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2006-02-01 10:09 PM

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Master
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The real USC, in the ghetto of LA
Subject: China? respect?
im not *quite* sure why people refuse to recognize the china as a super power. they have put a man in space, dominate economy (passing japan), WMDs, they have a bigger army [and its not just numbers, they have good technology too] what else do they need to do to be known as a super power? win a war? to me i call then the 'other" super power (like we did with the soviate union). i just dont understand why we cant say it...

i guess the best question is....

if we went to war with china, would be win?

and if you took 1 second (or more) to think about it, why cant we call them a super power?

(hate to say it, but even with "home feild" advantage im not sure if we could. [take that gun control freaks, arm us to fight the china..])

Edited by tyrant 2006-02-01 10:11 PM


2006-02-01 10:23 PM
in reply to: #336901

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Pro
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Subject: RE: China? respect?

I would say possibly one of the superpowers in the world if that's what you want to call them but no way in comparison to the US in military might.  After the fall of the soviet union, there isn't that much out there which can compare.   

An economic superpower which may outgrow the US, now that's very likely. 

2006-02-01 10:26 PM
in reply to: #336901

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2006-02-01 10:34 PM
in reply to: #336919

Pro
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Subject: RE: China? respect?

That would be the biggest mistake for both countries, I think more so for the US since China has many other partners and will have no problems sending $$$ to them that would have went to the US.   China is growing so fast and is willing to open up towards capitalism that even with problems that the US has with China's stance on Taiwan or human rights, we are willing to invest a lot of money there.   I think it would hurt us economically but not crippling or anything like that.  It would just be stupid.  They are like a untouched mine full of buying power. 

betsybromley - 2006-02-01 8:26 PM What do you think would happen to this nation if China ever decided not to do busisness with th USA?



Edited by auto208562 2006-02-01 10:35 PM
2006-02-01 10:50 PM
in reply to: #336901

Master
1867
10005001001001002525
The real USC, in the ghetto of LA
Subject: RE: China? respect?
economics will keep us from war. [its more of an issue of the power of disney than china in **that** situation] but seriously are we **that**good that we can beat china in a war? see iraq, and nukes in their power. in my opinion what will curtail N. Korea, is that N. Korea is the basterd cousin of china. the heat that they are bringing will worry china (think korean war) and they will get involved BC they dont want to feel threated.

could we beat china in a war? they are modern, they have an active army larger than our whole military including reserves and NG.
2006-02-01 10:56 PM
in reply to: #336901

Pro
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Subject: RE: China? respect?

I don't think China has a chance militarily.  Though they have nukes (maybe several but not hundreds or thousands like the US), it's suspect if they even have a delivery system to get it to the US.  They may be the military bully in Asia but not in the world.  The only reason we are worried about N. Korea and Iraq and Iran is not that they will screw us but attack the countries near them. 

Plus, a lot of China's military is built on previous Soviet technologies.  Once they collasped, they ran out of one of their main military suppliers.  Europeans may be supplying stuff but unlikely to give them the best of the best because of their relationship with the US.  There's really no other supplier I can think of that can help them. 

I'm just guessing but I'd say, overall, they are at least 10 years behind us militarily.   



2006-02-01 11:02 PM
in reply to: #336928

Master
1867
10005001001001002525
The real USC, in the ghetto of LA
Subject: RE: China? respect?
auto208562 - 2006-02-01 10:56 PM

I don't think China has a chance militarily.  Though they have nukes (maybe several but not hundreds or thousands like the US), it's suspect if they even have a delivery system to get it to the US. 



keep in mind the **reason** why they went to space is they didnt get any respect for their rocket and space program. they launch most of the stallites we use, they are the main statellite launching country. (where did you think we launch them, off the space shuttle? HA HA HA yea.... NO)

i love to learn:

here is considerable uncertainly in published estimates of the size of the Chinese nunclear weapons stockpile. In the late 1980s it was generally held that China was the world's third-largest nuclear power, possessing a small but credible nuclear deterrent force of 225 to 300 nuclear weapons. Other estimates of the country's production capacities suggested that by the end of 1970 China had fabricated around 200 nuclear weapons, a number which could have increased to 875 by 1980. With an average annual production of 75 nuclear weapons during the 1980s, some estimates suggest that by the mid-1990s the Chinese nuclear industry had produced around 2,000 nuclear weapons for ballistic missiles, bombers, artillery projectiles and landmines.

per:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/nuke.htm

Edited by tyrant 2006-02-01 11:15 PM
2006-02-01 11:04 PM
in reply to: #336901

Extreme Veteran
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Allen, TX
Subject: RE: China? respect?
"i'm so ronery, so ronery..."

might have something to do with it.
2006-02-01 11:06 PM
in reply to: #336932

Pro
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Subject: RE: China? respect?

