Add Weight, Add Success?

I've read studies that show weight training improves performance and studies that show no difference. Based on my personal experience, I think it helps. Will it help you? I really have no idea. The only way to try is to do your own experiment and lift for a few weeks or months and see if you notice any improvements. If that's something you want to try I can help you with a routine. The downside is that after a weeks you get NO improvements in endurance but you gain some strength and muscle. Not really a downside.

Even if it does not "help" your Tri..

Looken good never hurts

To make a clear example what triathlon is, you need see the people who race Kona and those who run for marathon. You can see the different in their muscle size; triathlete tend to have more muscle mass than a marathon runner. The sport of triathlon consisting 3 "smaller" sport which bind into a single event.

When you add muscle mass, you will automatically increase your strength. That makes your swim, bike, and run faster since you have a stringer muscle. If you worry that muscle gain will hinder your flexibility during race, check this video out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBbc0PbxjH8

That guy is Kai Greene, and he weight 230 lb on 5 ft 9 frame

no, endurance sports are about power and not strenght. There are no studies proving strenght training increaes performance for swim or bike and there are a few showing plyometrics helping improve running economy on already trained individuals IOW unless you have a great running fitness and years of running experience you'll be better served by just running. In addition, as a triathlete you can get strenght training via training doing sport specific sessions (i.e. hill runnning/cucling repeats, drills, swim all 4 strokes,  swim w/pladdles, swim w/ ankle lock, etc.)

There are good reasons to do strenght training; to do so to improve performance is not one of them...

that's irrelevant for endurance sports; read my post above. If maximal strenght was indeed relevant for triathlons body builders would kick . Tomorrow look at the the cyclists in the TdF, most probably can't squat much weight but for sure most power to weight ratio are very high...

Power sport = fast twitch muscle fiber, endurance sport = slow twitch muscle fiber. By the type of the muscle it self, these sports are different. The first one will last much faster than the latter, also the training regime these sports have is not the same.

The cyclist you said are indeed carry much less muscle mass, and not able to lift as heavy as bb or pl. But, they would last longer in a race than those people. I do think that triathlete positioned a unique spot where they carry significant amount of muscle mass, but they also have good conditioning.

But, from what I have experienced, these triathletes are training still with a relatively light weight to the power athletes. There are reasons why a lot of bodybuilders do not do ironman and marathon runners don't go on stage.

I am curious as to which athletes racing Kona you are referring to:

Craig Alexander - 150lbs
Chris McCormack - 150lbs
Normann Stadler - 145lbs
Faris al-Sultan - 155lbs
Peter Reid - 140lbs
Tim Deboom - 155lbs

Shane

I have definitely experienced the bolded above.

As someone who has never particularly liked squats, my legs have up to recently been "lacking" in comparison to my upper body strength. This has made a 180 since training for triathlons. My legs are not ripped, but I have seen visible size increases in my quadriceps. I have ran and biked up 11% hills, and sprinted with my dad however. And from this, my ability to climb hills have increased.

I also had a base of plyometrics coming into this sport, and I can tell that it enabled me to sprint/climb with a group of much more experienced riders, but I could only do a couple of sprints/hills per session, because I had no aerobic base.

Still you seem to be confusing strenght with power. They are not the same; one is the ability to do work (burts of energy) in shorts periods of time (usually < 2 min) while power is the ability to do work over time (3 > min)

The only reason triathletes tend to look a bit more built than cyclists or runners is because we also swim and that help us with upper body strenght. At the end of the end for endurance sports (or triathlons) it is not about strenght, it is about power...

Why are you posting a video of a pro bodybuilder who's on buttloads of steroids on a triathlon message board? 

You did mention tDF cyclists.. ones who can sprint close to 70 km/hr to end a stage, looks like cavendish and the others right behind him had a nice combination of short burst and aerobic power. 

I mentioned before that strength sports utilize fast twitch muscle fiber in a short period of time (anaerobic, explosive movements), while endurance sports utilize slow twitch muscle fiber for a longer period of time (aerobic, long and steady movement). These two are like 100m sprinters and marathon runners, where the first group carry more muscle mass and strength but have a shorter period of combustion. While the second group has less muscle mass and strength but have a better durability for going to longer distance.

I think that triathlon athletes falls in the middle, where it has more muscle mass than marathon runners, but have better cardiovascular for endurance than strength and explosive athlete.



In my experience, many people are afraid to pack on muscle due to loss of flexibility and speed in their sports. But, study reveals almost to none for that to happens. I think that triathletes do need to be "bulkier" than cyclist, runner, or swimmer because they do all those 3 discipline in 1 event. I am not saying that you need to be as big as an IFBB pro bodybuilder, but just get that muscle mass where you can swim, bike, and run faster.

That video shows that although a 240 lb pro bodybuilder, still can do some movement that most people think would be impossible when you get that big (I'm a lifetime natural if you asked).

