodium regardless of intake. As long as you get enough sodium and drink to thirst (not overdoing it) , you will regulate at nearly EXACTLY 140mEq.

The hyponatremia issues come mainly from when less-trained athletes gorge themselves on free water, past their thirst point.

If you doubt this, consider that your CLIF bars and other solids you eat en route have liberal amounts of sodium in them, and you do fine. In fact, electrolytes are a non-issue for trained marathoners; they run between 3-4 hrs, and never need to worry about their lytes. They just pop a GU every hour or so and they're good to go.

Long-distance trifolks need to pay more attention to calories and electrolytes since they're going for 4+ hrs, but still, the key is to get enough sodium, and then have enough water to quench thirst. Your kidneys will take care of the rest. All the marketing of electrolyte balances are hype. We tested this exact phenomena amongst 100 medical students, 1/3rd of which drank 2x concentration saltwater (1 liter), 1/3rd drank isotonic saltwater, and 1/3rd drank free water, and then had liberal access to salty crackers and free water. Urine output matched free water intake to 1-2 cc for nearly the entire 100 person class, and EXACTLY matched the estimated sodium balance. The kidney is a remarkable organ.

Short summary: For LONG workouts, bring "enough" electrolytes either in food, drinks, or tabs. It doesn't take much at all. You can even overdo it on intake, but make sure you have enough access to water for when your thirst mechanism kicks in to dilute.