login
Heart Rate and Target Zones
-
No new posts
|
 2004-12-05 9:23 AM |
Expert  743    Minnesota |  Subject: Heart Rate and Target ZonesI need advice on using my HR monitor and how to calculate target zones. Yesterday I did a running test and was able to push my max HR to 188. I jogged for about 2.5 miles and then pushed hard up a hill for about 90 sec. and hit a max of 187. I ran another 1.5 miles and pushed for another 90 sec. up a hill and hit 188. Was my test accurate enough and acceptable? Could my max be higher? The various formula's that I have used list my MHR between 183 and 185. I know that the 188 is more accurate because it is personalized. From the 188 I used a calculator at this site: http://www.sarkproducts.com/targetzonecalculator.htm.The target zones given were: Zone - % of Max - BPM 1 - 40-52% - 111-126 2 - 52-64% - 126-141 - Easy 3 - 64-76% - 141-157 - Aerobic 4 - 76-88% - 157-172 - AT 5 - 88-100% - 172-188 - VO2 Max Elsewhere I have learned that I should do my base training in zone 2. Is this correct? Zone 2 seems very easy an slow. Any help, links or advice would be appreciated B-One |
| 2004-12-05 10:54 AM in reply to: #89484 |
Master 2381 Dallas, Texas | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones David, Your testing protocol seems to be reasonable to me for determining your max HR. However, most of the recent literature I have read on HR training zones doesn't use max HR. The reasons max HR isn't used are 1) max HR is controled by genetics, 2) there isn't a training effect on max HR (it doesn't change due to workouts and training), 3) max HR decreases with age. The testing protocols in Friel's "The Triathlete's Training Bible" (TTTB) deterime your lactate threshold (LT). The LT is the HR where you go from zone 4 to zone 5. This is the HR where your body can no longer eliminate lactic acid from your blood fast enough to keep up with your work load. Thus, you begin to build up lactic acid in your blood (not a good thing). The other HR training zones are also determined from LT. There is a training effect on LT; in other words, you can improve (raise) your LT HR through training. Here is a link to testing protocols for LT: http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/determinezones.html . Once you have a baseline LT you can then re-test every 4-6 weeks to check the progress of your training. I used the testing protocol in the TTTB this week, graphed the results and it worked just like in the book. Yes, as an endurance athlete you will do most of your training in zones 2-3. The reason is that training in zones 2-3 teaches the body to burn fat for fuel. Fat is the most efficient fuel source in the body (9 calories/gram for fat; 4 calories/gram for carbs). It is painfully slow training - LSD - long slow distance. But, ask any of the members on this site who have coaches and they will tell you that their coach jumps all over them if they train at a HR higher than the scheduled zone 2 or 3 RH. TJ |
| 2004-12-05 11:14 AM in reply to: #89484 |
Expert 743 Minnesota | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones TJ, Beautiful, this is what I am looking for. I am sure that my LT is higher than what would be calculated by the chart in my original post. I can maintain a HR in the high 150 and very low 160s for quite a time span. I assume that my LT is somewhere in the middle 160s, but I will have to use the protocols from the link that you posted. I also know darn well that I have been training at too high an intensity, especially on the bike. I am beginning my 24 week base period this week and think that I may need to modify my plan a bit. Any more links or info on training would be a great help. Thanks a million for your help. David |
| 2004-12-05 11:23 PM in reply to: #89484 |
Elite 3498 Chicago | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones I would caution using Zone 3 too much for "endurance" training during your base trng season. Endurance is mostly gained in zones 1 and 2. zone 1 and 2 may seem slow but that's because all of us Type-A personalities tend to train too fast and once we get a coach or read some literature on what zones we should be training in, they always seem to slow. About 50% of my coach's clients always "complain" that they are running too slow and doubt his perscribed runs in zone 1. |
| 2004-12-06 12:25 AM in reply to: #89484 |
Veteran 184 MA | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones Only 50% complain? It seems to me that just about everyone complains about how slow they run in z1/z2. Deb |
| 2004-12-06 10:41 AM in reply to: #89679 |
