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swim video critique
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 2007-05-16 1:55 AM |
Expert  721   Chandler, AZ |  Subject: swim video critiqueSo here are my swim videos from a few weeks ago... (This is not flattering at all.) In this first video, the first lap is Lev 2, second lap is Lev 3. Notice how my balance gets progressively worse. Not that it's even superb when I start off! (Ack!) Also notice how I hold my drive arm still for a second on each stroke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apqLVnHyGNI Here, i'm swimming Lev 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2SO_sKsf-8 There is nothing good about my balance there. (I like to think that more muscle that I've developed in my legs has made them sink more + loss of fat... ha...) Time for the 100 @ Lev 4 was 1:54. I've been working on my balance and lack of continuous movement for driving hand the last few weeks. (ie, I keep the driving arm moving, to create a more useful catch higher above my head.) If anyone sees anything else that i could improve on, please let me know! Edited by robin314159 2007-05-16 1:59 AM |
 2007-05-16 2:52 AM in reply to: #802232 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2007-05-16 9:44 AM in reply to: #802232 |
| Expert 623 Issaquah, WA, | Subject: RE: swim video critique First of all, there are some things that you are doing really well. You are not crossing over. You have a good roll. You have a high elbow. Your head is down. I agree with you that you hold your drive arm still for too long. This causes you to start you catch late. It looks like you drop your elbow a little bit during this pause. Think about pulling with your arm more than pulling with your hands. Fist drills will help with this. I think once you correct this, your balance with improve. Also, it looks like you bring your head forward when you breathe. This could also contribute to your hips sinking. Keep your head down and breath into your shoulder. Only bring half of your face out. Overall you look really good. Only some minor tweaking. |
| 2007-05-16 12:26 PM in reply to: #802569 |
Member 53 | Subject: RE: swim video critique harmony - 2007-05-16 10:44 AM First of all, there are some things that you are doing really well. You are not crossing over. You have a good roll. You have a high elbow. Your head is down. To me it looks like your head is down to much. This slows you down, especially when you go to breath. You first have to raise your head and then turn to the side. I was always taught that the water line should hit your head a little below your hairline. This should give you the proper head position to create the wake around your head that you breath in. This may explain it a little better then what I have: "HEAD and TRIMING the BOAT ---------------Your head is the main factor that controls how your body rides (planes) in the water. This is analogous to adjusting the prop angle (trim) of a speedboat in order to achieve maximum speed and efficiency. Traditionally, you want the waterline to be in the middle of your forehead so that your eyes are focused 10-20 ft in front of you (you *should not* look directly at the bottom). A false sense of speed and power will be realized if your chin is too close to your chest (bury your head or look directly at the bottom). This is because your head is to low and actually acting like a snowplow (creating extremely high resistance). In order to maintain the proper trim for long-distance swims, the appropriate neck and trapezius muscles must be properly developed (see Swimming Tip for Triathletes #3). Note: a full-legged wetsuit will give abnormally high buoyancy to the legs for a proficient swimmer. The trim (head position) will need to be adjusted accordingly (look an additional 5-10 ft ahead)." Found at http://www.triatomics.org/swim_guide/pat.php |
| 2007-05-16 2:13 PM in reply to: #802952 |
| Expert 623 Issaquah, WA, | Subject: RE: swim video critique bmullen - 2007-05-16 10:26 AM harmony - 2007-05-16 10:44 AM First of all, there are some things that you are doing really well. You are not crossing over. You have a good roll. You have a high elbow. Your head is down. To me it looks like your head is down to much. This slows you down, especially when you go to breath. You first have to raise your head and then turn to the side. I was always taught that the water line should hit your head a little below your hairline. This should give you the proper head position to create the wake around your head that you breath in. There is a lot of controversy about head up vs. head down for swimming. There are some sources that say you should keep your head up because your head causes drag on the water. Others say that you should keep your head down because it keeps your spine straight, your body in a neutral position and your hips up. I go with the head down position with your eyes looking at the bottom of the pool because