plumbing/ outdoor shower question

Do you have to pump it up?  Why not just let water go into the ground?  You could dig a hole and fill it w/ sand and stone.  I know and understand what you're 'supposed' to do w/ an outdoor shower, but really, its mostly just water going down the drain and filling up your tank and septic system.
Just so you know, I put in an outdoor shower at my house (I use it every day) and I learned that if you want to build a deck w/ a shower, or a new house with an outdoor shower, you need the gray water return, but only if it's on the plans.  If you do it after inspections, then you can just put it in with no one the wiser.  Unless your plumber cares (mine didnt) 

If you do do it this way though - just be sure to use natural soaps and shampoos. 

her house is right on the lake, maybe 20 feet from the water.  I'd rather not let it seep into the ground because there are certain people in my family, including my wife, who will use the shower with the wrong soaps and shampoos "just this one time" which turns into many times.  

What do you mean by gray water return? The water is to required to be recycled? This house is in New Jersey (no jokes please

Grey water return = drain.     Is the house already on a septic system?   If so, then you might as well dig the pit and let the water just go into the soil.  That's where it's going to end up anyway. 

If it's connected to a sewer, then the most common solution is what your brother proposes, a sump with a trash/sewer pump.   If you're going to be having lots of showers with lots of debris (like to wash off mud) this will be your best option.

If you've got some room to work with, you could put in a french drain to catch the water over an extended length of the yard.  If you're taking lots of muddy showers, this probably isn't a good solution as it will eventually clog up with mud.

Maybe this is too obvious, but can you build it up hill from the house?

it's a septic tank, up the hill. The showers won't be muddy, more like sandy, from the beach.  No, it is not an option to build up the hill.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ding...Ding...Ding...We have a winner!!!

FWIW at my folks' place in Hawaii we are pretty much required to rinse in the outdoor shower precisely SO that we don't wash the sand into the septic system via the regular drains.

The sandy water just washes into some nearby plantings.  No big deal.

My only concern for putting this outside would be it (the water) freezing.  At my work we get this question often.  A lot of people do just have it drain into the ground. 

I work for a plumbing & heating wholesale company in PA/NJ.  If you need anything let me know - I can get you a BT discount

Hello

Outdoor shower-   water from hose &  rinse off.    You are not going to be doing your wash, wax, shave & shine.

Add a wood enclosure and a gravel base under a 2 X 6 floor.  Go for it.

You are way over thinking this.

Remember

KISS

Kevin

You turn off the water in October, or when you close up the house.  When the plumber spliced into the lines, he put in a valve that has a drain valve as well (stop and waste valve).  Shut off the water, remove the screw (with a bucket underneath if its in a basement) and open up the shower so the water will flow.  Done.  Problem solved. 

Here's a link to a pic of the valve I mean http://www.jmfcompany.com/images/79876.jpg (sorry still cant get the pic tool to work on this PC)  Pic is about half way down.


Edited by ratherbesnowboarding 2010-08-25 8:45 AM

hey thanks Carrie, will let you know for sure. Freezing won't be a problem, the system will be drained from October thru May.

Kevin, I have to respectfully disagree. There are usually 10 people at this house on a given weekend, and we all have to wash off sunscreen and lake gunk.  Water alone won't remove the sunscreen, and human nature being what it is, if biodegradable soap isn't available, they'll use whatever is available. If everyone at the lake decided to let their soap and shampoo run into the lake, it wouldn't be as nice and pretty as it currently is. 

Tech-geezer: good point about the rain. We'll definitely have to keep that in mind; either get a cap for the drain or make it waterproof from the rain.

You will have to have a shower base of some sort to collect water for the drain.  Just elevate the shower base a little above ground level.  I would only be concerned about runoff or standing water flowing in.   A little direct rainfall  hitting something the size of a shower base (e.g. 30"x30") would be insignificant.

You are a good citizen for protecting the environment.  Thanks.

