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2012-08-30 7:58 PM

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Subject: Impossible.
http://www.woai.com/mostpopular/story/Armed-bystander-stops-stabbin...

Obviously they meant to say the guy with a CCW took it out and started shooting randomly as soon as he got onto school property.

I figured there wasn't enough horse hockey being thrown around in the CoJ yet



2012-08-30 8:40 PM
in reply to: #4389052

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Sensei
Sin City
Subject: RE: Impossible.
Now THAT is reasonable belief that life or serious bodily harm is occurring. Good or him. He's a hero in my book. It's an interesting comparison. In one case, someone is actually getting stabbed/killed (and still may die) and the gun owner chose not to kill, and another gets punched and decided it is time to kill. I think you can make good choices, even under pressure killing may be the best choice at times, but it doesn't have to be the only choice.
2012-08-30 9:03 PM
in reply to: #4389096

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Elite
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Cleveland
Subject: RE: Impossible.
Kido - 2012-08-30 9:40 PM

Now THAT is reasonable belief that life or serious bodily harm is occurring. Good or him. He's a hero in my book. It's an interesting comparison. In one case, someone is actually getting stabbed/killed (and still may die) and the gun owner chose not to kill, and another gets punched and decided it is time to kill. I think you can make good choices, even under pressure killing may be the best choice at times, but it doesn't have to be the only choice.



Just emphasizes the point that guns don't kill... people do.
2012-08-30 9:20 PM
in reply to: #4389052

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Expert
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Greenville, SC
Subject: RE: Impossible.

in SC the person who drew the gun would be in jail right now.  

the state law states if you pull the gun in self defense or defense of another you have to pull the trigger or face charges of brandishing a weapon.  the idea is if you don't have the pull the trigger then a gun isn't really needed and no ones life is in danger, and it also keeps people from pulling a gun on people and hoping that deters them without ever having the intention of pulling the trigger.  also taking someone "into custody" after pulling a gun on them can be ruled as kidnapping no matter why you did it, its just not likely that you would actually get charged with that as no jury would uphold those charges given the circumstance, just some warnings i was given in my CWP class.

i do think this is a great example of why firearms are important in the hands of individuals and should remain there.  i feel like most crimes with firearms are committed by people who can't get them through legal mean anyway, so tightening restrictions on people who legally obtain them is useless as it does nothing to fix the issue.  

2012-08-31 2:14 AM
in reply to: #4389139

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Subject: RE: Impossible.
Clempson - 2012-08-30 10:20 PM

in SC the person who drew the gun would be in jail right now.  

the state law states if you pull the gun in self defense or defense of another you have to pull the trigger or face charges of brandishing a weapon.  the idea is if you don't have the pull the trigger then a gun isn't really needed and no ones life is in danger, and it also keeps people from pulling a gun on people and hoping that deters them without ever having the intention of pulling the trigger.  also taking someone "into custody" after pulling a gun on them can be ruled as kidnapping no matter why you did it, its just not likely that you would actually get charged with that as no jury would uphold those charges given the circumstance, just some warnings i was given in my CWP class.

i do think this is a great example of why firearms are important in the hands of individuals and should remain there.  i feel like most crimes with firearms are committed by people who can't get them through legal mean anyway, so tightening restrictions on people who legally obtain them is useless as it does nothing to fix the issue.  



That is one of the dumbest laws I've ever heard of.

Guy pulls knife on girl (gender just to have a difference between the players)
Girl pulls gun on guy in defense
As girl pulls gun, guy drops knife and starts to run away
Deadly force is no longer warranted, why in the hell should she legally have to pull the trigger? In most states she would then be initiating a new confrontation as the mugging ended as soon as guy turned away.

2012-08-31 3:50 AM
in reply to: #4389139

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Subject: RE: Impossible.
Clempson - 2012-08-30 10:20 PM

in SC the person who drew the gun would be in jail right now.  

the state law states if you pull the gun in self defense or defense of another you have to pull the trigger or face charges of brandishing a weapon.



I'm trying to find anything at all to back this statement up.

For instance this one happened long enough ago for them to have charged everyone they're going to charge:
http://www.goupstate.com/article/20120325/ARTICLES/120329781/1112?t...

Strange that this is one of the quotes from and about the Sheriff :
During a news conference Sunday, Wright commended Aaron Guyton for having a concealed weapons permit.

“We're very fortunate we didn't have gruesome scenes to work there,” Wright said. “I like the fact that a concealed weapons permit holder was prepared to protect the worshippers.”


Yes, there are others where the bad guy was scared off just at the sight of a firearm and no shots were needed. Odd that none of the people drawing those firearms were charged with anything.