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Yeah, the last 30 sec sprint is anaerobic however You don't need to ST to develop that (although for this specific riders; sprinters it might complement it). Climbers also can burst a lot of power on short periods of time to establish a break way, still to repeat myself for the 3rd time, for edurance sports they key to their success is maximal muscular power and not muscular strenght.

Do you know what % of your max strenght  does it take you to sprint all out when cycling (or running) at your maximal power for a few min (i.e. sprinting towards the finish line)? That is, do you know what % of your maximal 1 lift muscular strenght (i.e. squats) we use even when sprinting all out? Notice I am not referring when we start from standing still and going all out (like the start for a 100 mts race) but while we are already moving like at the end of a race. (hint - it is not that much)

Going back to the OP -  add weight, add success; for long distance racing specifically triathlons it is not the case as much as you believe that. At the end of the day you can ST all you want and you can race and if you are in contention to win, maybe, just maybe you can outsprint your competition. Although instead of doing ST that might help you marginally, you can achieve greater benefits by specifically training and just do for instance a tempo run and over the last 1/2 mile close at your VO2 max pace and the last 100 mts go all out. Why? because when we as endurance athletes rely on short burst of energy for a final sprint at the finish line the % needs of maximal muscular strenght are not significant. Power on the other hand is because maximal power is generated when large muscles contract simultaneously, forcefully and quickly. Hence if you want to become a better endurance athlete you should focus in increasing your power not your strenght.

I still can understand why you think that increasing one musculature one will perform better (add weight; add success) muscular strenght has little to do with muscular power hence if your argument is only based on what you believe then we better leave it at that because we'll go in circles and you are not provding any evidence (beyong anecdotal) as to why one needs to be "bulkier" to perform better in triathlons...

Guys, who say weight training is good often come from some sort of weight training related sport (football,etc).  Most sports encourage weight training.  Those who say dont weight train probally never saw the inside of a gym in their lives.  The thought of a bench press or squat sent them running.

I say weight train for many reason.  Plus it will get you more action from girls...What more do you really need?  I personally dont want a boys body as a grown man!!!

I dunno..."need to be bulkier"....what does being bulkier have to do with anything? What they need to be is fast in swimming, biking and running.  And for the majority of people, how's that gonna best happen, by swimming, biking & running.  I was involved with a women's boot camp 4-5x week that is a fair amount of strength training, and I also do tris.  But I can almost guarantee I'd be a faster triathlete if I'd permanently replace the 200-250 minutes/week of boot camp with swim, bike & run training.  Climbing a 10% grade hill that is a few miles long gives me not only the leg burn that I get from squats with 2 25 lb. kettle bells, but I'm huffin & puffin getting a heck of a cardio workout too.  What's my preference?  Squats.  Hands down.   But the race is not squats with kettle bells, it's climbing the hills on the bike.   So again, not that boot camp is bad, but the bulk is not what's going to make you faster in triathlons.  It's doing the 3 sports.  There are wayyyy to many super thin triathletes who win their AGs, pros, etc.  JorgeM is wicked FAST, and he is a skinny dude with chicken legs.  Chrissie Wellington, smokin fast, super thin.  Start looking at the podiums in races...

I'm not saying to give up weight training.  Do what you love.  I certainly plan to.  But I think to make the claim that triathletes need to be bulkier is completely bogus.

Human body works like a car, to makes it run fast you need a better engine. Sure you still can do a long trip with your regular car, but you can do it much faster and probably with more power if you tweaked the engine.

You can train for triathlon without weight and have a good results, but to train the muscles that your need in the race you need to add weight training in your routine. By including weight training, you built a better muscle which is stronger. Having said that, you will be able to perform better since you have a better "engine".

In addition, adding some mass will help your mentality for the race. When you look good, you feel good, and you race good.. I found it hard to understood the common believe when you train for endurance sports, you abandon weight lifts. Why can't you have muscle while still doing triathlon? I want to look like someone who actually train for the race, and not someone who run to find food.

And if you were to tweak the engine, would you tweak it to improve the maximum power it could produce (say for less than 10 seconds) or the maximum sustainable power (say for an hour or more)?



That is a very bold statement and one which is not supported by research or the training program of the best athletes.  Some strength train, some don't.



There are lots of good reasons that people strength train; going faster in endurance sports is not one of them.

Shane

of course the biggest limiter is aerobic conditioning, but to say these guys aren't strong, which is what you said, is not true.  Pro cyclists have both strength and endurance.  Considering the number of watts it takes to sprint that fast, and that's only a small percentage of their max strength as you stated.  I'm just saying it was a bad example, as there are plenty of pro cyclists who are quite strong for their size. 

BTW, short bursts are effective in Passing, accelerating out of a turn, powering over the last wall of a hill.  Not saying you need to lift weights, but just noting that there are some benefits to having a decent burst to compliment a powerful aerobic engine. 

