Improving run

Seems like this is doing a good job getting in some miles quite regularly. How well do those race times represent your current fitness? If you've been running this for month, you've probably improved some. Also, how much are you trying to keep up with swimming & biking during this time? More just maintenance or pretty regular?

The long run is good size for that total.

The 2x7 would consider backing off a little to just easy. You already have 2 hard runs and the long one tends to counts as hard by distance even though it isn't pushing the upper aerobic area.

Is 7-9 the length of the entire run? That'd be huge for a tempo distance, but probably fine if the faster part of it is 4-5 miles or so. How hard is this being run? I tend to look at Daniels VDOT to assist in pace determination. The previous stand alone events would be about 49, for a pace of almost 7/mile. A little slower is fine too, particularly if this is more like 30 minutes or more than 20 to complete.

Is the 15x400 the only interval set being run? For the type of work you'd probably want, 400's would be more introductory to it, but that's a lot of them for it. At your speed, 800-1200's should put you in 3-5' per interval. Total work time of 15-20 tends to be good. Maybe a little more with decent mileage being handled well for some time. Recovery about the same as work time.

Asking again here about the amount being done, are you almost becoming a runner at this point? Two higher intensity workouts (tempo at moderate still counts) tends to be quite a bit for a triathlete. One decent one can still do a lot. Also looking at doing the same hard workouts all the time. Are those just examples?

Any strides on the easy days?

How old are you, what's your ht and wt, what's your running background (were you a runner as a youngster and faster than you are now?)

I was a competitive AG runner for 30 years before I switched over to Triathlon.  As a pure runner my typical week would be about 40 miles.  

I would do a speed work day every week (i.e. 10 x 400m, or 1000's, etc).  

I was supposed to do one tempo run every week, but they often were paced too slow to achieve that.

I would do one long run every week which was typically 12-18 miles.  The other days I would do 5-6 miles at an easy pace.

My 5K time was around an 18:10.

My half marathon time was 1:24:00

When I started to do triathlons (at the 70.3 distance).  I went to three days of running.  I dropped my tempo run and made it an easy 4-5 mile run.  I dropped my long runs to 10-16 miles. My weekly total was around 25 miles a week.  My run time in my first two 70.3's were both just seconds over 2 hours.  The first race I told myself 3 miles into the run when I was at my physical limits to just go under 2 hours and call it good.  I did about the same thing in the 2nd race which was a lot harder run than the first race. So I did not run well off the bike.

Two weeks after my first 70.3 I did a local 5K.  It was my first one that I had done since starting my triathlon training 9 months earlier.  The interesting thing is that I ran fast than I had done over 6 years of run focus at 40 MPW.  I did a 17:52 5K  So...the reduced run miles and the focus on endurance rather than speed actually made me a faster pure runner.  I attribute it to the cross training and reduced stress from less running.

But...my triathlon running was still not under control.  The factor holding me back was probably fatigue from the Swim and Bike Legs.  My first two 70.3 both had very difficult bike courses.  I felt like I was going slow for the first 30 miles, but by mile 40 I was starting to feel tired and by the time I got off the bike I was pretty spent.    So this year I did things differently.  1) I dropped from the 70.3 distance to the Olympic distance (even though I have a 70.3 I am going to be doing in 6 weeks for a B race). 2) I started to do a lot more speed work and tempo work.

My week this year looked more like this

1) 10 min warm up + 3 x 1600m @ 6:10 pace w/ 400m recovery interval and 10 minute cool down

2) 6 mile tempo run at 6:45 min/mi pace (with the first mile usually a bit slower to warm up but sometimes I would just go straight into things).

3) 8-12 mile long run at 7:20-7:30 min/mil pace

At my Olympic triathlon the bike was fast and fun unlike the slow and taxing of the 70.3.  I was 15 minutes under my goal on the bike.  My run time was 2-1/2 minutes slower than my goals so it wasn't a really fast run, but my bike rank was number 9 over all if I remember correctly and my run rank was number 7 over all (it would have been #1 if I had hit my run goal).  My open 5K times have been slower since the new plan then they were under the old plan so the biggest factor in my better run is that I got tot he run fresher in the shorter race.  I will see how the run goes in my 70.3 in 6 weeks.  I think I am starting to peak on the bike so my increased bike fitness is also probably getting me to the start of the run fresher.  