I've never heard anyone in the news, no military expert from any country, say that China is an equal or better militarily than the US.   Not even from China and I do read the Chinese newspaper and watch Chinese TV.

tyrant - 2006-02-01 9:02 PM
auto208562 - 2006-02-01 10:56 PM

I don't think China has a chance militarily.  Though they have nukes (maybe several but not hundreds or thousands like the US), it's suspect if they even have a delivery system to get it to the US. 

keep in mind the **reason** why they went to space is they didnt get any respect for their rocket and space program. they launch most of the stallites we use, they are the main statellite launching country. (where did you think we launch them, off the space shuttle? HA HA HA yea.... NO)


Edited by auto208562 2006-02-01 11:08 PM
2006-02-01 11:17 PM
in reply to: #336901

Master
1867
10005001001001002525
The real USC, in the ghetto of LA
Subject: RE: China? respect?
auto... BC no one said it, does it mean it isnt? i think thats my conversation is no one recognizes or says it. they cop out. i say it, you heard it from at least one person.

Edited by tyrant 2006-02-01 11:19 PM
2006-02-01 11:23 PM
in reply to: #336901

Elite
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Subject: RE: China? respect?

It might take a bit longer since they've got us outnumbered 2 - 1 in terms of size, but with all due respect to the "other" super-pwer, we'd wipe the floor with them, at home or abroad.  On average they lag 20-30 years behind us in terms of conventional firepower (in particular the Air Force).  And a huge slice of their 2+ million soldiers are basically in-garrison regional defense (read: full time local militia).

As for the economic side... they are probably shunned as a super-power because their per-capita income sucks.  Certainly one of the worst in the region, let alone the world... but you are correct, they are getting better and there is nothing to be gained by fighting or boycotting them.

bts 



2006-02-01 11:27 PM
in reply to: #336947

Master
1867
10005001001001002525
The real USC, in the ghetto of LA
Subject: RE: China? respect?
Brett - 2006-02-01 11:23 PM

It might take a bit longer since they've got us outnumbered 2 - 1 in terms of size, but with all due respect to the "other" super-pwer, we'd wipe the floor with them, at home or abroad.  On average they lag 20-30 years behind us in terms of conventional firepower (in particular the Air Force).  And a huge slice of their 2+ million soldiers are basically in-garrison regional defense (read: full time local militia).

As for the economic side... they are probably shunned as a super-power because their per-capita income sucks.  Certainly one of the worst in the region, let alone the world... but you are correct, they are getting better and there is nothing to be gained by fighting or boycotting them.

bts 



can we read "next" super power?
2006-02-01 11:41 PM
in reply to: #336901

Master
1315
1000100100100
Shreveport, LA
Subject: RE: China? respect?
You forgot one thing:

We have Jack Bauer.

1.6 billion Chinese are angry with Jack Bauer. Sounds like a fair fight.
2006-02-01 11:42 PM
in reply to: #336944

Pro
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Subject: RE: China? respect?

Just to say it is one thing, but it has to be backed up with some data.  I'm saying i've never heard any military stategist or someone with data prove otherwise.  All i've heard is the opposite. 

Granted my mo land has made many strides which I will give them credit for (which many other countries have not accomplished), like their ambitious three gorges dam or their ambitious one of a kind buildings they are trying to make for the 2008 oly, but military is just not one of them. 

I'll agree with you they outnumber our military, but so does N. korea.  But honestly, in a war, we aren't going to try to occupy them.  We are going to bomb the crap out of them.  Any war would be in China, not the US.  Take nukes out, we would do the same thing we did in Iraq.  Precision bombing.  And even with nukes, like I said, what delivery system do they have?  I think none. 

tyrant - 2006-02-01 9:17 PM auto... BC no one said it, does it mean it isnt? i think thats my conversation is no one recognizes or says it. they cop out. i say it, you heard it from at least one person.

2006-02-02 12:00 AM
in reply to: #336960

Elite
3650
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Laurium, MI
Subject: RE: China? respect?
China may be the world's 3rd largest nuclear power. You know what number two is? A single US balistic missile submarine.

I think China is definatly a power to respect, but I don't see them causing problems with us. Rather I see China and India or Pakastan (or all three) recreating what the US and Soviet Union went through. Unfortunatly I see all three of those countries being a lot more trigger happy then we were too. If the US has a current threat, it's N Korea.

