My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ...
-
No new posts
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller | Reply |
2011-05-23 9:31 AM |
Veteran 265 Boston | Subject: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... I'm lucky enough to have the flexibilty to do my long workouts during the week so I can spend more time with the kids on the weekends. While this works out from a family perspective, it also means that almost all of my training is alone, hence I'm rarely, if ever, in a group ride. Sunday, I was finishing up a rest week with a nice one hour spin when a peloton of much better cyclists cruised by me. As they were passing, I asked the later riders if it was okay for me to tag behind for a bit and they gave me the thumbs-up. Lessons learned: 1. There is a HUGE drafting benefit in a group. I had virtually no wind resistance and I was a good two bike lengths behind the pack. I had been spinning at about 17mph and with very little additional effort was spinning at an average of 22mph wiht the group. 2. They kicked my a** on the uphills (they kept a fast clip up the larger hills) but on the flats and downhills I had to tap my brakes quite a few times (as it appeared the aero position was extremely advantageous on those... plus my 180lbs was probably 30 lbs heaver than they were so I had nice momentum). 3. Much more of a "push" with group riding and you don't get to slack off if you want to keep up. 4. I have Adonis DNA the way I dodged snot rockets like a game of frogger. Seriously... these guys were leaking brain matter or something... Anybody who says people aren't as agile on Triathlon bikes in aero weren't watching me on Sunday... Fun experience though! |
|
2011-05-23 10:30 AM in reply to: #3513463 |
Expert 1305 | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... mogulbumm - 2011-05-23 10:31 AM I'm lucky enough to have the flexibilty to do my long workouts during the week so I can spend more time with the kids on the weekends. While this works out from a family perspective, it also means that almost all of my training is alone, hence I'm rarely, if ever, in a group ride. Sunday, I was finishing up a rest week with a nice one hour spin when a peloton of much better cyclists cruised by me. As they were passing, I asked the later riders if it was okay for me to tag behind for a bit and they gave me the thumbs-up. Lessons learned: 1. There is a HUGE drafting benefit in a group. I had virtually no wind resistance and I was a good two bike lengths behind the pack. I had been spinning at about 17mph and with very little additional effort was spinning at an average of 22mph wiht the group. 2. They kicked my a** on the uphills (they kept a fast clip up the larger hills) but on the flats and downhills I had to tap my brakes quite a few times (as it appeared the aero position was extremely advantageous on those... plus my 180lbs was probably 30 lbs heaver than they were so I had nice momentum). 3. Much more of a "push" with group riding and you don't get to slack off if you want to keep up. 4. I have Adonis DNA the way I dodged snot rockets like a game of frogger. Seriously... these guys were leaking brain matter or something... Anybody who says people aren't as agile on Triathlon bikes in aero weren't watching me on Sunday... Fun experience though!
Sounds like you had a good time. However, actually I'm kind of shocked you had no wind with two bike lengths. At that space you should more wind than you expect. I would have guessed all the turbulent air coming from the other rides would have pushed you. Usually the rule of thumb is to be close as possible. However, I will only go in a pace line if I am 100% confident in the person's ability in front of me. There are to many things that can go wrong and compound quickly. Being a triathlon bike, if you're in the pursuit bars are fine. I wouldn't be in the bars unless I'm pulling. Just way to dangerous. Anyway glad you had fun!
Scott Edited by shellback1998 2011-05-23 10:34 AM |
2011-05-23 10:34 AM in reply to: #3513637 |
Veteran 265 Boston | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... Sounds like you had a good time. However, actually I'm kind of shocked you had no wind with two bike lengths. At that space you should more wind than you expect. I would have guessed all the turbulent air coming from the other rides would have pushed you. Usually the rule of thumb is to be close as possible. However, I will only going in a pace line if I am 100% confident in the person's ability in front of me. There are to many things that can go wrong and compound quickly. Being a triathlon bike, if you're in the pursuit bars are fine. I would not ever be in the bars unless I'm pulling. Just way to dangerous. Anyway glad you had fun!