TW 

1" of rain water over a 30"x30" base would yield 900 cubic inches of water, or almost 4 gallons of water going into your septic tank.  Not that insignificant, = flushing a toilet 3 times.  Which is a lot which is why most beach houses have 'country plumbing' rules (If its yellow, let it mellow... ) and doesnt count for runoff from the roof either. (assuming this would be against the house, and not be on a gabled side)

If you do drain into your septic - cover the drain. 

Maybe I am a pig, but if I was at a cabin for a weekend, a good rinsing after a dip in the lake would be good enough for a day or two with no soap or shampoo. If it were me, I would keep it simple. At the least, a rinsing would suffice until the indoor shower was available.

However, it sounds like that doesn't work in your situation so I think you have to bite the bullet and put in the more complicated system, separation, sump pump and all.

Comparing to a flush volume  is one comparison you might want to make.  I would make a different one.   What you are concerned about is saturating the drainfield so that the septic tank backs up.  I would look at the amount of water going into the drainfield from direct rainfall versus the rainfall landing on the shower.   A typical drainfield for a three bedroom home is about 30 ft by 60 ft which is about half a million times bigger than our hypothetical 30"x30" shower base. On that basis, the shower area is insignificant.  If the drainfield can handle the direct rainfall, then it can handle the shower drain.

[An aside about infiltration versus runoff.   Rainfall on the drainfield can either soak in or run off.  We are concerned about the water that soaks in or infiltrates.  The way it works is that rainfall that is in excess of the maximum infiltration rate puddles and then runs off.  The maximum infiltration rate at a point in time depends on the rainfall rate preceding, soil porosity, grade and vegetation and a host of other parameters.  The typical maximum infiltration rates range from .05 in/hr when the ground is already pretty wet to 0.20 in/hr if it just started raining.  In a worst case, lets say it is raining 1 in/hr (downpour) and it has been doing that all day.  Only 0.05 in/hr is going in the drainfield directly but 1 in/hr from shower is going into the drainfield  because we are pumping it in.  In this case the ratio of flow from shower versus direct is ( 0.05/1)x500,000= 25,000 more water from the rainfall than the shower.  The direct rainfall is a lot more even accounting for a lot of runoff. 

I suppose I did not mention that it was not advisable to put the shower drain under the eave where the roof would drain into it.  Good point.


Edited by tech_geezer 2010-08-25 2:27 PM

I'm not sure they have to worry about saturation.  I've reread the posts and I get the gist that they have just a septic tank that has to get pumped out and doesnt leach out into a field.   If that is the case, you want to limit the amount of water that gets into the tank or you'll have to pump it out more frequently.  If its going to a tank and then leaching, then youre right, it wont matter.

So is it a closed system?  My parents have a tank at their cabin on cape cod (not hooked up to a sewer system yet) and they are always concerned with filling up the tank w/ water, Which is why the indoor shower is never used and the outdoor is not connected to the tank. 

Slightly off topic: I heard this from someone else so please someone w/ more plumbing experience can correct me - but he said that a septic tank and leach field isnt set up to handle soaps and detergents from the sink and shower and actually does more harm to your tank because it kills off the bacteria that breaks down the solid waste.  (He is building a house w/ me and said he will have a gray water basin separate from septic system which is why he told me this)  Is this true?

Edited by ratherbesnowboarding 2010-08-25 2:42 PM

I would agree with you if it was only a dip in the lake.  But, I ride 2 hours/day, my wife runs every day and that's not even it- it's the sunscreen. I hate it on my skin, but need it. Between the bike, the boat and the beach, I'm in the sun 8-10 hours so I apply 2-3 times/day.  There's no way I can go to sleep w/o showering.

As far as the septic, there shouldn't be much increase of intake. We'll just be moving the current number of showers from the indoor shower to the outdoor shower.

One of the most important thing during the construction of a house is the proper disposal of sewage & grey water and what are the necessary steps should be taken for the maintenance of septic system.