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Two-Beat Kick
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 2009-05-07 11:50 AM |
Extreme Veteran  369   Maine |  Subject: Two-Beat KickI attempted a two-beat kick while pool swimming today.... and the whole time, I kept thinking David Hasselhoff was going to come rescue me at any moment. I've seen underwater videos of a two-beat kick demonstrated correctly and have been spending time thinking my way through it, however other than "swim more swim more swim more", are there any mental tricks I can use to help myself to develop this better? My "normal" swim style right now is a fairly continuous flutter kick. |
| 2009-05-07 12:23 PM in reply to: #2136533 |
Expert 774 | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick Mainer22 - 2009-05-07 11:50 AM I attempted a two-beat kick while pool swimming today.... and the whole time, I kept thinking David Hasselhoff was going to come rescue me at any moment. I've seen underwater videos of a two-beat kick demonstrated correctly and have been spending time thinking my way through it, however other than "swim more swim more swim more", are there any mental tricks I can use to help myself to develop this better? My "normal" swim style right now is a fairly continuous flutter kick. Preface: I am a crap swimmer (1:45 for 100m, 48:00 for a HIM) so take this FWIW... I have tried a 2-beat kick, but I don't think it works for folks like me who are either leg-heavy and/or poorly-balanced, i.e, have trouble floating flat. My coach told me to abandon any thoughts of going 2-beat or 4-beat and go continuous until/if/when I ever can get more swimming horizontal. |
| 2009-05-07 12:28 PM in reply to: #2136649 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick greyg8r - 2009-05-07 10:23 AM Mainer22 - 2009-05-07 11:50 AM I attempted a two-beat kick while pool swimming today.... and the whole time, I kept thinking David Hasselhoff was going to come rescue me at any moment. Preface: I am a crap swimmer (1:45 for 100m, 48:00 for a HIM) so take this FWIW... I have tried a 2-beat kick, but I don't think it works for folks like me who are either leg-heavy and/or poorly-balanced, i.e, have trouble floating flat. My coach told me to abandon any thoughts of going 2-beat or 4-beat and go continuous until/if/when I ever can get more swimming horizontal.I've seen underwater videos of a two-beat kick demonstrated correctly and have been spending time thinking my way through it, however other than "swim more swim more swim more", are there any mental tricks I can use to help myself to develop this better? My "normal" swim style right now is a fairly continuous flutter kick. I guarantee I am at least as leg heavy as you. (My dead man float basically turns into me hovering vertically about 4" below the surface, guess that means I'm an airhead  ) Unless there are some problems with your stroke, your body position in the water should be maintainable enough to not have to continuously kick.That being said, you don't *have* to do a 2 beat kick. Anywhere from 2-6 beats is perfectly fine for distance swimming. You look at the top distance swimmers, they all have kicks in the 2-6 range, some even higher. (There's even one that only kicks into/out of the walls, lets them drag along in the middle, forgot his name.) Where it will hurt you is in harder efforts, the extra O2 the legs take and the extra effort to continuously kick will impact your legs during the run. Don't try so hard for a 2 beat kick, see if you can find something in between 2 and continuous. All you really want is just enough kick to maintain a good body position. John |
| 2009-05-07 2:10 PM in reply to: #2136533 |
| Master 2460 | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick I've seen a bunch of nice videos about that fancy 2-beat kick, and I'm giving it a try. If anything, I'm definitely slower with it, and I could probably go faster doing NO kick and just dragging the legs, but I figure that there is a coordination aspect that may be helpful somewhere in learning it. I guess I'm treating is as a drill and hoping some good comes out of it down the road. But yes, I do have some balance issues that seem to be exaggerated when I'm using this 2-beat kick. When I kick more, I think it compensates for my inferior upper body position. Strangely, when I don't kick (or minimal kick), I have a decent body position - likely because my kick is screwing everything up! |
| 2009-05-07 2:14 PM in reply to: #2136533 |
| Veteran 144 Ann Arbor, MI | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick screw that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i have like a 1 beat or no beat kick! i just do enough to keep my legs from dragging down too low and just save the legs for bike and run. besides, my swim kick is so weak, it seems like it contributes almost NOTHING to my swim. when i grab a kickboard and start doing kick drills, i go so slow! kicking hard/fast is too much energy investment for too little returns in speed. just keep your legs from dragging...and who cares if your kick is not 2 or 4 or 6 beats. |
| 2009-05-07 5:03 PM in reply to: #2136533 |
| , Texas | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick Funny, I'm the opposite of the OP. All I have is a two beat kick and an all-out kick (but that's only good for 50yds max). I would like to add a six beat kick to some of my training and I do all kicking drills as written by my masters coach. The way I see it, if you work your kick in practice, you're legs will be even more fresh coming out the water after the two beat kick in a race. |