when you are looking ahead, it throws your body off balance so you either sink or compensate for sinking by kicking more and use more energy. Try this. Stand up and put your arms over your head in a streamline position. Now pretend that the bottom of the pool is a wall in front of you. Look at the wall. How does your body feel? Do you feel any stress on any particular part of your body? Now lift your head towards the ceiling. Do you feel any difference? Which position feels more comfortable? I like to think of my body in the water like a level. The more straight my body is, the more level it is. The more in line my head is to my body, the more level it is. If I were to, for example, point my head really far down so it is looking at my feet, my shoulders would sink. If I lift my head to look at the wall, my hips sink. |
| 2007-05-16 2:14 PM in reply to: #802569 |
Coach 9167  Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: swim video critique harmony - 2007-05-16 8:44 AM First of all, there are some things that you are doing really well. You are not crossing over. You have a good roll. You have a high elbow. Your head is down. But not high enough. Go here and watch the High Elbow Catch (HEC) video http://www.haloswimtraining.com/guest/index.php WHen I slow your video down, at the point when your upper arm is about 90 out from your body, your hand is only a few inches below your elbow. Imagine the difference in cross-sectional area that can catch the water if at this point your hand/wrist is directly below your elbow, so that your forearm points straight up and down in the water while your upper arm is parallel to the pool bottom and directly out to the side of your body. Of course when swimming in 3 dimensions, the above description will not be exactly correct as your body will be rotating, but try the position while swimming or floatingg flat or on dry ground. you can triple the surface area of your catch by making that small change. Overall, though, you have a very nice, smooth looking stroke! |
| 2007-05-16 2:15 PM in reply to: #802232 |
| Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: swim video critique I am just about to leave my office but I'll look at those later on and post some comments  |
| 2007-05-16 2:17 PM in reply to: #802952 |
| Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: swim video critique bmullen - 2007-05-16 11:26 AM "HEAD and TRIMING the BOAT ---------------Your head is the main factor that controls how your body rides (planes) in the water. This is analogous to adjusting the prop angle (trim) of a speedboat in order to achieve maximum speed and efficiency. Traditionally, you want the waterline to be in the middle of your forehead so that your eyes are focused 10-20 ft in front of you (you *should not* look directly at the bottom). A false sense of speed and power will be realized if your chin is too close to your chest (bury your head or look directly at the bottom). This is because your head is to low and actually acting like a snowplow (creating extremely high resistance). In order to maintain the proper trim for long-distance swims, the appropriate neck and trapezius muscles must be properly developed (see Swimming Tip for Triathletes #3). Note: a full-legged wetsuit will give abnormally high buoyancy to the legs for a proficient swimmer. The trim (head position) will need to be adjusted accordingly (look an additional 5-10 ft ahead)." Found at http://www.triatomics.org/swim_guide/pat.php I also am not sure I agree with the above description. A downward looking head may create more drag, but with the tradeoff of overall better body position and balance in teh water. For a competitive swimmer who has good balance, can maintain his/her hips at teh surface of the water and STILL manipulated head position without causing changes in the rest of the body position, I suppose I cant argue with this advice. But for most people, changingg head position will change body position as well. Of course there is also the small subset of people who DESPITE lookingg downward and tucking their chin, still don't "get it", and still have sinking hips. Those people need some hands on instruction! |
| 2007-05-16 2:22 PM in reply to: #803201 |
| Expert 623 Issaquah, WA, | Subject: RE: swim video critique AdventureBear - 2007-05-16 12:14 PM harmony - 2007-05-16 8:44 AM First of all, there are some things that you are doing really well. You are not crossing over. You have a good roll. You have a high elbow. Your head is down. But not high enough. Go here and watch the High Elbow Catch (HEC) video http://www.haloswimtraining.com/guest/index.php WHen I slow your video down, at the point when your upper arm is about 90 out from your body, your hand is only a few inches below your elbow. Imagine the difference in cross-sectional area that can catch the water if at this point your hand/wrist is directly below your elbow, so that your forearm points straight up and down in the water while your upper arm is parallel to the pool bottom and directly out to the side of your body. Of course when swimming in 3 dimensions, the above description will not be exactly correct as your body will be rotating, but try the position while swimming or floatingg flat or on dry ground. you can triple the surface area of your catch by making that small change. Overall, though, you have a very nice, smooth looking stroke! I agree AB. Robin's elbow is not high enough. But the fact that she is bending her elbow is good. |
