City Issues subpoeanas for sermons..

Did those Pastors have the necessary registration and concealed sermon permits?

Whatever happened to separation of church and state.  lol

Personally, I hadn't heard of these cases but I do find them interesting.  It ultimately boils down to how the discrimination laws are written and if they're ultimately constitutional or not.  Lawmakers can make laws to make anything illegal and try to shake people down, but ultimately it's up to the courts to determine if the action is legal or not.

In this case, I don't know enough about how the law is written to comment on a church sermon espousing the Biblical definition of marriage or Homosexuality being a sin as violating the ordinance.  However I can say that I would have a hard time believing anything like this would pass the courts successfully due to first amendment freedoms.

My gut tells me this is more about trying to pressure churches to not talk about marriage and homosexuality.  Good luck with that.  ;-)

Must be a bunch of people in Houston who need a hobby.

I find it strange that both the mayor and city attorney are saying they did not know anything about the subpoena's until yesterday and that it is originally to broad so they are narrowing it down, which to me means they are ditching the word sermon...

"This means the city will still seek to collect any communication issued by these pastors that mention the petition against the hotly contested HERO act"

So they are looking for the information a church may have handed out???  Is it that hard to find? why not go to the church and just ask???

Ask yourself, what would it cost the church to respond to subpoena's and what would it cost to just answer some questions? jmho

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by crusevegas

Originally posted by jford2309

I find it strange that both the mayor and city attorney are saying they did not know anything about the subpoena's until yesterday and that it is originally to broad so they are narrowing it down, which to me means they are ditching the word sermon...

 

"This means the city will still seek to collect any communication issued by these pastors that mention the petition against the hotly contested HERO act"

So they are looking for the information a church may have handed out???  Is it that hard to find? why not go to the church and just ask???

 

 

Ask yourself, what would it cost the church to respond to subpoena's and what would it cost to just answer some questions? jmho

Considering these churches aren't paying a dime in taxes, yeah, it's the least they could do. btw, I'll firmly stand on the churchs' side to spew whatever the heck they want to, even if I don't agree with their message. That said, if they decide to spread their message of intolerance in public schools or government buildings, I'll rail against them with unchecked fury...which usually amounts to me posting something that goes mostly unread in Cup o' Joe.

As far as taxes go, I think all NPO should be taxed and that would be part of my 69,999 pages to be deleted in the current tax code.

I don't know that I agree or disagree on the later part that you mentioned. It would really depend on the what specifically was taking place. To summarize my stance I believe in the freedom of religion, not from it. Tolerance. I don't think a kid should be kicked out public school because he draws a picture of a gun or because he has a bible with him. Now if a teacher in a pubic school starts preaching the gospel of the lord, that's another matter. 

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by crusevegas

Originally posted by jford2309

I find it strange that both the mayor and city attorney are saying they did not know anything about the subpoena's until yesterday and that it is originally to broad so they are narrowing it down, which to me means they are ditching the word sermon...

 

"This means the city will still seek to collect any communication issued by these pastors that mention the petition against the hotly contested HERO act"

So they are looking for the information a church may have handed out???  Is it that hard to find? why not go to the church and just ask???

 

 

Ask yourself, what would it cost the church to respond to subpoena's and what would it cost to just answer some questions? jmho

Considering these churches aren't paying a dime in taxes, yeah, it's the least they could do. btw, I'll firmly stand on the churchs' side to spew whatever the heck they want to, even if I don't agree with their message. That said, if they decide to spread their message of intolerance in public schools or government buildings, I'll rail against them with unchecked fury...which usually amounts to me posting something that goes mostly unread in Cup o' Joe.

I always get a kick out of the church being called intolerant because it refuses to say something that is a sin is not a sin. 
The whole idea of the Christian church is to teach people about the Bible and what's in it.  The message is very consistent and clear on what forms of sexuality are considered sin and what are not.  So, it would be silly (not intolerant) to expect any church to say anything other than what's in the Bible.  If a church (and I know there are some) waters down the Bible and says that "Jesus was wrong, and here's what he really meant about sexuality..." then any Christian should run from that church because it's now a cult with the leader of the church creating his own doctrine that is counter to the Bible.