Scott Thanks Scott! I was suprised as well, but since I was on the bars that is why I dropped back more. There were about 10 bikes all riding staggered side-by-side. I was suprised by the lack of wind that far back, but when they took a right and I continued straight, the different was readily apparent. I wouldn't dare riding somebody's wheel without knowing them first and being on a road bike. Crap. That means I need to buy a road bike |
2011-05-23 10:35 AM in reply to: #3513463 |
Champion 4835 Eat Cheese or Die | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... mogulbumm - 2011-05-23 9:31 AM these guys were leaking brain matter or something... Tip: If you are drafting another cyclist, you should never be in your aero bars. I could care less about your safety, but if you are behind me, I don't want you spearing me because you can't brake quickly. ETA: Two bike lengths is not enough to warrant being on the aero bars. Edited by graceful_dave 2011-05-23 10:36 AM |
2011-05-23 10:58 AM in reply to: #3513653 |
Veteran 265 Boston | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... graceful_dave - 2011-05-23 11:35 AM mogulbumm - 2011-05-23 9:31 AM these guys were leaking brain matter or something... ...or something. I bet they were pretty pissed that the guy they allowed to suck wheel had the nerve to get in his aero bars. The snot rockets were probably their passive aggressive way to get rid of you. Tip: If you are drafting another cyclist, you should never be in your aero bars. I could care less about your safety, but if you are behind me, I don't want you spearing me because you can't brake quickly. ETA: Two bike lengths is not enough to warrant being on the aero bars.Wow, are you angry. My guess is that you have been speared in the past? I wasn't sucking wheel which is why I drifted back and I understand the concept of not pack riding with a tri bike. I'm VERY confident in bike handling and used to race single track on the mtn bike, but I do understand that the aero bars are not as safe due to the brakes being out further. I practice continually being able to jump to brake quickly and, when in a situation with traffic etc, always jump to the upright position. Just found a couple of straight stretches with no cross roads, turns, etc... and jumped down on them. This wasn't meant to trigger a flame fest, so I apolgize if my posting pissed you off in any way, since you seem genuinely upset at this. I'll be more cautious about my postings going forward so that those who are better and more experienced than I don't get offended. Edited by mogulbumm 2011-05-23 10:59 AM |
2011-05-23 12:42 PM in reply to: #3513733 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... mogulbumm - 2011-05-23 12:58 PM Wow, are you angry. My guess is that you have been speared in the past? I wasn't sucking wheel which is why I drifted back and I understand the concept of not pack riding with a tri bike. I'm VERY confident in bike handling and used to race single track on the mtn bike, but I do understand that the aero bars are not as safe due to the brakes being out further. I practice continually being able to jump to brake quickly and, when in a situation with traffic etc, always jump to the upright position. Just found a couple of straight stretches with no cross roads, turns, etc... and jumped down on them. I didn't read graceful_dave's post as angry at all but rather as trying to point out to someone who is new to group riding, that perhaps the snot rockets were an attempt to indicate that, while you may have been welcome to sit on the back, you were not welcome to sit on the back in your aerobars. Personally, I could care less how confident a rider feels (whether in aero or not), until I know that I can trust them, they always get a wide berth and if they do things that are unsafe, I will let them know and if it continues, then I will not ride with them. Being in the aerobars while riding in a group is unsafe for more reasons that simply being removed from the brakes as handling is also compromised. Of all the people I ride with, and I often ride in groups, there is one person who I am comfortable with sitting on my wheel while in the aero position and that is because we trained for a TTT and spent several hours practicing riding aero one behind the other. This wasn't meant to trigger a flame fest, so I apolgize if my posting pissed you off in any way, since you seem genuinely upset at this. I'll be more cautious about my postings going forward so that those who are better and more experienced than I don't get offended. It would appear that you are the one who is upset and that graceful_dave was simply trying to offer some advice. That may not be and I may be completely misreading the two posts, but you should expect that people will try to offer advice when you post here, especially when someone has more knowledge/experience than you in a given area. And yes, you do need a road bike Shane |
|
2011-05-23 1:16 PM in reply to: #3513733 |