2012-08-31 8:18 AM
in reply to: #4389139

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Subject: RE: Impossible.
Clempson - 2012-08-30 8:20 PM

in SC the person who drew the gun would be in jail right now.  

the state law states if you pull the gun in self defense or defense of another you have to pull the trigger or face charges of brandishing a weapon.  the idea is if you don't have the pull the trigger then a gun isn't really needed and no ones life is in danger, and it also keeps people from pulling a gun on people and hoping that deters them without ever having the intention of pulling the trigger.  also taking someone "into custody" after pulling a gun on them can be ruled as kidnapping no matter why you did it, its just not likely that you would actually get charged with that as no jury would uphold those charges given the circumstance, just some warnings i was given in my CWP class.

i do think this is a great example of why firearms are important in the hands of individuals and should remain there.  i feel like most crimes with firearms are committed by people who can't get them through legal mean anyway, so tightening restrictions on people who legally obtain them is useless as it does nothing to fix the issue.  

That does not pass the smell test at all. I mean you are just posting and you didn't write it and I'm going off what you say... but that makes no sense what so ever.... Police officers pull their weapon ona regular basis...is that brandishing.... and citizens arrest is not kidnapping no matter how you slice it. If what you say is true I can't even comprehend how that actually became law.... I mean heck just don't allow CC.

And I mean you kind of said it... if no reasonable jury would ever convict anyone of it... then the law is meaningless... even look at vigilanteism.... lots of people understand it, but it is illegal, and most people understand that, and will convict.

2012-08-31 8:22 AM
in reply to: #4389258

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Subject: RE: Impossible.
DanielG - 2012-08-31 1:14 AM
Clempson - 2012-08-30 10:20 PM

in SC the person who drew the gun would be in jail right now.  

the state law states if you pull the gun in self defense or defense of another you have to pull the trigger or face charges of brandishing a weapon.  the idea is if you don't have the pull the trigger then a gun isn't really needed and no ones life is in danger, and it also keeps people from pulling a gun on people and hoping that deters them without ever having the intention of pulling the trigger.  also taking someone "into custody" after pulling a gun on them can be ruled as kidnapping no matter why you did it, its just not likely that you would actually get charged with that as no jury would uphold those charges given the circumstance, just some warnings i was given in my CWP class.

i do think this is a great example of why firearms are important in the hands of individuals and should remain there.  i feel like most crimes with firearms are committed by people who can't get them through legal mean anyway, so tightening restrictions on people who legally obtain them is useless as it does nothing to fix the issue.  

That is one of the dumbest laws I've ever heard of. Guy pulls knife on girl (gender just to have a difference between the players) Girl pulls gun on guy in defense As girl pulls gun, guy drops knife and starts to run away Deadly force is no longer warranted, why in the hell should she legally have to pull the trigger? In most states she would then be initiating a new confrontation as the mugging ended as soon as guy turned away.

Ya... there are laws on the books, but when someone's life is in danger.... then it is a different story.

Even here in Colorado, as everywhere a felon can not own, posses, or use a firearm. However, if the felon's life is in dander, the felon CAN NOT be charged with a crime if that person uses a firearm to protect their life, or the lives of others.



Edited by powerman 2012-08-31 8:22 AM
2012-08-31 10:56 AM
in reply to: #4389475

Subject: RE: Impossible.
2012-08-31 12:02 PM
in reply to: #4389781

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Sensei
Sin City
Subject: RE: Impossible.

The law is the law and it's in the books.  Justified.  But now it's a different story.

In one thread, if the law supports the shooting, it's the law and justified, if it doesn't sopport a shooting, it's up for debate?

That's fine.  Understandable.  Everyone will adjust an arugment to support their case as needed.  Seems a bit confusing at times though.

2012-08-31 12:18 PM
in reply to: #4389940

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Subject: RE: Impossible.
Kido - 2012-08-31 1:02 PM

The law is the law and it's in the books.  Justified.  But now it's a different story.

In one thread, if the law supports the shooting, it's the law and justified, if it doesn't sopport a shooting, it's up for debate?

That's fine.  Understandable.  Everyone will adjust an arugment to support their case as needed.  Seems a bit confusing at times though.



Huh?

As far as I can tell in SC's law and in current cases of self defense, there is no law as stated, so no. Also, the law as being discussed includes no shooting at all so it actually doesn't matter whether it supports a shooting or not.

You had to stretch too far this time to find a point to make.



