Wetsuit - Farmer John or Full?

I have only used a full.  I would like to get a farmer john.  My suit does not restrict arm range(Promotion PowerGlide), but I miss the "feel" of the water that I get when I don't swim with a wetsuit.  

I am also interested in responses to this post...will also be swimming SF Bay and Lake Tahoe (brrr), water temps down to 55 degrees...

I have a Full Xterra Ventilator that I may be selling. I've dropped almost 40 pounds and I doubt that it would fit me properly. PM me if you have any interest and I'll send the size info. I've worn it 4 times and I didn't cut the legs or arms down so it's pretty much like new.



Edited by ChuckyFinster 2005-03-01 12:39 PM

First of all... warmth and wetsuits are typically secondary issues when it comes to wetsuits.

The key point to wetsuits is fit. If the wetsuit fits then arms or no arms becomes not much of an issue. A properly fitted wetsuit does not significantly inhibit arm movement. Those that do say they prefer sleeveless, do so because there particular body type doesn't allow for typical wetsuit cuts to fit them properly or they simply haven't used many wetsuits.

Full wetsuit is the best in many ways... first of all, it is faster and (even more important) it requires less energy to achieve this faster swim.

Sleeveless are best only if you have exhausted all fittings of existing wetsuit designs and sizes and have found none that fit properly.

As for a wetsuit being too cold or too hot... that is more dependent on water temperature (however, in some rare instances certain individuals can be prone to overheating even in USAT wetsuit legal races). In most cases, if the wetsuit is legal for the race (i.e., water temperature meets minimum standards) then a full wetsuit will be acceptable.

As for your feeling of your arms being bound a bit by a full wetsuit... well, that could be simply because of two reasons.... 1) poor fit or 2) you were over stretching. In a wetsuit, you simply don't have to overstretch to get the same pull. The bouyance will provide that advantage. That being said, the wetsuit I use allows me to feel almost like I don't have it on... so, I can reach out with ease. On the otherhand, I have a wetsuit where reach is limited but float is far supperior and removal is 0 seconds (...it comes off on the fly because it has a pull-up doubled zippered back - no peeling off required).

My suggestion... find a full suit that fits and your problems will be solved. If that can't be accomplished... then, considere a sleeveless.

FWIW

Joe Moya

I would highly recommend a full suit.
I have done swims in the SF bay and the pacific ocean in the winter in my farmer john, and to me it barely feels like I'm wearing a wetsuit at all! I almost got frostbite when I did the Alcatraz swim a few years ago WITH the farmer john suit.
The full suits are more practical than the farmer johns. They will provide that extra buoyancy and extra warmth. Most of the time, the extra warmth will be a welcome feature and the buoyancy is ALWAYS welcome!

By the way, since when is the SF bay 62-64 degrees? I've swum there a few times and it's always been in the low 50's, and that's in the summer!

Why is a full suit faster than a sleeveless? For half of the stroke, the arm is out of the water. For the other half, the arm is pulling through the water. The sleeves of the suit are neoprene and full of little air bubbles, so the force of the arm pull needs to work against the floatation force that the bubbles would be causing.

yet, for some reason, amongst many people who have done hydrodynamic testing, fully sleeved suits still manage to outperform sleeveless suits. Apparently, the savings while that arm is in the water is more than enough to make up for any supposed countereffect a swimmer may be encountering (like air bubbles in the sleeves? I can't say I've ever heard of that one, but it's a definite possibility).

As far as the shortie wetsuits are concerned, they are pretty much worthless. The do very little in the way of making you faster, although I suppose they could help people with body temperature issues (but as Joe mentioned, swimming wetsuit benefits traditionally have less to do with keeping people warmer/cooler, and more to do with time/effort savings).

The air bubbles are in the neoprene itself.

I'd be interested to see the test reports detailing the hydrodynamic testing of sleeved vs. sleeveless wetsuits.

Well, first... let's not confuse certain things...

Speed and efficiency of effort may not be the same thing.

You can be fast but to gain that incremental speed how much effort is required. With a wetsuit, the effort required to move the the water is reduced. How significant of a reduction is determined by many things... among this key determinant is the bouyance effect of neoprene.

Neoprene is bouyant not because of "air bubbles" in the material. Neoprene is bouyant because of gases produced in the manufacturing process. If you want to call the gases "air bubbles" - OK... but, that's not that accurate. And, there is a significant difference between materials bouyance. The more "pure" the the raw material the greater the number of gas pockets (or air pockets if you will). The resulting additional gas pockets also provide a greater insulation property. This is the trade off... more gas pockets more insulative properties. Insulative properties are not a good thing if you are active. This is where lack of absorbancy factors become the key advantage of higher cost neoprene.