I know you're ok with churches saying whatever they say and their right to do so, but I object to the use of the derogatory connotation of the church being "intolerant" when it comes to sexual issues that are counter to the Bible.

btw, looks like the mayor is backing down:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/15/houston-backs-off-church-sermon-subpoenas-in-trans/

There was a guy in my high school who constantly drew pictures of fighter jets......I don't know what that would get you today, but that kid ended up being a Naval  Jet Fighter Pilot and eventually became an instructor at Top Gun school.  True story......and crazy as hell.

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by crusevegas

Originally posted by jford2309

I find it strange that both the mayor and city attorney are saying they did not know anything about the subpoena's until yesterday and that it is originally to broad so they are narrowing it down, which to me means they are ditching the word sermon...

 

"This means the city will still seek to collect any communication issued by these pastors that mention the petition against the hotly contested HERO act"

So they are looking for the information a church may have handed out???  Is it that hard to find? why not go to the church and just ask???

 

 

Ask yourself, what would it cost the church to respond to subpoena's and what would it cost to just answer some questions? jmho

Considering these churches aren't paying a dime in taxes, yeah, it's the least they could do. btw, I'll firmly stand on the churchs' side to spew whatever the heck they want to, even if I don't agree with their message. That said, if they decide to spread their message of intolerance in public schools or government buildings, I'll rail against them with unchecked fury...which usually amounts to me posting something that goes mostly unread in Cup o' Joe.

I always get a kick out of the church being called intolerant because it refuses to say something that is a sin is not a sin. 
The whole idea of the Christian church is to teach people about the Bible and what's in it.  The message is very consistent and clear on what forms of sexuality are considered sin and what are not.  So, it would be silly (not intolerant) to expect any church to say anything other than what's in the Bible.  If a church (and I know there are some) waters down the Bible and says that "Jesus was wrong, and here's what he really meant about sexuality..." then any Christian should run from that church because it's now a cult with the leader of the church creating his own doctrine that is counter to the Bible.

I know you're ok with churches saying whatever they say and their right to do so, but I object to the use of the derogatory connotation of the church being "intolerant" when it comes to sexual issues that are counter to the Bible.

 

 

Tony, you'd have to admit it's kinda funny though what's picked and chosen out of the "Good Book." In the same line it declares homosexuality to be an abomination, it also says eating shellfish is an abomination. I also don't see religious folks advising the public to take their new wives who aren't virgins, out to the edge of town and stone them to death. That said, I don't care if churches are intolerant...it's kind of what they've always done. The problem I have with the churches is they aren't consistent. Yes, as per the bible, homosexuality is a sin...but the part left out is LOTS of types of sexual behavior are sinful, buuuuut, like I said before, people pick and choose.

Haven't we had this discussion before?

People who don't understand or believe in the Bible are the ones that pick and choose, not the Christians.  It's a very common technique today to take a verse or law from the old testament completely out of context in an attempt to dismiss the integrity of the Bible.
However, if you actually read and study the Bible you'll find that this argument is kind of silly because you're comparing apples and oranges.

There are three types of laws in the Bible.
Moral Law: These laws deal with right and wrong such as the ten commandments.  These laws are absolutely binding to all Christians today.
Things such as incest, adultery (in mind and body), pre-marital sex, homosexuality, etc. are all moral laws that are in the old testament and affirmed in the new testament.  No Christian is able to keep all of these moral laws because they're a depiction of righteous living in Gods eyes.  We all fall short of that, and any Christian that tells you they don't is lying.  Thus, we need a savior who forgives us of our sin's if we seek that forgiveness through him.
The vast majority of our laws in America are based on the Moral laws in the Bible as well because most of them just make sense.