2012-08-31 12:31 PM
in reply to: #4389258

Iron Donkey
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, Wisconsin
Subject: RE: Impossible.
DanielG - 2012-08-31 2:14 AM
Clempson - 2012-08-30 10:20 PM

in SC the person who drew the gun would be in jail right now.  

the state law states if you pull the gun in self defense or defense of another you have to pull the trigger or face charges of brandishing a weapon.  the idea is if you don't have the pull the trigger then a gun isn't really needed and no ones life is in danger, and it also keeps people from pulling a gun on people and hoping that deters them without ever having the intention of pulling the trigger.  also taking someone "into custody" after pulling a gun on them can be ruled as kidnapping no matter why you did it, its just not likely that you would actually get charged with that as no jury would uphold those charges given the circumstance, just some warnings i was given in my CWP class.

i do think this is a great example of why firearms are important in the hands of individuals and should remain there.  i feel like most crimes with firearms are committed by people who can't get them through legal mean anyway, so tightening restrictions on people who legally obtain them is useless as it does nothing to fix the issue.  

That is one of the dumbest laws I've ever heard of. Guy pulls knife on girl (gender just to have a difference between the players) Girl pulls gun on guy in defense As girl pulls gun, guy drops knife and starts to run away Deadly force is no longer warranted, why in the hell should she legally have to pull the trigger? In most states she would then be initiating a new confrontation as the mugging ended as soon as guy turned away.

Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

2012-08-31 1:53 PM
in reply to: #4389052

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Subject: RE: Impossible.
Ya, there are laws on the book that specifically say that in a life threatening situations it is different. That does not come from me, it's the law. I suppose it is fun to twist what is said to see what shape can be made, but I gave examples of the law stating what applies in what situation.

Edited by powerman 2012-08-31 1:54 PM
2012-08-31 2:23 PM
in reply to: #4389096

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Subject: RE: Impossible.

Kido - 2012-08-30 6:40 PM Now THAT is reasonable belief that life or serious bodily harm is occurring. Good or him. He's a hero in my book. It's an interesting comparison. In one case, someone is actually getting stabbed/killed (and still may die) and the gun owner chose not to kill, and another gets punched and decided it is time to kill. I think you can make good choices, even under pressure killing may be the best choice at times, but it doesn't have to be the only choice.

 

Carrying a gun on school property, he should be thrown in jail for packing heat in a "gun free zone" Dude with the knife should be offered a plea deal to walk free if he testifies against the guy brandishing a gun on school property.

2012-08-31 3:07 PM
in reply to: #4390291

Subject: RE: Impossible.
crusevegas - 2012-08-31 2:23 PM

Kido - 2012-08-30 6:40 PM Now THAT is reasonable belief that life or serious bodily harm is occurring. Good or him. He's a hero in my book. It's an interesting comparison. In one case, someone is actually getting stabbed/killed (and still may die) and the gun owner chose not to kill, and another gets punched and decided it is time to kill. I think you can make good choices, even under pressure killing may be the best choice at times, but it doesn't have to be the only choice.

 

Carrying a gun on school property, he should be thrown in jail for packing heat in a "gun free zone" Dude with the knife should be offered a plea deal to walk free if he testifies against the guy brandishing a gun on school property.

I guess that depends on the laws in that state.  In Michigan we have gun free school zones.  You can still carry in them as long as you stay in your car.  So a parent can drop off thier child and carry thier weapon.  They cannot get out of the car and open the door or anything, then they are in violation of the law.  If for some odd reason I was carrying when I dropped off my kid and seen someone being stabbed.  I think I woudl take my chances with the violation to help the person being stabbed. 

However I don't carry on school grounds.  I don't feel the need and I would hate to forget and step out of the car.  Oh and my wife that works for the school district would probabley somehow loose her job.

2012-08-31 3:09 PM
in reply to: #4389096

Subject: RE: Impossible.

Kido - 2012-08-30 8:40 PM Now THAT is reasonable belief that life or serious bodily harm is occurring. Good or him. He's a hero in my book. It's an interesting comparison. In one case, someone is actually getting stabbed/killed (and still may die) and the gun owner chose not to kill, and another gets punched and decided it is time to kill. I think you can make good choices, even under pressure killing may be the best choice at times, but it doesn't have to be the only choice.

The person being punched was pined back in his seat, seat belt still on the attacker opened the door and was forcing himself inot the truck beating on the guy.  A little more then punching him though the open window.



2012-08-31 3:59 PM
in reply to: #4390291

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Subject: RE: Impossible.
crusevegas - 2012-08-31 3:23 PM

Kido - 2012-08-30 6:40 PM Now THAT is reasonable belief that life or serious bodily harm is occurring. Good or him. He's a hero in my book. It's an interesting comparison. In one case, someone is actually getting stabbed/killed (and still may die) and the gun owner chose not to kill, and another gets punched and decided it is time to kill. I think you can make good choices, even under pressure killing may be the best choice at times, but it doesn't have to be the only choice.

 

Carrying a gun on school property, he should be thrown in jail for packing heat in a "gun free zone" Dude with the knife should be offered a plea deal to walk free if he testifies against the guy brandishing a gun on school property.