Neoprene absorbs water... some absorb it faster than others. The purer the carbon material, the more likely the gas pockets are regular and numerous... plus, a metal coating added to the interior does two things... increased bouyance WITH additional flexability and reduces water absorbtion (making it more hydrophobic). All of these elements - purity of material, flexibility and hydrophobic make the more expensive neoprene the best material for wetsuits designed for swimming. Yamamoto is THE manufacturer of high end neoprene. And it is this company that makes almost all the wetsuits sold for triathlons.

As for the testing... There are a couple of studies... here is the only one I could find off hand.
What is says in a nutshell... is at an increasing velocity, the HR stayed relatively the same. That is what I referenced earlier as efficiency of effort. Full suits provide a higher efficiency of effort.

.... A study on swimmers using wetsuits which seems to indicate little difference between the speed of swimming between sleeveless and full suits (although this study appears to have been done with experienced swimmers so maybe that makes a difference).

SIRC ID: S-865588
Title: The effect of wetsuits on swim performance.
Author(s): Nicolaou, K.D., Kozusko, J.M., and Bishop, P.A.
Language: Eng
Total Pages: 7
Call Number: GV836.2 #300

The use of a wetsuit during the swim portion of a triathlon has increased in popularity over the past few years. The purpose of this study was to quantify the impact of both the full-body and sleeveless wetsuits on 800m swim performance. Nine collegiate female swimmers swam three counterbalanced and randomized trials of 800m. Velocity, distance per stroke, swimming efficiency index, heart rate, ratings of perceived exertion, and perceived comfort were recorded for all trials, full-body wetsuit, sleeveless wetsuit, and swimsuits. No significant difference between the trials was found in distance per stroke, ratings of perceived exertion, heart rate, or swimming efficiency index. No significance was found among three different comfort levels between the two wetsuits. Inhibition in kicking occurred in 50 % of subjects with the full-body wetsuit and 27.7 % with sleeveless wetsuit. However, significant differences were found in velocity between both swimsuits (1.28 +/- 0.059m/! sec) and full-body wetsuits (1.31 +/- 0.033m/sec), and the sleeveless wetsuit (1.36 +/- 0.065 m/sec) and the full-body wetsuit (p < 0.004). These results suggest that the use of a wetsuit compared to a swimsuit can increase velocity while maintaining a constant heart rate.

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Finally, there is another study comparing inexperienced swimmer with experienced swimmer's... it indicated the obvious... inexperienced (or poor) swimmers got the greatest benefit from wetsuits (no reference). And, there was a significant difference between full and sleeveless. According to Dan Empfield (founder of QR), he says there is a lot - see,

http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/swimcenter/longvshort.html

My opinion after wereing dozens of different styles and designs of wetsuits over 20 yrs. of doing this sport... for best results, buy a good fitting (this is KEY) full wetsuit. Unfortunately, not every off the rack mfg. wetsuit fits everyones body shape. Therefore, there will always be a need for sleeveless - but it not because of a full wetsuit being a disadvantage but rather it because the fit could not be match to the athletes body type. Hope this helps...

FWIW Joe Moya





Edited by Joe M 2005-03-03 12:37 AM

You should check out DeSoto wetsuits (http://desotosport.com). They make high quality two piece wetsuits. That way you can have whichever one you want, a "farmer john", a sleeveless, or a full sleeve. I just bought a T1 top (full sleeve) and bottom from them. I really haven't swam in the suit yet, but I can say that the staff was extremely helpful with sizing questions and very friendly. I would recommend them to anyone.

Hey Joe...

Nice answer man! ;-)

...besides the "scientific" studies, there is overwhelming anecdotal evidence to ignore.

Ok…to be accurate it’s nitrogen gas that the neoprene is filled with. Air isn’t that far off, since it’s 78% nitrogen. http://www.nemowetsuit.com/material.php



The sleeveless has a higher velocity. So in the 800m swim of the study, the full wetsuit resulted in approximately a 15 second quicker time over the swimsuits, while the sleeveless wetsuit resulted in approximately a 22 second quicker time over the full wetsuit.

Interesting that the Swimming Science Journal references that paper as “Sleeveless Wetsuits are Best” in their table of contents for hydrodynamics of swimming papers (No. 22 on the list): http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/swimming/hydro/table.htm

Too bad the study doesn't mention the color of the wetsuits. It would have been interesting to see the velocity differences between red suits and blue suits.