Champion 4835 Eat Cheese or Die | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... mogulbumm - 2011-05-23 10:58 AM graceful_dave - 2011-05-23 11:35 AM mogulbumm - 2011-05-23 9:31 AM these guys were leaking brain matter or something... ...or something. I bet they were pretty pissed that the guy they allowed to suck wheel had the nerve to get in his aero bars. The snot rockets were probably their passive aggressive way to get rid of you. Tip: If you are drafting another cyclist, you should never be in your aero bars. I could care less about your safety, but if you are behind me, I don't want you spearing me because you can't brake quickly. ETA: Two bike lengths is not enough to warrant being on the aero bars.Wow, are you angry. My guess is that you have been speared in the past? I wasn't sucking wheel which is why I drifted back and I understand the concept of not pack riding with a tri bike. I'm VERY confident in bike handling and used to race single track on the mtn bike, but I do understand that the aero bars are not as safe due to the brakes being out further. I practice continually being able to jump to brake quickly and, when in a situation with traffic etc, always jump to the upright position. Just found a couple of straight stretches with no cross roads, turns, etc... and jumped down on them. This wasn't meant to trigger a flame fest, so I apolgize if my posting pissed you off in any way, since you seem genuinely upset at this. I'll be more cautious about my postings going forward so that those who are better and more experienced than I don't get offended. I'm not angry. I could not care less what you do (eta: so long as you aren't riding behind me). You mentioned riding in aero bars behind a group of roadies and them blowing a lot of snot rockets. I'm simply connecting the dots for you. So, you raced on single track. Does the group you were behind know this? All they see is a guy on a tri bike who asked to get on, riding in the aero bars. They have no knowledge of how capable you are. I don't care how capable you are. I've raced XC, dual slalom and placed on the podium in every downhill race I've been in on mountain bikes. I make most xc geeks look like hacks on a bike. I still wouldn't ride in the aero bars behind a pack. It's not safe, and it's rude to the group who just gave you permission to get on. End the end, it's just bad form. Blowing snot rockets to encourage you to drop off isn't the most polite way to get rid of you, I wouldn't do it, I would have told you directly to stay off the aero bars or you are not welcome to ride with the group, but I know more than one person who has resorted to unpleasant bodily functions to get rid of an unwelcome wheel sucker. For clarification, I'm not angry at all, I'm just telling you how I see it. If you don't want opinions on riding in the aero bars behind a pack of roadies, don't post about riding in the aero bars behind a pack of roadies. Edited by graceful_dave 2011-05-23 1:17 PM |
2011-05-23 4:16 PM in reply to: #3514087 |
Veteran 265 Boston | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... I've raced XC, dual slalom and placed on the podium in every downhill race I've been in on mountain bikes. I make most xc geeks look like hacks on a bike. I once defeated Chuck Norris with his own roundouse kick, but that is neither here nor there. I just think many people on this forum forget the venue. I joined this forum because I am both a "beginner' and a "triathlete". I found a love for the sport and enjoy the banter, posting, advice, and cameraderie from this site. With some of the responses to posts, it appears that many have forgotten this. I deliberately did not go into specific areas of my OP since it wasn't relevant. I did not go into detail as to how I dropped back past 5 bike lengths when aero, or that it was mostly the guy in the middle flinging constant bilateral snot rockets, or that the funniest part was how the 4 riders behind him rode in a zigzag to dodge them and didn't break stride. It is a simple post. the responses which Shane and I disagree on with respect to what constitutes "advice" versus a "you don't know what you are doing" attitude. Maybe if you had the whole story, but then again, there is a quick snap to judgment. It would be nice to get back to a point where once can post without lecture. Heck, if I wanted that I'd post on ST. I think we've derailed this enough. |
2011-05-23 4:44 PM in reply to: #3513463 |
Pro 4339 Husker Nation | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... I remember my first group ride feeling how much of a benefit you get from drafting. It was incredible (heck it still is!) I stayed off the aero bars thanks to the folks at BT shaming me off them, and nobody said anything to me or blew mucous in my direction in a passive-aggressive attempt to shame me even further. I remember one particular ride where a group of four of us broke off on our own and I ended up spending the second half of the ride sucking on the wheel of this girl who only started riding like two months before - she kicked my butt! I tried to evangelize to her about doing a triathlon but it was getting toward the end of riding season so I never did find out if she went in that direction or not. In the end, I agree with each of your points, especially #2 which is only motivation to train on more hills |
2011-05-23 5:37 PM in reply to: #3514496 |