So...this year I have tried doing a ton more speed work and a lot fewer slow easy miles.  So far I have been happy with the way things have progresses but until I can do 70.3 run in under 2 hours I haven't really proven that I have any improvement.  I was afraid to break away from what i had been doing to try something different.  I did it and it hasn't seemed to hurt anything.  I think that if you have hit a plateau that trying something different is good. It may not be that the new plan is any better than the old plan but it focuses on different things which can keep you progressing where sticking with the same tried and true plan over and over again kind of goes with the adage that if you always do what you have always done you will always get what you have always got. 

The long run is good size for that total.

The 2x7 would consider backing off a little to just easy. You already have 2 hard runs and the long one tends to counts as hard by distance even though it isn't pushing the upper aerobic area.

Is 7-9 the length of the entire run? That'd be huge for a tempo distance, but probably fine if the faster part of it is 4-5 miles or so. How hard is this being run?

Yeah I normally do a warmup and cool down, so fast stuff is about 3 - 4 miles, this is about 10km race pace

Partly from volume, but more so with how much training revolves around running at this point. Most don't have the time to do much else, though do. The multiple hard days would also tend to mean less activity elsewhere too.

And as another suggested, careful with the ramp up since you've had some injuries in the past. The most important thing is just to be able to run regularly. Another reason to consider backing down on the frequency of harder running.

I think that's pretty solid advice. ^^

With your body type you are already an overachiever, and your age, along with the fact that you've been down the injury road a few times, is working against you and will require that you proceed very slowly.  I don't think the 400's are doing you much good and they are a BIG load in your week.   I'd replace them with a fartleck run of longer length, and cut down the distance of the tempo run with a couple miles warm up and cool down before and after..... and if you want to keep the intervals I'd look at doing 1000 repeats every 3rd week or so. (maybe 6 of them at 5K pace.  Another thing that can be very helpful is 4-6 strides after your run workouts.  Ideally, you want to find a 100 yard VERY SLIGHT decline to do those on.....the idea is to build your pace as you run them, then walk back up and do another.  They can be gold for some people.

In the end, you're probably working on the edge of your capability right now and it would be a very good time to get a GOOD run coach.  To give you an example, I went back and looked at the summer maintenance workouts for a D! college XC/track team.......the work you are doing now is about week 6 of a 12 week program (without the 400's), and those are kids who are basically ONLY running.  To reiterate, you need to REALLY proceed cautiously.

You're a long way from hurting s/b/r muscle mass........the 3 triathletes I am most familiar with are 6'4" and 155-160.....very, very fast.

FWIW - I pretty much did exactly what you aspire to do in the last 4 years of my triathlon training.  

My HIM run was about 1:38-1:40, dropped to 1:33, and open HM from 1:35 to 1:27. 

I will say it was very hard for me to make that drop, as for me running a open HM at 1:35 is where my body likes to live at a reasonable 30-35mpw, whereas I'm definitely pushing my limits of everything at 70+mpw, which is what it took retraining as a pure runner to drop fro 1:35 to 1:27. I did that on a pure marathon training block. I kept some of that speed on lower mileage as I went back to HIM, but I will admit that I underbiked that race unintentionally, which set me up for a faster-than-normal run. There's no way I could run 70mpw on a triathlon training regimen. 

Guess my take home point that is was very hard for me to make that jump, and takes both a ton of pure running work and maintenance that I can't sustain as a triathlete. It may be different for you if you can run 1:35s on less training than me, but my rate of improvement really drops off like crazy after 40mpw run.

Originally posted by mike761

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by mike761 I'm right with you on the swim and bike but I can't touch your run. I'm 3 years older, and i'm 5' 7" to 5' 8" my race weight is at about 165lbs. I have a stocky build with a 42" chest. I don't put in the miles you do right now, maybe next year. At our height and weight I can tell right now that we could both drop to about 150-155 without hurting out S/B/R specific muscle mass. That drop in weight would probably put you where you want to be on the run, as well as help a little on the bike. About 3 years ago I was in a university study for endurance athletes, I was at 167lbs and they measured me at 11%-12% body fat. That 10lbs is like strapping a gallon of milk around you waste before your race. I also know it's a losing that last 10 lbs!

You're a long way from hurting s/b/r muscle mass........the 3 triathletes I am most familiar with are 6'4" and 155-160.....very, very fast.

Yes I know!! that's why I we need to drop weight

Yeah, I know you were saying that.  I was just pointing out that you could go even further than 10 and not hurt yourself....ideally.....but as you noted as well, body type starts to come into play, and age, and genetics.....and it changes the formula on what is possible and realistic.