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Minimum stroke vs. "working" stroke count
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 2005-02-17 11:38 AM |
Pro  3870      Virginia Beach, VA |  Subject: Minimum stroke vs. "working" stroke countIf I make a focused effort to extend my stroke and glide I can make 25m in 12 strokes...and I can repeat this over and over again. But when I move from drill mode to exercise working sets I typically end up with ~15 strokes per 25m. Although I've never really tried holding my "focused" form more than 50m at a time. Part of it has to do with my breathing I suspect. When I'm concentrating on the specific points of minimizing stroke count 25-50m at a time I only breath every 5-7 strokes but when I intend to go 3-4-500m+ I need to breath every 3 strokes. It feel like the action of rolling extra to get air has a negative impact on my efficiency...head comes out of the water a little and my stroke pauses momentarily while I grab air before going face down again. Not sure what my question is here. Does everyone tend to increase stroke count a little when they move from drills to a workout set? |
| 2005-02-17 12:18 PM in reply to: #118619 |
Pro 4206 Los Angeles, CA | Subject: RE: Minimum stroke vs. "working" stroke count I'm the same way as you. I not only increase my stroke count from drill to regular swimming but also if I breath more (per 5 stroke) or less (per 3 stroke). |
| 2005-02-17 1:39 PM in reply to: #118619 |
Champion 6786 Two seat rocket plane | Subject: RE: Minimum stroke vs. "working" stroke count What's your "swim golf" score at 12 strokes versus 15? Efficiency is not just stroke count, but how fast you're moving as well. ------listen to me (ha) giving swim advice (ha ha)____ ;-) |
| 2005-02-17 1:45 PM in reply to: #118720 |
Pro 3870 Virginia Beach, VA | Subject: RE: Minimum stroke vs. "working" stroke count I assume you're talking about something to do with how fast I swim. I started leaving the watch at home months ago so I have no idea how fast I'm going. I found that timing my laps cause me to focus on speed/power at the expense of efficiency so I solved that problem by not wearing a watch. I've been doing 75% drills for the past few months with no concern for how fast I was going...just focusing on position and form. So how would I calculate this golf score? ride_like_u_stole_it - 2005-02-17 1:39 PM What's your "swim golf" score at 12 strokes versus 15? Efficiency is not just stroke count, but how fast you're moving as well. ------listen to me (ha) giving swim advice (ha ha)____ ;-) |
| 2005-02-17 2:03 PM in reply to: #118619 |
Expert 751 Texarkana, TX | Subject: RE: Minimum stroke vs. "working" stroke count Swim golf is your stroke count + your time for 50 meters/yards. I usually do 50 meters in 27 total strokes, and that will take me about 46 seconds. However, if I ramp it up to 31 or 33 strokes, I can get my time down to 42 seconds or so. As a point of reference, I can easily do a 12-stroke length. However, in my lap swimming, I am at either 16 or 17 SPL. |
| 2005-02-17 2:04 PM in reply to: #118723 |
Champion 6786 Two seat rocket plane | Subject: RE: Minimum stroke vs. "working" stroke count TH3_FRB - 2005-02-17 1:45 PMI assume you're talking about something to do with how fast I swim. I started leaving the watch at home months ago so I have no idea how fast I'm going. I found that timing my laps cause me to focus on speed/power at the expense of efficiency so I solved that problem by not wearing a watch. I've been doing 75% drills for the past few months with no concern for how fast I was going...just focusing on position and form. So how would I calculate this golf score? ride_like_u_stole_it - 2005-02-17 1:39 PMWhat's your "swim golf" score at 12 strokes versus 15? Efficiency is not just stroke count, but how fast you're moving as well. ------listen to me (ha) giving swim advice (ha ha)____ ;-) Time yourself for 50 add your time in seconds to your stroke count (for the 50). Do it 5 or so times and take an average of the scores From what I have read in other places, 80 or less is a pretty efficient score. I personally think it's a pretty good way to measure progress in that you are not sacreficing speed for a low/slow stroke and you are not thrashing the hell out of the water and exhausting yourself to make a quick/sloppy 50 |
| 2005-02-17 2:11 PM in reply to: #118619 |
Buttercup 14334 | Subject: RE: Minimum stroke vs. "working" stroke count I'm not sure what your question is either. What is it you want to accomplish? If you increase your speed, you're going to increase your breathing rate; more output requires more input. As you build stamina/strength/endurance, this rate will decrease. Try doing some drills without breathing; swim 50m without breathing (or start with just 25m, not sure of your abilities); break 15 seconds and repeat 4 more times. Add this to your workout. You'll start to realize how much breathing you can do without as these drills become easier. Not sure if this addresses the problem as I'm not sure what you're trying to fix, or if anything needs fixing.  |
| 2005-02-17 2:19 PM in reply to: #118734 |