| 2007-05-16 2:39 PM in reply to: #802232 |
| Extreme Veteran 787 Glendora, CA. | Subject: RE: swim video critique Hey Robin! Ooooohhhhh what a brave soul! I have a video from a swim clinic, but I paid $10,000 to the instructor to keep it off of YouTube (kidding). I will look at your video at home this evening, however, by the sounds of it, you have a similar issue like me (although mine is probably more pronounced). My legs and lower body act as an anchor. I found that learning "front quadrant" swimming assisted in raising my hips, creating more of an aerodynamic line in the water and reducing the effort overall. |
| 2007-05-16 3:08 PM in reply to: #803259 |
| Expert 721 Chandler, AZ | Subject: RE: swim video critique Hey AB and harmony, thanks for the input so far. I will be working on this stuff. Cyclingmaniac - haha. Well, I'm gonna make the videos private after this thread has run its circuit. I don't want videos of me swimming eternally available for people to find for the same reason that I don't go hang out around non-cyclists in public in my bike shorts....  Cyclingmaniac - 2007-05-16 12:39 PM Hey Robin! Ooooohhhhh what a brave soul! I have a video from a swim clinic, but I paid $10,000 to the instructor to keep it off of YouTube (kidding). |
| 2007-05-16 3:46 PM in reply to: #802232 |
| Regular 100 | Subject: RE: swim video critique You should "catch" the water more. Basically your hand enters the water by spearing too much (that's partially my taste, but it's definitely not speeding you up). As you spear the water, your hand is in a nice aerodynamic V, but you keep that V and never bend your wrist in the first part of the stroke. Because of that, the first part of your stroke has a large upward pressing component, which is partly slowing you down and contributing to your slightly upright body position. Check out this video of grant hackett's stroke http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZdx_WVnG_M&NR=1first off look at how his whole arm enters the water almost at once. Then, very briefly, he bends his wrist down to catch the water, then his wrist straightens, his elbows stay very high and his hands stay inside of them. Compare that to your stroke coming into the wall, the most obvious difference is in the elbow height/arm angle, but you can also see how you're not catching the water at the point of farthest extension. I think if you fix that, a lot of your body alignment problems will improve. The upward pressing component in your current stroke is extremely difficult to do when your body is in a nice flat position, so fix this and you'll find it easier to fix that. Not a pro at this, but that's what I'd work on |
| 2007-05-16 4:18 PM in reply to: #803446 |
| Expert 721 Chandler, AZ | Subject: RE: swim video critique Hmm, interesting. So you're saying I should have my entire arm entering the water at once, as to not have a downward drive that pushes me up? Isn't the entire arm entering at once supposed to create greater water resistance though? Most certainly more splash, which I thought was an indication of resistance. If my "spearing" the water just was not such a straight spear, but teh continuous movement that moves directly into catching the water, would that create the same effect? Salain - 2007-05-16 1:46 PM You should "catch" the water more. Basically your hand enters the water by spearing too much (that's partially my taste, but it's definitely not speeding you up). As you spear the water, your hand is in a nice aerodynamic V, but you keep that V and never bend your wrist in the first part of the stroke. Because of that, the first part of your stroke has a large upward pressing component, which is partly slowing you down and contributing to your slightly upright body position. Check out this video of grant hackett's stroke http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZdx_WVnG_M&NR=1first off look at how his whole arm enters the water almost at once. Then, very briefly, he bends his wrist down to catch the water, then his wrist straightens, his elbows stay very high and his hands stay inside of them. Compare that to your stroke coming into the wall, the most obvious difference is in the elbow height/arm angle, but you can also see how you're not catching the water at the point of farthest extension. I think if you fix that, a lot of your body alignment problems will improve. The upward pressing component in your current stroke is extremely difficult to do when your body is in a nice flat position, so fix this and you'll find it easier to fix that. Not a pro at this, but that's what I'd work on |