Champion 4835 Eat Cheese or Die | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... mogulbumm - 2011-05-23 4:16 PM I've raced XC, dual slalom and placed on the podium in every downhill race I've been in on mountain bikes. I make most xc geeks look like hacks on a bike. I once defeated Chuck Norris with his own roundouse kick, but that is neither here nor there. I just think many people on this forum forget the venue. I joined this forum because I am both a "beginner' and a "triathlete". I found a love for the sport and enjoy the banter, posting, advice, and cameraderie from this site. With some of the responses to posts, it appears that many have forgotten this. I deliberately did not go into specific areas of my OP since it wasn't relevant. I did not go into detail as to how I dropped back past 5 bike lengths when aero, or that it was mostly the guy in the middle flinging constant bilateral snot rockets, or that the funniest part was how the 4 riders behind him rode in a zigzag to dodge them and didn't break stride. It is a simple post. the responses which Shane and I disagree on with respect to what constitutes "advice" versus a "you don't know what you are doing" attitude. Maybe if you had the whole story, but then again, there is a quick snap to judgment. It would be nice to get back to a point where once can post without lecture. Heck, if I wanted that I'd post on ST. I think we've derailed this enough. Meh, if you are going to post something that makes it look like you were acting inappropriately, expect a response. Don't get all pissy because you don't post the details that show you weren't doing something wrong. |
2011-05-23 8:47 PM in reply to: #3514496 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... mogulbumm - 2011-05-23 6:16 PM I just think many people on this forum forget the venue. I joined this forum because I am both a "beginner' and a "triathlete". I found a love for the sport and enjoy the banter, posting, advice, and cameraderie from this site. With some of the responses to posts, it appears that many have forgotten this. I fail to see how trying to point out to someone, who is new to group riding, that riding in aero might have been the cause of snot rockets coming their way is not in keeping with the intent or spirt of this forum. I've been around for many years and with a few exceptions, most of the posts are constructive and offered in an attempt to help. It is a simple post. the responses which Shane and I disagree on with respect to what constitutes "advice" versus a "you don't know what you are doing" attitude. Maybe if you had the whole story, but then again, there is a quick snap to judgment. It would be nice to get back to a point where once can post without lecture. Heck, if I wanted that I'd post on ST. IMO one can easily post here (and ST for that matter) without a lecture. However, one can expect that someone who has more knowledge/experience will offer insight if they feel they have something to contribute. As is the nature of internet forums, sometimes the advice is what the OP intended or was looking for and in other cases, it may be something that seems to be completely out of the blue. The thing is that for the most part, what is posted is sincere and posters are just trying to help and are not trying to lecture or belittle anyone. Shane |
|
2011-05-23 10:17 PM in reply to: #3514918 |
Veteran 265 Boston | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... The thing is that for the most part, what is posted is sincere and posters are just trying to help and are not trying to lecture or belittle anyone.Shane Agreed 100%. One of the reasons why I read the forum. Not to be called "pissy" by those who need to tout their greatness and podium finishes in order to prove a point. Let's face it, there are those who can address an issue with class and those who cannot. It's a "podium" spot that some will never reach. |
2011-05-23 10:47 PM in reply to: #3513463 |
Master 2460 | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... Meh. I'm totally unimpressed by all the hype. Yes, stay off the aerobars in a group ride, but there's no need to be a Nazi about it. If you don't want the guy with aerobars near you, just politely let them know it, and they'll be fine. I've ridden with MANY (over 10) different roadie + triathlon groups in Nor and Socal, and I can't tell you how many aerobar-included pacelinelike rides I've done, where folks even in the midst of the pack were often on aerobars. Granted, these were not beginner riders, but they weren't exactly experts either. And the reports of aerobars causing injury /accidents are GREATLY exaggerated - all the roadies holler about it, but pretty much anybody using them knows instinctively when it's tight and fast that it's dicey to be that far off the brakes. I've never had or even seen of a problem with them in the many group rides I've been with, and those that need a reminder learn pretty quickly. I find true beginner group rides where there are a good number of truly rookie, inexperienced riders, the trickiest rides. FAR, far more hazardous than aerobars in a group ride, even a fast one.
So yes, stay off the bars in the group, but more importantly, be aware and ready to react.
Also, with regards to HILLS and group riding, especially with roadies in a paceline, you should definitely expect the pace to dramatically quicken on the climbs. Even with Cat1-pro hammerfest group training rides (which I have no business with, but I still try to keep up), they'll coast easy on the flats, talking the whole way, but then destroy you on the climbs, as it's the climbs where the draft effect is lost, and you can really prove your strength. Not too many group rides are done 'crit' style where you're trying to drop folks on turns and straightaways, often for safety reasons.