Pro 3870 Virginia Beach, VA | Subject: RE: Minimum stroke vs. "working" stroke count I don't totally agree with you...and that is the point of my stroke count question. Swimming faster doesn't necessarily require more effort. Reducing drag and improving body position/efficiency can lead to significant increases in speed without swimming any harder. I can swim 50m with very little energy output by concentrating on extending every stroke and taking advantage of the glide. I can also increase my stroke count a little and swim that 50m with what feels like less efficiency, but I've never timed both techniques and compared. I guess that's my next step...see how the 15 stroke method compares to the 12 stroke method and decide if it's worth striving for the lower stroke count on my working sets. Renee - 2005-02-17 2:11 PM If you increase your speed, you're going to increase your breathing rate; more output requires more input. As you build stamina/strength/endurance, this rate will decrease. Try doing some drills without breathing; swim 50m without breathing (or start with just 25m, not sure of your abilities); break 15 seconds and repeat 4 more times. Add this to your workout. You'll start to realize how much breathing you can do without as these drills become easier. |
| 2005-02-17 2:24 PM in reply to: #118619 |
| Veteran 293 The Emerald City | Subject: RE: Minimum stroke vs. "working" stroke count Not sure if this helps you, but I posted this to another SPL thread. It may apply if you start timing your laps. "I am always testing my ablility to lower my spl, but I learned from TI training that a low spl does not neccessarily mean efficiency. A swimmer’s lowest stroke count should be one that is achieved with no strain, no bad form or delays in your stroke rhythm, no extra kicking effort. It should be quiet, flowing, relaxed, effortless. If you lower your stroke count but your time to complete your lap increases, then you are not accomplishing your goal of efficiency. Be aware of a count that is too low. Since a swimmer’s breathing rhythm is connected to each stroke, a low stroke count also may cause oxygen deprivation. Think about the ability to hold that low stroke count for distance. If you can’t then you may need add a stroke or two to be able to go faster (or maintain speed)without getting out of breath and holding your form almost indefinately." |
| 2005-02-17 2:29 PM in reply to: #118619 |
Extreme Veteran 508 Kennesaw, GA | Subject: RE: Minimum stroke vs. "working" stroke count I do about the same thing as you. I can cross the pool (25yd) in 12 strokes repetedly, I've even pulled a few 11 stroke laps on some days. But when I loose my focus my comfortable SPL is 14-15. I don't consider my 11-12 stoke laps as my SPL count, it is just a product of doing drills. I feel like I benifit from the 11-12 SPL laps from the imprinting it does, but realize it is a temporary condition and not a measurement of my real swimming performance. |
| 2005-02-17 2:46 PM in reply to: #118736 |
Buttercup 14334 | Subject: RE: Minimum stroke vs. "working" stroke count I was presupposing that technique was not an issue and did not suffer with increased speed. If you want to push yourself to increase your speed and stamina, you need a watch. Timing your swims and focusing on lowering your times without sacrificing technique is beneficial. You need to put your watch back on or make use of the pool's giant timer (if they have one) to do timed speed drills. After your warm-up, do 5x200s on the 3:30 minute mark (or whatever is doable for you) and as these drills get easier for you, increase those drills to 10x200s. As they get easier yet again, decrease your mark by 15 seconds (to push yourself). And so on. Focus on maintaining technique AND speed and your form (stroke count/breathing rate) will follow. It *seems* like you are trying to focus on your stroke count hoping that speed and stamina will follow? Still not sure what problem you want to address/tweak so I don't know that my suggestions are helpful. |
| 2005-02-17 3:48 PM in reply to: #118745 |
Pro 3870 Virginia Beach, VA | Subject: RE: Minimum stroke vs. "working" stroke count Yep...that's right where I am. I can only pull 50m at a time with 7-stroke breathing...which is what I do when I get my stroke count town to 12ish. I can do 100m with 5-stroke breathing. Anything longer and I need to go to 3-stroke breathing which ends up comfortably giving me ~15 strokes per 25m...so that's my real stroke count. I'll just have to see if it's any faster/slower than my 12-stroke drills that I'm really doing to concentrate on the rotation, extension, and gliding aspects. tplauche - 2005-02-17 2:29 PM I do about the same thing as you. I can cross the pool (25yd) in 12 strokes repetedly, I've even pulled a few 11 stroke laps on some days. But when I loose my focus my comfortable SPL is 14-15. I don't consider my 11-12 stoke laps as my SPL count, it is just a product of doing drills. I feel like I benifit from the 11-12 SPL laps from the imprinting it does, but realize it is a temporary condition and not a measurement of my real swimming performance. |
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