Elite 3498 Chicago | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones Deb_B - 2004-12-05 11:25 PM Only 50% complain? It seems to me that just about everyone complains about how slow they run in z1/z2. Deb Ha, that's so true. Maybe the other 50% of his clients are used to doing it....not sure. |
| 2004-12-06 10:55 AM in reply to: #89484 |
Expert 743 Minnesota | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones Message Received. No Zone 3 during base and limited zone 3 during build (I will be doing sprint triathlons) Keep the pace excruciatingly slow during the base. Use zone 2 as determined by my Lactate Threshold. Next Question: At this slow pace, should I immediately increase the distance of my short runs and long runs? Currently I am doing three to four runs/week. One run is 5 miles and the rest are 3 miles. The plan was to work my long day up to 9-10 miles by the end of March. I have been told that I need only run twice the distance of my longest race on my long day. Should I be running for time instead of distance? What is a good rule of thumb on these issues? Thanks, David |
| 2004-12-06 12:05 PM in reply to: #89484 |
Elite 3498 Chicago | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones I always run for time rather than distance primarily because that's how my coach has my schedules made out...but also because I don't ever really know how far I've run (unless it's on a treadmill) and I'd rather not have to run somewhere that has distance markers because I like to sneak my runs in pretty much anywhere/anytime I can...ya know? Depending on your running background, be care on increasing the distances too quickly. Just because you are running "excruciatingly slow" doesn't eliminate the pounding your tendons, bones, and muscles sustain. Try not to increase your longest run of the week more than 10% while also paying attention to your total running volume, which shouldn't increase more than 10% per week too. Remember, slow and steady running does an endurance athlete make. |
| 2004-12-06 12:08 PM in reply to: #89484 |
Veteran 184 MA | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones I am pretty sure that TTB allows some Z3 in the later parts of base (this is for a 3 month base). Base is also the time to work on form and strength. I agree, when you drop back to z1/z2, it is better to run by time and not try to keep your previous mileage. Otherwise you can be out there for a long, long time. Deb |
| 2004-12-06 12:11 PM in reply to: #89818 |
Elite 3498 Chicago | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones Deb_B - 2004-12-06 11:08 AM I am pretty sure that TTB allows some Z3 in the later parts of base (this is for a 3 month base). Deb Good point....particularly since David is doing trng for a Spring Tri. |
| 2004-12-06 2:53 PM in reply to: #89484 |
Expert 743 Minnesota | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones TJ, Steve and Deb, Thanks for the replies. I am learning a ton from this thread. My 5k race pace was about 6:40 this summer and I would like to get that down to about 6:10 next summer. Idealy I would like my 5k in a tri to be about 20:30 I have been running long and short at an 8 minute pace this fall. I have discovered that this pace is too fast to maintain a zone 2 HR. I need to slow down. I'll still keep my short days at 3 miles, for now, but slow the pace so that my HR stays in Zone 2. I'll run my long day at 45 minutes and increase that by 10% per week with the 4th week as a rest week. I know that when I get to the build phase, one or two of my short days will become speed (zone 4) workouts. In the mean time, do I want to increase the duration of my short runs as well as my long, or should I keep the short runs under 30 Minutes? Thanks, David |
| 2004-12-06 6:36 PM in reply to: #89484 |
Veteran 184 MA | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones David -- what is your goal (distance, date) for tris this year? How much mileage are you currently doing? Deb |
| 2004-12-06 7:51 PM in reply to: #89484 |