Like was said, most of the Nukes they all have are ancient Soviet tech. I don't believe they have a platform that can reach the US. However, if China can launch a man into orbit, then they can launch a large warhead anywhere in the world. I seem to remember reading somewhere that a while ago that N Korea tested a platform that could reach the coast of Califorina. Don't remember the details though.
2006-02-02 12:06 AM
in reply to: #336966

Master
1867
10005001001001002525
The real USC, in the ghetto of LA
Subject: RE: China? respect?
vortmax - 2006-02-02 12:00 AM
I don't see them causing problems with us.


i guess thats my hangup. we dont see a war as logical so we dismiss the power they have.


2006-02-02 12:10 AM
in reply to: #336968

Elite
3650
200010005001002525
Laurium, MI
Subject: RE: China? respect?
don't get me wrong, they could be a formidable opponent, but in the grand scheme of things, there are many more countries that are higher on their **** list.

power is all in perception. That's part of the reason the US is still a super power. We could have a military so strong that we could occupy every country in the world in 24 hours, but if nobody considered us a threat or thought that it was possible, we would not be powerfull.

It's all about the street rep
2006-02-02 12:45 AM
in reply to: #336970

Master
1867
10005001001001002525
The real USC, in the ghetto of LA
Subject: RE: China? respect?
vortmax - 2006-02-02 12:10 AM

don't get me wrong, they could be a formidable opponent, but in the grand scheme of things, there are many more countries that are higher on their **** list.

power is all in perception. That's part of the reason the US is still a super power. We could have a military so strong that we could occupy every country in the world in 24 hours, but if nobody considered us a threat or thought that it was possible, we would not be powerfull.

It's all about the street rep


as in all respect with iraq, can we do any war? we can barely win over the 3rd miliray power. and all dem Dems' would say we are not winning (see the news). we cant beat terrorists, but "we can beat china"?

edit: read vietnam in retrospect to USSR. cant win the war, but how can we expect to be seen as THAT powerful?

Edited by tyrant 2006-02-02 12:46 AM
2006-02-02 12:53 AM
in reply to: #336901

Extreme Veteran
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Provo, UT (my heart is in Seattle)
Subject: RE: China? respect?
tyrant - 2006-02-01 8:09 PM

im not *quite* sure why people refuse to recognize the china as a super power. they have put a man in space, dominate economy (passing japan), WMDs, they have a bigger army [and its not just numbers, they have good technology too] what else do they need to do to be known as a super power? win a war? to me i call then the 'other" super power (like we did with the soviate union). i just dont understand why we cant say it...

i guess the best question is....

if we went to war with china, would be win?

and if you took 1 second (or more) to think about it, why cant we call them a super power?

(hate to say it, but even with "home feild" advantage im not sure if we could. [take that gun control freaks, arm us to fight the china..])


China has one of the worst infrastructures of potential super powers. The United States is technically considered a weak hegemon today, and that's not just in the eyes of Americans. I just moved back to the States from Spain. The prevailing attitude in Europe is that America is a hegemon. They hate to admit it, but the will. Also, I recently read an article from dongyang.net that predicted that within the next decade, all of China's major cities will be grossly overpopulated from villagers that are moving into the cities (although that is illegal in China, tyranny anyone?) and that their beautiful economy, which really isn't all that beautiful, will begin to recede. Umm... I can go on about this for hours, but I'll just leave it at that. There is more to being a superpower than your current supposed strength. Part of the Soviet Union's strength was its potential for growth for many years into the future. It crumbled, but initially during the Cold War, the Soviet Union showed great growth with even better future potential. Anyway, that's a lesson for another day. Hope that helps you understand why China isn't technically considered a Super Power. An interesting note to finish with, China does have great potential, and the western world might consider them a super power if they knew more about China and if China figures out how to solve the major problems with its infrastructure
2006-02-02 1:03 AM
in reply to: #336901

Master
1867
10005001001001002525
The real USC, in the ghetto of LA
Subject: RE: China? respect?
infestructure? are we **the** super power (or USSR) immune to infestuctre 'change'. we the "lone super power' had huge homeless and infestructure issues during regan, clinton, and bush sr. just BC your economy and poor change does that mean u r instable?

when was america seen as a super power? after ww1? ww2? after a war??
2006-02-02 1:09 AM
in reply to: #336990

Extreme Veteran
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Provo, UT (my heart is in Seattle)
Subject: RE: China? respect?
Our infrastructure is and has been, traditionally mind you, in much better shape than China's. China does not allow for the villagers to move to the city, where all of the jobs are. However, millions of Chinese move there every year illegally because that is the only place that they can find work. Have you ever seen the movie Not One Less? It is a very moving documentary about a typical Chinese village and the struggles that the villagers face. I honestly would recommend it to you. It gives you a good feel for what the Chinese infrastructure. Their infrastructure is much worse than ours has ever been excluding, possibly, the great depression.