Wow, really? So in your opinion Chrissie Welligton would become even faster by adding weight lifting to her training because she would have a better engine? Gotcha, I am going to send her an email ASAP, that way she can win Kona next time, even beating the male pros!

One thing is obvious; your perception of what should work and what actually sport physiology suggest are two different things. But maybe you know something I don't and since I al all about trying to stuff to become faster I am all ears. Please can you explain in detail, the actual physiological processes that leads you to believe weight lifting = better muscle hence better engine hence better performance (for endurance sports)? Since you are all about anecdotal evidence, how long have you been practicing endurance sports? have you personally tested this that you suggest?

 

Psst, maybe there are some people who are self-confident enough that they are not concern at all about what others perceive as looking good. Plus that is a funny phrase because different people will have different opinions as to what good looking means. It is obvious your preference is to weight lift and since it makes you happy you should keep in in your training routine. But that is very different of the inacurrate info you insist in posting. One last time: endurance sports are about maximal muscular power and NOT about maximal muscular strenght. Those two are not the same things and the former is improved via specific endurance training (i.e. Lactate Threshold or VO2 max training) while the latter is improved via muscle hypertrophy through strenght training. (i.e. 80-100% of max strength).

Further more; strenght training does not = to weight lifting and ST can be achieved via sport specific training. This will become more important depending on the specifics of your racing event (i.e. ITU racing for triathlons), and there are good reasons to include ST on an athlete's training plan, however to include in order to improve performance is not one of them...

are we talking about muscular strenght or muscular power? if you refer to the former then I have to ask how do you quantify how strong they are? AFIK the best way to compare this is via maximal 1 repetition (1MR) effort. If that is the case I can bet you there are AGers as strong (in terms of 1MR) as Pro cyclists. Now if you are talking about the latter, then that's easy to test and compare via functional power threshold (max power for 1 hr) and power to weight ratio (W/Kg). For that I can guarantee you the W/Kg from Pros will be far and apart from the best AGers. Why? Because even when some AGers have the muscular strenght, they lack the muscular power; that is they have the ability to do a lot of work on short periods of time (i.e. 1MR), but they lack the fitness/genes to sustain a high amount of work rate  (aka power) over a long period of time (i.e. max power for 60 min).

To put it in another way; if muscular strenght is as important as you suggest do you think a power lifter could beat a Pro cyclists during a 40K? I am sure the power lifter has a lot more muscular strenght than the cyclists but I am certain the cyclist has a lot more muscular power. Let's take it one step further... do you think a power lifter could out sprint Mark Cavendish?

wow.. you've totally lost the point. 

I did? How so? You alluded that what I said wasn't true and I replied asking you something to make sure we are talking apples to apples otherwise it will be hard to discuss this. Anyway this is what I originally posted:
"Tomorrow look at the the cyclists in the TdF, most probably can't squat much weight but for sure most power to weight ratio are very high"

The point I was trying to make (maybe poorly) was that the strenght TdF riders might have is not out of the ordinary for world class riders like them. 

In order to quantify strenght (from them, yours or mine) we can do so by leg strenght to body weight ratio (LS/BW). That is how much is your maximal 1 repetition (1RM -> sorry on my previous post I had a typo) when compared to your total body weight. In general good (strong) male athletes would have a LS/BW around 1.5-2, that is they could lift one and half to two times their body weight. For TdF riders, how much weight do you think they can lift (i.e. squats)? Do you think some AGers can have the same LS/BW or higher than a TdF cyclist? (I do)

Considering the above, would you consider TdF (or elite triathletes) out of the ordinary strong when you compare what they can do vs a regular AGer? Again in terms of muscular strenght, I don't. Why? because their ability to produce maximal muscualr strenght and their ability to do a high work rate over time (power) are two different things.

Now if we talk about muscular power, specifically about their power to weight ratio then it is when we realize they indeed are world class athletes; a TdF rider can generate around 10.5 to 11.5 W/Kg for 1 min; that is for every kilogram of body weight they can generate 10.5-11.5 watts and  their 60 min max is around 5.7-6.7 W/Kg. I don't know about you but I don't know any AGer who can generate that much power per kilogram of body weight.

For that reason I said before that the key aspect for endurance sports is power and not strenght. And yes, sprinters or climbers have both endurance (power) to ride and entire tours day after day and some strenght (i.e. sprinters) to burst a lot of energy during the last 10-30 sec sprint of a stage but strenght per say is not as imopressive as their ability to generate power. Returning to the OP question and in terms of triathletes the answer is still no; we do not need to add weight to add success. If anything we want to have the least amonut of weight with the highest amount of power. (Am I still missing the point?)

you seem to think that I am saying something I'm not.  All I said was that there are plenty of pro cyclists who are quite strong.. (seems to be the subjectiveness of what strong means is what is getting lost here) I have no idea about doing a 2xBW squat, but doing a back squat takes a whole lot more than just leg strength to do properly. 

Besides, most TdF cyclists have different body comps than triathletes, which was the main point I was making.