Expert 743 Minnesota | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones Hi Deb I have my basic plan completed; I just want to get a good idea on how much I need to modify my current plan. Here is more info than you ever wanted... I currently run about 11-14 mi./week. My long is a 5mi. I wish to compete for series points. The four best races qualify for points and token bonus points are awarded for participation in two more races. I have 2 priority "A" races: -Aug 23 is my most important. It is a sprint tri in Nevis, MN and is the only tri I have experience in. It is a .25 swim, 14mi bike and 5K run. I placed 38th overall. The rest of my 2004 stats and my 2005 goals for the Nevis race are below: Rank Swim 100yd Trn.1 Rank Bike Rate Trn.2 Rank Run Pace Finish '04 109 10:32 2:24 2:18 32 39:37 21.2 1:38 32 22:11 7:09 1:16:16 '05 Goals 8:30 1:30 37:15 22.5 1:15 20:15 6:30 1:08:45 -Next most important is July 31. It is another sprint in Fergus Falls, MN. The swim is .25mi, bike is 15.7mi and run is 3mi My potential "B" races -July 10: .33mi swim, 15mi bike and 3.1mi run. This falls on the 7th week of my Build period and could possibly be my third or fourth most important. -Aug 28: .5mi swim, 17mi bike, and 4mi run. This could be an "A" race but is 2 weeks after my most important race and 4 weeks after my second most important race. -Aug 20: .75mi swim, 20mi bike, and 5mi run. I am thinking about this race simply because it fits into my Peak/Race period but I am a bit concerned about the swim and run distance. Also, this is an expensive race. My "C" races are both early races. -June 5: .25mi swim, 10mi bike and 3mi run. The distance on this one is right and would be an excellent early season race for me. It occurs in the second week of my build period. This could be the third or fourth on my priority list. -May 7: 600yd indoor swim, 14 mi bike and 3.5 mi run. This will probably be tossed unless it is inexpensive. Thanks for your interest and assistance. |
| 2004-12-06 11:16 PM in reply to: #89484 |
Veteran 184 MA | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones First of all, I would like to say that your times are awesome and I expect to see some fab race reports from you next summer! Secondly, I want to disclose that I am no where near as fast myself; I'm more book read than actually experienced in training. I'm hoping that Steve or someone else with more background pops in here with their opinion as well. So, caveats aside, I see that you already have the weekly miles to do something a bit more with your shorter runs without a great risk of injury. I think that it would get stale to go out and repeat the same 3 mile run 2x per week for 8 or more weeks. If you have the time, you could change one run to a "medium" run. Maybe start it at 45 minutes and hold it there. (You are starting your long run at 45 and increasing it week to week). So now you have some variety - a short, a medium, and a long. The second idea is to add some "strides" to one of the runs. These are short bouts of faster running -- too short to significantly change your heart rate. Take a nice long slow run recovery in between. These add some variety, and some people say that it helps your technique to do some faster running. You can builds these week to week -- maybe start with 2-3 speed ups the first week, and add one or two each of the following weeks. As I said earlier, you can also think about spending some time in z3 toward the end of the base period. You may want to check http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,,s6-51-58-0-1000,00.html It is a calculator where you can put in your time at a given length, and you will get back recommended pace for long runs and easy runs (as well as other types). This way you can cross check between pace and HR. Deb |
| 2004-12-07 11:49 AM in reply to: #89484 |
Expert 743 Minnesota | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones Deb Considering my lack of organized specific training for triathlons last year, I was happy with my times. I actually was a mountain biker, but never got better than middle of the pack. Finishing in the top 20 percent at the Nevis Triathlon last year with my limited training changed my focus. You have taught me a lot and given me some good links. You are more knowledgeable than I and I appreciate your input. I will research adding different distances and strides to my short or medium runs as well as some zone 3 and 4 stuff near the end of my base period. Excellent Link from runners world. I bet that my HR zones match quite well with the pace listed for each type of run. I am hoping for more input from others too. |
| 2004-12-07 12:54 PM in reply to: #90161 |
Elite 3498 Chicago | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones B-One - 2004-12-07 10:49 AM Deb Considering my lack of organized specific training for triathlons last year, I was happy with my times. I actually was a mountain biker, but never got better than middle of the pack. Finishing in the top 20 percent at the Nevis Triathlon last year with my limited training changed my focus. You have taught me a lot and given me some good links. You are more knowledgeable than I and I appreciate your input. I will research adding different distances and strides to my short or medium runs as well as some zone 3 and 4 stuff near the end of my base period. Excellent Link from runners world. I bet that my HR zones match quite well with the pace listed for each type of run. I am hoping for more input from others too. Be very cognisant of what zones you should be training in during what periods. Also, remember that your training zones will change as you become more fit throughout your season so obtain your lactate threshold every 8-10 weeks at a minimum and definately get it retested just before an A priority race. |