Ceremonial law:  These laws are related to sacrifices and ceremonies that the Israel people were to partake.  Things such as sin offerings to be forgiven, etc.  These laws were fulfilled by Jesus who was the ultimate sacrifice and are no longer necessary for Christians.  In other words, the Bible says to sacrifice a lamb in the old testament to atone for my sins, but Jesus died and was sacrificed for me, so I don't have to do that. (and it would be really messy)

Judicial/Civil Law: These laws, which are considered the Mosaic laws are mostly related to diet, hygene, tattoos, dress and such.  They were put in place for the Israeli people who were primarily nomadic and were meant to protect them from eating bad food as well as generally keeping in line.  The tattoo one is misquoted the most frequent, but at the time tattoos were often used by heathens to depict idols or gods and had nothing to do with esthetic tattooing which people do today.  It is consistent across virtually all Christian denominations that the Mosaic laws were abrogated by Christs death.

BTW, I missed you CD.  I need to wander by BT a little more often.  I kind of feel like Political Joe has fallen off because I stopped posting so much.  lol

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by donw

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy

Originally posted by crusevegas

Originally posted by jford2309

I find it strange that both the mayor and city attorney are saying they did not know anything about the subpoena's until yesterday and that it is originally to broad so they are narrowing it down, which to me means they are ditching the word sermon...

 

"This means the city will still seek to collect any communication issued by these pastors that mention the petition against the hotly contested HERO act"

So they are looking for the information a church may have handed out???  Is it that hard to find? why not go to the church and just ask???

 

 

Ask yourself, what would it cost the church to respond to subpoena's and what would it cost to just answer some questions? jmho

Considering these churches aren't paying a dime in taxes, yeah, it's the least they could do. btw, I'll firmly stand on the churchs' side to spew whatever the heck they want to, even if I don't agree with their message. That said, if they decide to spread their message of intolerance in public schools or government buildings, I'll rail against them with unchecked fury...which usually amounts to me posting something that goes mostly unread in Cup o' Joe.

I always get a kick out of the church being called intolerant because it refuses to say something that is a sin is not a sin. 
The whole idea of the Christian church is to teach people about the Bible and what's in it.  The message is very consistent and clear on what forms of sexuality are considered sin and what are not.  So, it would be silly (not intolerant) to expect any church to say anything other than what's in the Bible.  If a church (and I know there are some) waters down the Bible and says that "Jesus was wrong, and here's what he really meant about sexuality..." then any Christian should run from that church because it's now a cult with the leader of the church creating his own doctrine that is counter to the Bible.

I know you're ok with churches saying whatever they say and their right to do so, but I object to the use of the derogatory connotation of the church being "intolerant" when it comes to sexual issues that are counter to the Bible.

 

 

I'm an atheist. My 17 year old son came out as gay three years ago. (My son is also an atheist.) My wife attends a liberal Christian church that believes that the bible was written by men, is subject to interpretation, and is best read for its symbolic meaning rather than its literal meaning. This church welcomes LGBT people and has quite a large and active group of LGBT members. The congregation recently walked in Calgary's gay pride parade carrying large church banners. My wife and I walked with other church members in the pride parade. (Which was quite fun.) At one point my wife noticed that a young woman watching the parade was standing on the sidewalk crying. My wife stopped to comfort her and ask what was wrong. The young woman responded that she was crying because it was so beautiful to see a church openly accepting LGBT people. It was a very cool moment! Don

The more I hear from Canadians the more impressed I get... ...now if it wasn't so dang COLD up there! By the time global warming makes Canada habitable to me, I'll be too old to enjoy it! Dang it!

Based on the last 10 years I'd say Canada's climate is more likely to come to you first.  :-D

Moments ago, from the Twitter:

 AnniseParker: Never intended to interfere w/ pastors & their sermons or an intrusion on religion. Our discovery motion now clearly focused on petition.