| 2007-05-16 4:21 PM in reply to: #802232 |
| Champion 10471 Dallas, TX | Subject: RE: swim video critique Hmm, interesting. So you're saying I should have my entire arm entering the water at once, as to not have a downward drive that pushes me up? Isn't the entire arm entering at once supposed to create greater water resistance though? Most certainly more splash, which I thought was an indication of resistance. If my "spearing" the water just was not such a straight spear, but teh continuous movement that moves directly into catching the water, would that create the same effect? Keep spearing the water. Do not turn your stroke into a windmill stroke- that is not correct. If that's what you are asking. From what I saw you seem to have the TI method down. I think you just need faster turn over with your arms and less gliding. Keep in mind that I haven't been trained in TI. I just saw the video and I know 2 people who do it. |
| 2007-05-16 4:21 PM in reply to: #802232 |
| Expert 721 Chandler, AZ | Subject: RE: swim video critique It seems there really is a lot those goes into that little wrist bend to catch the water up top. Anybody have good drills to practice this? Someone told me "imagine your grabbing on to a rock." But besides mental visuals, how do I get this right? |
| 2007-05-16 4:24 PM in reply to: #803550 |
| Expert 721 Chandler, AZ | Subject: RE: swim video critique KSH - 2007-05-16 2:21 PM Keep spearing the water. Do not turn your stroke into a windmill stroke- that is not correct. If that's what you are asking. From what I saw you seem to have the TI method down. I think you just need faster turn over with your arms and less gliding. Keep in mind that I haven't been trained in TI. I just saw the video and I know 2 people who do it. Did you see my 2nd vid where I'm swimming at Lev 4 (ie, race pace)? My balance is worse with a faster turnover. That's the problem... I think the consensus seems to be that I need to catch better to improve balance. I think Salain's suggestion was how to create a better catch. But i question the windmill style swimming too. But apparently that style works for that Grant guy in his video. Edited by robin314159 2007-05-16 4:25 PM |
| 2007-05-16 4:27 PM in reply to: #802232 |
| Regular 109 Denton TX. | Subject: RE: swim video critique I think that pausing your "drive arm" as you do, is not a bad thing at this point. It is actually helping your balance (which looks good on the first vid.) That is what the "catch up" drill has helped me improve on; balance, and extension during the glide. Once you have your balance down, your turnover will increase, and that pause will not be as long. Edited by schwartz1 2007-05-16 4:27 PM |
| 2007-05-16 8:51 PM in reply to: #802232 |
| Regular 100 | Subject: RE: swim video critique Spearing the water isn't a big problem, but I don't think you'll see top level swimmers doing it quite that far back. Sometimes it comes in awfully close to your head. I'm not saying that you should windmill when I say your arms should hit closer to flat, just that they should hit at a shallower angle and a bit farther out in front. Check this video of phelps out below http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1BRbiXqHXsand above http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4BYPrO8aG0water and you'll see that he spears the water with his forearm, but the rest of his arm still hits almost all at once. That leaves his arm fully extended moments after it is in the water, and the stretch/glide is all from his body turn. Take a look at your elbow extension as you come into the wall, a ton of it is below water which is making you work harder. Honestly that's pretty minor, but I think it's the start of the small-catch problem. Have you ever tried sculling drills? Grab a pull buoy (pool buoy?), put your head up like you're using a kickboard, bend your hands down, keep your arms straight, and propel yourself forward and up by moving your hands both out then both in. Your palms will face out while your hands are moving out, then in when they're moving in. You want to focus on the feel of catching the water with your palms. If you're doing it right, your biceps will be worked hard. We used to love doing those as kids, after doing them for 15 minutes our arms would be huge |
| 2007-05-16 10:21 PM in reply to: #802232 |
| Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: swim video critique Visualizations....basketballs under your armpits. Watch the halo swim trainer video I linked to carefully and visualize that plastic halo that you "swim around". or make a real one out of cardboard and affix it to the end of a bench. Jorge describes a drill called the sewing machine that I've never quite figure dout, but I think it focuses on "high elbow" as well. Finally, look here for scads of swimming drill links: http://www.goswim.tv/drilloftheweek_archives.php |