| 2004-12-07 1:05 PM in reply to: #89484 |
Master 1989 New Jersey | Subject: Getting back to the Heart Rate question.... First of all....in response to the post about Not taking Max Rate into account... Yes, it is genetic, and for the most part remains unchanged regardless of fitness level. But, you need it to calculate your zones. (If I just mis-read and the post meant don't train at your max rate, then I'll agree.) I would not go with any formula for your expected max. It's probably close, but I've seen people with very varied max's. To get mine, I did a steep hill run 3x, all out by the end. And actually, it still didn't give me my true max because I wore the HRM in a 5k race and got it a few beats higher. The Compleat Idiot's Guide to Heart Rate Training by John L. Parker is a great book to read. It'll say how your aerobic training WILL seem very slow....at first. But, the good news is, as you get more and more fit, your Resting Heart Rate will decrease, which will change the Rate you calculate in each of the zones. And you'll also find that to get your rate up to the same level, you'll have to run faster to do it. |
| 2004-12-07 2:15 PM in reply to: #89484 |
Expert 743 Minnesota | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones One commonality with the LT method and Karvonen Max HR method is that training zones will change with increasing fitness and need to be reevaluated periodically. I realize that we are dealing with theories here and that there is some uncertainty involved. Either way, I will be training more effectively whichever method that I choose to use. Steve, Do you have a link to a site that tells when and where and percent of workouts devoted to the various HR zones? I have a basic idea, but more info would be helpful. Runnerex, Can I assume that you recommend finding the max heart rate and then mapping heart rate zones using the Karvonen formula? I ask because using this method would lead to different training zones than using LT as my basis. Anywhere I can go to find out more? |
| 2004-12-07 7:08 PM in reply to: #90220 |
Master 2381 Dallas, Texas | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones David, Do you have the book "The Triathlete's Training Bible"? In the TTTB, there is a chart showing the training zones for a given LT HR. I haven't seen a formula for calculating heart rate zones using the LT HR, only these charts. There is a chart for running and a different chart for cycling. Also, if you don't have a specific training plan mapped out already, then I suggest the book "Training Plans for Multisport Atheletes" by Gale Bernhardt. I'm using her Olympic distance plan. She also has LT testing protocols similar to what's in the TTTB. One other question. Is running your strong sport? With a 6:40 pace it seems running might be your strong sport. You need to train and focus on your weak sport(s). For me cycling is my strong sport, while running and swimming are my weaker sports. I adjusted the plan to focus on running and swimming. TJ |
| 2004-12-07 7:57 PM in reply to: #90220 |
Elite 3498 Chicago | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones B-One - 2004-12-07 1:15 PM One commonality with the LT method and Karvonen Max HR method is that training zones will change with increasing fitness and need to be reevaluated periodically. The most incorrect thing about the Karvonen Max HR method (or any MAX HR method for that matter) for determining your training zones is that it assumes that your LT (or AT as it is listed on this calculator I saw) DECREASES as your resting heart rate decreases. So basically what the Karvonen calculator is saying is that as you become more fit (and your RHR decreases) so does your AT? That is absolutely incorrect because as you become more fit your LT and MHR start coming closer and closer together with the "perfect fitness" being your LT equalling your MHR. This miscalculation/misconception is the MAIN reason I am emphatic about using LT to determine training zones rather than using any calculators that incorporate max heart rate. Honestly, the only thing max heart rate is good for is .... well, nothing when it comes to determining your training heart rate zones now that I think about it. B-One - 2004-12-07 1:15 PM Steve, Do you have a link to a site that tells when and where and percent of workouts devoted to the various HR zones? I have a basic idea, but more info would be helpful. Honestly, I don't have any link. My coach tests my running LT and determines my running zones from it so I'm not sure. I can ask him how he determines them. |