2006-02-02 1:18 AM
in reply to: #336995

Master
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The real USC, in the ghetto of LA
Subject: RE: China? respect?
Drewwhite - 2006-02-02 1:09 AM

Our infrastructure is and has been, traditionally mind you, in much better shape than China's. China does not allow for the villagers to move to the city, where all of the jobs are. However, millions of Chinese move there every year illegally because that is the only place that they can find work. Have you ever seen the movie Not One Less? It is a very moving documentary about a typical Chinese village and the struggles that the villagers face. I honestly would recommend it to you. It gives you a good feel for what the Chinese infrastructure. Their infrastructure is much worse than ours has ever been excluding, possibly, the great depression.


in the two times i have been to china, my experiance have been... everyone know english (why? international trade), how many of our HS grads can speak a language in any decent form? and we domiante? i will tell you i am a republican, blue blood all the way. i served in the army. but i have done ***some*** reserch. and my issue is all of our "justifications" for why china is inferior. (which is a leader to war. imagine spit in the face of bush... war will show you). china has made so many leaps and bounds (granted culteral revolution wasnt the best move) but they have come from no where to the democrat fear of why bush is bad. then when i ask for respect no one will recognize there power (the manufacture hiw much for us?).
2006-02-02 1:22 AM
in reply to: #336999

Extreme Veteran
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Provo, UT (my heart is in Seattle)
Subject: RE: China? respect?
I agree with you completely that they are currently powerful, but that is not the only factor in determining the status of a country. That's neat the you have been to China twice. Tours of duty, or just pleasure? I am most interested in seeing what is going to happen now that China and India have allied together; however, China needs to address domestic infrastructure issues first before they proliferate regionally, let alone internationally.
2006-02-02 1:23 AM
in reply to: #336901

Master
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The real USC, in the ghetto of LA
Subject: RE: China? respect?
i will resign from this converstion if everone thinks im crazy but.....


im 10 years remember what ive said....'


i love been a long time subscriber to WIRED BC what i read as "crazy" as it sounds in 6 months or a year everything i have read has come to REALITY. all sudden the buzz is what WIRED discussed a year ago and my response is "thats old news"

10 years... we will see about china. to be clear i love USA, but "CHINA IS A SUPER POWER". im sure bush will tap my phone calls, but hey i got nothing to hide!
2006-02-02 1:39 AM
in reply to: #337000

Master
1867
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The real USC, in the ghetto of LA
Subject: RE: China? respect?
Drewwhite - 2006-02-02 1:22 AM

I agree with you completely that they are currently powerful, but that is not the only factor in determining the status of a country. That's neat the you have been to China twice. Tours of duty, or just pleasure? I am most interested in seeing what is going to happen now that China and India have allied together; however, China needs to address domestic infrastructure issues first before they proliferate regionally, let alone internationally.


pleasure/tourism. NEVER MILITARY. i would have hated that day, to be there militarily. i would rather serve in afganistan and iraq than one tour in a war with china. i guess my real issue with china is the respect. imagine of we still didnt get the respect of a super power? and no one answered my question on when "we" became a super power, and i know it was after WW2."

to me the only reason that china went to space (which hasnt been done by a country in how long? except the two super powers, USA and USSR), BC they didnt feel respect for their space program (read in they launch our satillites) they launch more than any country (including US).

so what non super power has been to space? china? non super power? non deliverable nukes? serioisly i think china is the kid that gopt picked on in HS and finaly shot up the school at columbine. then everone wonders why.


i will say in 10 years, remember i said this was comming. i remember when i was in the military in 1999 and i worked in counter terrorism. i had people tell me "the enemy doesnt walk our street, i dont see a russian talk drive in my town" of which my response was "the war has changed. terrorists walk our streets, and they will bring fire on us" ask anyone who knew me when i got out. i NEVER when to major gatherings, and i swore (like a crazy man) that a terrorist attck was coming.

i will take that role again. CHINA IS A SUPER POWER! email me in 10 years!

people thought i was crazy when irefused sports tickets, and travel trough main ports. on 9/11 all my doubters rang my phone off the hook with one question "who is behind it, and what is in store for us?") i hate the fact that americans look so simply at the world.

Edited by tyrant 2006-02-02 1:45 AM
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