| 2007-05-17 7:45 AM in reply to: #802232 |
| Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: swim video critique I didn’t read the previous posts so I apologize if this was covered already. The good things: I personally think you have a good body balance as your a$$ is almost touching the surface of the water. You have good body rotation (although a shoot from above the water would have been nice). You could get higher in the water by pushing your chest into the water forcing your rear end to touch the water surface. Your flutter kick is good in the sense that you kick it compact and doesn’t break your streamline. The bad: you have absolutely NO catch/pull. You are able to swim by the little momentum you gain from the hand entering the water and the minimum glide but you grab no water to propel you body forward. As soon as your arm enters the water, you do your ‘glide’ and then your arm completely drops (you can see that on your video # 1 @ seconds :15-:19). The palm of that leading had faces the bottom of the pull almost all the time, you have NO high elbow at all and you don’t use your entire arm to grab any water. (Compare it with this video of Thorpe @ seconds :22-:25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub-_LlqR23g) Also you tend to kick a bit more when swimming faster cuz you have no other means to swim faster per the inefficiency of your catch/pull hence your hips drop and it seems as your balance is worst. Also your kick is not in synch with the rhythm of your stroke. I suggest you work 1st and foremost on your catch and pull. Your stroking arm enters the water just ahead of your head and for now it is fine although it would be better if you can enter the water a little head to gain even more momentum. The movement that you want to accomplish is: seat in front of your desk (or a table) with one arm extended in front of you. (Like it would be when swimming). Now drop your hand from the wrist (like it was broken) and point your fingers towards the desk/table. (That’s the beginning of the catch) Now drop your hand towards the desk so your fingers barely touch, palm facing towards you and it keeping your elbow as high as you can (end of catch). Now keeping the elbow high move your hand towards you, with the fingers touching the desk/table as if you ware trying to scrape something from the surface until your hand reaches the side of your body at hip height. (That’s the pull) Got it? That’s the movement you want to do when swimming! You always want to keep the palm of your hands facing towards the back of the pool as often as possible. The only time they will face the bottom of the pool and just momentary would be when the hand enters the water and trough the glide. Your elbows should always stay high in the water. A way to learn good arms elbows bend/positions is: stand up with arms on your side. Now raise your elbows to the height of your shoulders while your hands/fingers are pointing towards the floor on a 90 degree angle bend. That’s the arm position you should have after the catch and through the pull, IOW your triceps should be horizontal to the water surface, your elbow high pointing to the side of the pool and your hand/forearm pointing to the bottom (pal of hand pointing to the back) Drill: work on one arm drill >>> literally, watch your catch and pull while swimming with one arm. Swim free style but only catch/pull one arm, keeping the non-working arm stretched out in front of you. Perform Focus on your hand starting the catch, the elbow bend at the beginning of the pull and on body rotation. Drive each rotation from your hip and kick NOT YOUR HEAD OR SHOULDERS. The typical way to visualize this drill is to pretend that the stroking hand is passing over a barrel and then pulling it towards you. When arm is about to exit the water for recovery phase lead again with your elbow out of the water and moving forward (see viedeo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIzBaSiWdRA ) You can co 6-8x50 drill/swim as 25 yds doing one arm drill with left arm/25 yrs swimming normally to imprint the right catch/pull movement. The next set opposite hand. do this every swim session Focus on that for 2-4 weeks before moving into other aspects. If you develop a good catch/pull and I can guarantee your times will begin to fall within laps! |
| 2009-03-08 2:17 PM in reply to: #802232 |
| Extreme Veteran 600 Indiana | Subject: RE: swim video critique when I click on your links it says "private" along a big pink banner............... how did everyone else see it ? |
| 2009-03-08 2:45 PM in reply to: #2004884 |
Expert 1187 Ontario | Subject: RE: swim video critique maxmansmom - 2009-03-08 3:17 PM when I click on your links it says "private" along a big pink banner............... how did everyone else see it ? Maybe when she posted in May 2007 it was public?? |
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