| 2004-12-07 8:30 PM in reply to: #89484 |
Expert 743 Minnesota | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones TJ, I have heard of the TTTB and should probably invest. I have a specific plan mapped out. I have a 24 week base, 8 week build and 3 or 4 week peak. I thought I had it all figured out until I bought this stinking HR monitor and discovered that my intensity was too high. I am wondering how much I can increase the distance on my runs (short and long) if I slow my pace. 6:40 was not my triathlon pace, it was a pace in one of my 5k running races this year. My fastest 5K pace this past summer was 6:30 on a dead flat course. My 5k pace in the triathlon was 7:09. I'd love to do a 6: 30 pace in a triathlon. I had thought that cycling would be my best event, but overall rank in cycling and my place in running were both 32nd. My swimming rank (I did the side stroke) was 109. I think that my biggest gains are potentially in the swim and run. I am swimming 2-3 times a week this winter trying to follow the Total Imersion Program. I will be happy if I can swim freestyle for the entire course (.25-.75mi) and finish the swim feeling good. Steve, That makes a whole lot of sense to me. LT it is. Thanks! |
| 2004-12-07 8:41 PM in reply to: #89484 |
Extreme Veteran 494 Horse Country | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones Question (from a novice) about using LT to set heart rate zones... How do I get my Polar HRM to tell me the right thing??? I can think of two ways to start with... 1) Forget about the "%Max" display, and deal strictly in raw HR numbers when setting the limits 2) Determine LT HR, and arbitrarily set it to be "80%" of Max, then manually enter (LT/.80) as the max HR, so that at LT the readout says "80%" ... Which way do you think produces the best results? It seems easier for me to think in terms of %max, but OTOH, it's not all that hard to memorize the zones in raw HR either. |
| 2004-12-07 10:10 PM in reply to: #90309 |
Elite 3498 Chicago | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones BGTwinDad - 2004-12-07 7:41 PM Question (from a novice) about using LT to set heart rate zones... How do I get my Polar HRM to tell me the right thing??? I can think of two ways to start with... 1) Forget about the "%Max" display, and deal strictly in raw HR numbers when setting the limits 2) Determine LT HR, and arbitrarily set it to be "80%" of Max, then manually enter (LT/.80) as the max HR, so that at LT the readout says "80%" ... Which way do you think produces the best results? It seems easier for me to think in terms of %max, but OTOH, it's not all that hard to memorize the zones in raw HR either. I have a polar and i never used the %max. I strickly go by bpm. I have ranges for my HR trng zones given to me by my coach after we complete the LT analyzer test for both the bike and the run. for example, my running LT is 172 and my zone 1 is 134-143 so I just try to keep my monitor at 138-1399 the entire time i'm supposed to be in zone 1. i recommend just sticking to the actual bpm, it's much easier that way. sometimes when my tempo runs got a little confusing like 15 min in z1, 20 min in z2, 10 min in z3, 15 min in z1, I brought a little piece of paper with me with the times and the target HR (i.e. the middle of the range like 138-139bpm) make sense? |
| 2004-12-07 11:36 PM in reply to: #90331 |
Extreme Veteran 494 Horse Country | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones Yeah, thanks! I'll try that. |
| 2004-12-08 7:44 AM in reply to: #90305 |
Expert 690 Rocky Hill, Connecticut | Subject: RE: Heart Rate and Target Zones Steve- - 2004-12-07 7:57 PM Honestly, I don't have any link. My coach tests my running LT and determines my running zones from it so I'm not sure. I can ask him how he determines them. Steve, I would be very interested in how your coach goes about determining your LT. Also does he do this for both the bike and run or just once and get your zones for each discipline from that LT? Thanx Dave Edited by Hudnick 2004-12-08 7:44 AM |
|
|
|
|
View profile
Add to friends
Go to training log
Go to race log
Send a message
View album
CONNECT WITH FACEBOOK