I think every group ride I've done with competitive roadies (and most noncompetitive ones) involve riding at aero pace on the flats, then near-redlining it on the inclines. As a triathlete, you'll get really thrown by these - it has less to do with your inability to climb hills than the reality that they're going MUCH harder on the hills than before. Do NOT use the group speed on flats to gauge the strength of the group - only the hills count. Edited by agarose2000 2011-05-23 10:48 PM |
2011-05-23 11:39 PM in reply to: #3515076 |
Champion 4835 Eat Cheese or Die | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... mogulbumm - 2011-05-23 10:17 PM The thing is that for the most part, what is posted is sincere and posters are just trying to help and are not trying to lecture or belittle anyone.Shane Agreed 100%. One of the reasons why I read the forum. Not to be called "pissy" by those who need to tout their greatness and podium finishes in order to prove a point. Let's face it, there are those who can address an issue with class and those who cannot. It's a "podium" spot that some will never reach.You pointed out that you raced on single track as evidence of your masterful handling skills. It seems like you are allowed to qualify yourself but I can't? You read into my first post incorrectly, told me I was very angry then get mad I called you pissy? Seems like you can't take the same criticism you are willing to dish out. Being called classless is not the worst thing I've been called. If being direct speaks to a lack of class then so be it. I like to be direct instead of using cute little jabs. An example of that directness: The little play on words (in bold) is lame. Moving on now. |
2011-05-24 5:39 AM in reply to: #3513463 |
Expert 758 Port Colborne, Ontario | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... |
2011-05-24 7:42 AM in reply to: #3513463 |
Master 3205 ann arbor, michigan | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... I went on my first organized group ride this spring. It was so much fun that I can't wait to do it again. I was on my road bike and like you, I was amazed at how fast and how easy it is to ride with in a pack. One of the stronger riders is extremely fast and did most of the pulling and we had several stretches where the entire group did 3-4 miles at 27+ mph. It was cool. If I fell even a little bit off of the back of the group it suddenly got much harder to keep up and man did I have to work to get back to the pack. I did screw up once in the ride but fortunately this is a very understanding group and they all knew that it was my first group ride so they really helped me out with rules and etiquette. Very enjoyable. I would advise you try a group ride if you haven't. That is all. Jason |
|
2011-05-24 8:42 AM in reply to: #3513463 |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... Never mind the drafting in the aerobars faux pas - just PLEASE tell me you were not also wearing a sleeveless jersey.... Edited by TankBoy 2011-05-24 8:43 AM |
2011-05-24 8:52 AM in reply to: #3515076 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2011-05-24 9:10 AM in reply to: #3515566 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... TankBoy - 2011-05-24 9:42 AM Never mind the drafting in the aerobars faux pas - just PLEASE tell me you were not also wearing a sleeveless jersey.... . . . and that you were wearing socks.
|
2011-05-24 9:29 AM in reply to: #3513463 |
Master 2094 | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... Congrats on a great ride. Drafting makes a huge difference. FWIW using my power meter I have noticed when I'm out front I push about 350w which is a level I can't hold very long. When I drop back into the draft I push anywhere from 230-280 w which is a lot more sustainable. I would echo the comments about aerobars. I would not go into the aerobars if you are in eyesight of a group of roadies unless you are going the other direction. |
2011-05-24 9:44 AM in reply to: #3513463 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... i enjoy a group ride once in a while but for traithlon and racing never found them that useful i always feel: power meter + solo riding > group rides my 2 cents. maybe i need to find faster groups with less riders...10 or less. |
|
2011-05-24 9:53 AM in reply to: #3515654 |
Veteran 265 Boston | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... Goosedog - 2011-05-24 10:10 AM TankBoy - 2011-05-24 9:42 AM Never mind the drafting in the aerobars faux pas - just PLEASE tell me you were not also wearing a sleeveless jersey.... . . . and that you were wearing socks.
Ok, so aside from the NO AEROBARS (I get it... really ... I get it...), no sleeveless jersey, need for socks... did I violate any rules wearing my Hello Kitty hotpants? |
2011-05-24 10:02 AM in reply to: #3515784 |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... mogulbumm - 2011-05-24 10:53 AM Goosedog - 2011-05-24 10:10 AM TankBoy - 2011-05-24 9:42 AM Never mind the drafting in the aerobars faux pas - just PLEASE tell me you were not also wearing a sleeveless jersey.... . . . and that you were wearing socks.
Ok, so aside from the NO AEROBARS (I get it... really ... I get it...), no sleeveless jersey, need for socks... did I violate any rules wearing my Hello Kitty hotpants? Depends - what color where they? Most likely it was a rule #14 violation with some definite #5 thrown in for good measure. |
2011-05-24 10:06 AM in reply to: #3515806 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: My first unplanned group ride and lessons learned ... TankBoy - 2011-05-24 11:02 AM Depends - what color where they? Most likely it was a rule #14 violation with some definite #5 thrown in for good measure. #14 is your concern. It sounds like your only possible problem with #5 is that you weren't off the front.
|