Looking for run training advice to take it to the next level

Slow down on more of your runs.  Or go enter a race and see how fast you are now.  Perhaps those paces are too slow for you.

Then run more ?and ?more ?frequently?.?? ? ???M?o?s?t?l?y? ??"?s?l?o?w??"?,? ?s?o?m?e?t?i?m?e?s? ????f?a?s?t?e?r?.? ? ???Y?o?u don't need to do any "speed" work to hit your goals.

A few things. You've placed a limiter on your training so that will be a factor in how much you can improve. It sounds like you're doing all your runs at race pace. That's too fast and may be a reason why you have limited how much you'll train. McMillan gives those times based on a properly constructed training program. 20 miles/week is much below a quality 10K program, and well below any kind of a half marathon program. If you're running 9 miles as a long run during a 20 mile week, that's too high of a percentage. Long runs should not exceed 25-30% of weekly volume. Speedwork should be kept to no more than 10-15% of weekly volume, or 2-2.5 miles in a 20 mile week. Since you've limited yourself to 4 days, you would be able to do something like this.
1. 4 miles - 1.5 mile warmup, 4x400 at prescribed pace with 200 jog recovery, 1 mile cool down.
2. 5 miles at easy pace.
3. 5 miles with middle 3 miles at tempo, 1st & 5th mile easy.
4. 6 mile long run at long run pace.

In order to really see improvement you would need to up the weekly volume to 30-35 miles and increase all the above proportionately.

One of the biggest reasons people can't increase their volume is because they do all their runs way too fast. When you start running easier you'll be able to run more.

Amen, brother. 

I will add this (which is based entirely on my own recent experience of getting my mileage up and not on professional expertise, so take it FWIW):  while you are increasing volume, keep that 10-15% speedwork to more like 0-5%.  Example:  I am increasing volume, and will run ~50 miles this week.  I did my week's worth of speedwork today -- all 2 miles of it.  (Once I'm consistently at 50mpw and that is going well (I hope), then yes, I will increase to more like 10-15%.  Maybe even a bit more as my body does seem to be fairly resilient.)

^^^All of the advise above is excellent.  Volume first, then speed work.

What?

I use Jack Daniels, not McMillian, but from everything I know, this is very wrong. You train to your current fitness, not your goal fitness. As your fitness improves, you adjust your paces to match based on testing that you do. If you put in your "goal" race time and train to those paces, it's a great way to get injured or overdo it in training.

I can run a 36 min 10k. If I wanted to run a 32 min 10k and tried to train to those paces, I would burn out very quickly...

At 52:00 for a 10k I think you can pretty much drop all ideas speedwork for now.  As others have said you will see more gains by just upping your volume and maybe some tempo work on a shorter run.  If you really want to improve, add that fifth run in the week, but slow down for the majority of your runs...training too fast too often is what will actually be bad on your joints, not an extra day of running.

Don't you just love the conflicting advice out there? Without knowing who gave you that advice, I wonder what they base that on. Based on what I've read, experienced and believe, you base your training on your actual current fitness, not on what you want your fitness to be!

I want to run a 2hr marathon, so what should my paces be?

Yeah, don't put your goal time in.  Put in an actual race result, then train your heart out and maybe you'll reach your goal. 

Edited by Experior 2010-09-01 8:36 PM

For the OP:

I'm going to repost both of these on the main page, but here they are, might be something worth while to look through for you

some thoughts on not getting hurt:
http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp...

and why we train at the paces/styles we do:
http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp...

Thanks for the responses and Newbz, for the links -- I really appreciate that you took the time.

I never really think about training pace vs. race pace.  I just go out and run at a challenging, yet supportable pace, for a particular time or distance.  Same with the bike.  The only sport where I really focus on pacing is the swim (and that's b/c the Master's coaches focus on it).  So it's not surprising that my training pace = race pace.   Frankly, I thought I WAS running easy -- hence the surprise when McMillan said my long runs should be over a min/mile slower than they are now.  That will feel really weird -- but I'll try it... starting tonight.

Sounds like I need to start focusing more on the pacing. 

@Don - thanks for the workout suggestion -- I'll try that.  As I am increasing volume, do I increase each workout equally? Or do I put more time in the long run first?

Psychologically, knowing that I do 8 or 9 miles at a time makes 6.2 miles seem much less initimidating.

Thanks again for all your responses.

Steve

Yes, when increasing volume, add something to all the workouts proportionately. However, at this point you should limit the speedwork and just focus on building volume. If you want to do a 9 mile long run, to make the percentages work you would need to run at least 30 miles/week. However, you can see how limiting yourself to only 4 days/week would leave you needing to run 21 miles on your 3 remaining days. That would be 7 miles each, but if you added another day you could reduce the runs to about 5 miles each, which could be more manageable. If you did 5 runs you could still have a speed day, a tempo day, a long run, and two easy days. The speed and tempo days would be as I already described - just a portion of that days miles are speed or tempo, not the entire workout.

I have a real hard time with this. I can't fit in my other training on the bike/swim running 5 days a week, nor can my knees take the abuse of running successive days. I find it easier to run 2x a week between 3-6 miles and then keep increasing my long run. Sometimes I add 2-3 mile short runs after bikes for brick workouts but not always, and my body seems to recover better with doing one 9-10 mile run a week and 2 shorter runs. I'm certainly no expert. Am I doing any harm by building my miles this way?

To the OP:  Look, where you are now, 4 runs a week, 20 mpw, 8:25/mile for a 10K, you definitely will still pick up some speed with increased volume...and also with the accumulation of weeks (and months) of running at that volume.  So that's the common sense recommendation you're going to get from everyone who's been down this path before, including me.

Having said that, there's always a bit of a risk factor with upping your run volume while trying to maintain a solid routine of biking and swimming.  Most of us don't have the hours in the week to just inject more running without sacrificing some swimming or biking...or a marriage.  I always have to remind myself when I see the absolutely great advice Scout7 brings to this forum about "running more" that Scout7 doesn't actually (to the best of my knowledge) do any cycling or swimming.  No judgement there whatsoever, but it is a reality when you're approaching running in the context of tri training.  So you have a three options if you want to make a serious effort to upgrade your run:  1) Reduce your cycling and swimming to clear some time, 2) Wait til the "off season" and shift to a mostly run schedule then, making improvement there a clear focus, or 3) Up your long runs and/or the intensity of some shorter sessions within your current routine, bearing in mind the increased likelihood of injury.

That likelihood is real...but it isn't a given.  Nothing you read here (or in the McMillan calculator) is written in stone...it just represents a combination of experience, probabilities, and common sense.  It is possible to exceed some of the "rules of the road" that have been shared in this thread without ending up on the shelf with an injury, but you have to take care of yourself...make sure you are getting adequate rest and nutrition (esp. when recovering from long sessions)...and be proactive about treatment if you even think you're developing an overuse injury.

Anyhow, just my two cents.  For now, you definitely have room to improve just with increased volume.  Good luck.