Huh? No, you can have one on you in your car while you're dropping off or picking up a student. Not illegal.

What "gun free zone" are you talking about? Federally? Doesn't matter when someone has a CCW issued by the state.

2012-08-31 4:24 PM
in reply to: #4390460

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Subject: RE: Impossible.
DanielG - 2012-08-31 1:59 PM
crusevegas - 2012-08-31 3:23 PM

Kido - 2012-08-30 6:40 PM Now THAT is reasonable belief that life or serious bodily harm is occurring. Good or him. He's a hero in my book. It's an interesting comparison. In one case, someone is actually getting stabbed/killed (and still may die) and the gun owner chose not to kill, and another gets punched and decided it is time to kill. I think you can make good choices, even under pressure killing may be the best choice at times, but it doesn't have to be the only choice.

 

Carrying a gun on school property, he should be thrown in jail for packing heat in a "gun free zone" Dude with the knife should be offered a plea deal to walk free if he testifies against the guy brandishing a gun on school property.

Huh? No, you can have one on you in your car while you're dropping off or picking up a student. Not illegal. What "gun free zone" are you talking about? Federally? Doesn't matter when someone has a CCW issued by the state.

Did that statement really need the sarc font? Appears that's an affirmative.

I said it in jest, but if you think because you have a CCW you can go anywhere, even when there are signs or laws sating otherwise I would encourage you to do a little more research.

What is a "Gun Free Zone", well if you want my description, it's a place that people who want to commit mass murder target because law abiding citizens are prohibited from having a firearm.

2012-08-31 4:26 PM
in reply to: #4389052

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Subject: RE: Impossible.
and the TX statute:

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm
Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:

(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;
(...)
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.


Now if they really wanted to they could get him on this one:
Texas Education Code - Section 37.125. Exhibition Of Firearms

§ 37.125. EXHIBITION OF FIREARMS. (a) A person commits
an offense if the person, by exhibiting, using, or threatening to
exhibit or use a firearm, interferes with the normal use of a
building or portion of a campus or of a school bus being used to
transport children to or from school-sponsored activities of a
private or public school.
(b) An offense under this section is a third degree felony.

Added by Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 260, § 1, eff. May 30, 1995.


But somehow I don't think they're even considering charging him. All laws can be broken in an emergency situation if required. It's just who determines the severity of the "emergency" and whether you can get the DA and/or jury to agree it was justified.



2012-08-31 4:29 PM
in reply to: #4390505

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Subject: RE: Impossible.
crusevegas - 2012-08-31 5:24 PM

Did that statement really need the sarc font? Appears that's an affirmative.

I said it in jest, but if you think because you have a CCW you can go anywhere, even when there are signs or laws sating otherwise I would encourage you to do a little more research.

What is a "Gun Free Zone", well if you want my description, it's a place that people who want to commit mass murder target because law abiding citizens are prohibited from having a firearm.



You may have said it in jest but that's being forwarded as a serious suggestion in quite a few circles. I tend to take it seriously unless it's an obvious snarky comment. We have no sense of humour that we're aware of and all that.

2012-08-31 5:09 PM
in reply to: #4390513

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Subject: RE: Impossible.
DanielG - 2012-08-31 2:29 PM
crusevegas - 2012-08-31 5:24 PM

Did that statement really need the sarc font? Appears that's an affirmative.

I said it in jest, but if you think because you have a CCW you can go anywhere, even when there are signs or laws sating otherwise I would encourage you to do a little more research.

What is a "Gun Free Zone", well if you want my description, it's a place that people who want to commit mass murder target because law abiding citizens are prohibited from having a firearm.

You may have said it in jest but that's being forwarded as a serious suggestion in quite a few circles. I tend to take it seriously unless it's an obvious snarky comment. We have no sense of humour that we're aware of and all that.

Even the part about the perp being given a pass for testifying? I thought that was the part that made it obvious, obviously I was wrong.

What circles are saying he should be charged?



2012-08-31 6:09 PM
in reply to: #4390583

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Subject: RE: Impossible.
crusevegas - 2012-08-31 6:09 PM

What circles are saying he should be charged?



VPC types. Of course it's a bit difficult to take them seriously when they're one of two FFLs in Washington DC. I think I'm going to get all my buddies to write and ask how much they would charge to transfer a firearm:

Federal Firearms License Results

License Number:
1-54-XXX-XX-XX-00725

Expiration Date:
03/01/2014

License Name:
SUGARMANN, JOSHUA ALAN

Trade Name:


Premise Address:
1730 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW #1014
WASHINGTON
DC - 20036

Mailing Address:
1730 RHODE ISLAND AVE NW #1014
WASHINGTON
DC - 20036
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