| 2009-05-07 5:10 PM in reply to: #2136533 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick Mainer22 - 2009-05-07 11:50 AM I attempted a two-beat kick while pool swimming today.... and the whole time, I kept thinking David Hasselhoff was going to come rescue me at any moment. I've seen underwater videos of a two-beat kick demonstrated correctly and have been spending time thinking my way through it, however other than "swim more swim more swim more", are there any mental tricks I can use to help myself to develop this better? My "normal" swim style right now is a fairly continuous flutter kick. Here's how I explain the 2 beat kick: The purpose of the your kick is primarily rotation (and a little for balance). There's not much in the way of propulsion. When you rotate to one side the bottom leg kicks to propel the rotation in the other direction. The better the kick, the better the rotation. If you have a 4 beat kick, that means that your bottom legs kicks to start the rotation and the top leg immediately follows and COUNTERS that kick, slowing or hindering the rotation. The 6 beat kick allows for two kicks toward rotation, and one to counter, so you are netting out a solid rotation. Anything more than that and you are swimming from a shark in an all out sprint. So how do you get a mental picture? Hmmm. Think of kicking a soccer ball with your bottom leg. Swift deliberate and powerful. Of course the flexibility of your ankles come into play as well. I'm sure that there are better examples, but here is a video of my two beat if that helps any. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAkzF7fPWv4 Also, I wrote up a deal on the kick a while back, but there are a series of shots slowing down the kick itself. may or may not be of interest, but here it is. http://badig.com/2009/02/improving-your-flutter-kick/ Hope this helps some |
| 2009-05-08 10:01 AM in reply to: #2137389 |
Extreme Veteran 369 Maine | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick tjfry - 2009-05-07 6:10 PM Mainer22 - 2009-05-07 11:50 AM I attempted a two-beat kick while pool swimming today.... and the whole time, I kept thinking David Hasselhoff was going to come rescue me at any moment. I've seen underwater videos of a two-beat kick demonstrated correctly and have been spending time thinking my way through it, however other than "swim more swim more swim more", are there any mental tricks I can use to help myself to develop this better? My "normal" swim style right now is a fairly continuous flutter kick. Here's how I explain the 2 beat kick: The purpose of the your kick is primarily rotation (and a little for balance). There's not much in the way of propulsion. When you rotate to one side the bottom leg kicks to propel the rotation in the other direction. The better the kick, the better the rotation. If you have a 4 beat kick, that means that your bottom legs kicks to start the rotation and the top leg immediately follows and COUNTERS that kick, slowing or hindering the rotation. The 6 beat kick allows for two kicks toward rotation, and one to counter, so you are netting out a solid rotation. Anything more than that and you are swimming from a shark in an all out sprint. So how do you get a mental picture? Hmmm. Think of kicking a soccer ball with your bottom leg. Swift deliberate and powerful. Of course the flexibility of your ankles come into play as well. I'm sure that there are better examples, but here is a video of my two beat if that helps any. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAkzF7fPWv4 Also, I wrote up a deal on the kick a while back, but there are a series of shots slowing down the kick itself. may or may not be of interest, but here it is. http://badig.com/2009/02/improving-your-flutter-kick/ Hope this helps some TJ, that helps quite a bit - Thank you ! So if I'm trying to mentally visualize the process, would it be fair to say: My left hand hits the water and I rotate towards the left side of my body as my hand/arm extends, then I would kick w/ my left to begin the rotation back towards the right at roughly the same time my right arm would be beginning it's path forward, then I'd pull through with my left hand/arm |
| 2009-05-08 8:39 PM in reply to: #2138613 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick Mainer22 - 2009-05-08 10:01 AM tjfry - 2009-05-07 6:10 PM Mainer22 - 2009-05-07 11:50 AM I attempted a two-beat kick while pool swimming today.... and the whole time, I kept thinking David Hasselhoff was going to come rescue me at any moment. I've seen underwater videos of a two-beat kick demonstrated correctly and have been spending time thinking my way through it, however other than "swim more swim more swim more", are there any mental tricks I can use to help myself to develop this better? My "normal" swim style right now is a fairly continuous flutter kick. Here's how I explain the 2 beat kick: The purpose of the your kick is primarily rotation (and a little for balance). There's not much in the way of propulsion. When you rotate to one side the bottom leg kicks to propel the rotation in the other direction. The better the kick, the better the rotation. If you have a 4 beat kick, that means that your bottom legs kicks to start the rotation and the top leg immediately follows and COUNTERS that kick, slowing or hindering the rotation. The 6 beat kick allows for two kicks toward rotation, and one to counter, so you are netting out a solid rotation. Anything more than that and you are swimming from a shark in an all out sprint. So how do you get a mental picture? Hmmm. Think of kicking a soccer ball with your bottom leg. Swift deliberate and powerful. Of course the flexibility of your ankles come into play as well. I'm sure that there are better examples, but here is a video of my two beat if that helps any. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAkzF7fPWv4 Also, I wrote up a deal on the kick a while back, but there are a series of shots slowing down the kick itself. may or may not be of interest, but here it is. http://badig.com/2009/02/improving-your-flutter-kick/ Hope this helps some TJ, that helps quite a bit - Thank you ! So if I'm trying to mentally visualize the process, would it be fair to say: My left hand hits the water and I rotate towards the left side of my body as my hand/arm extends, then I would kick w/ my left to begin the rotation back towards the right at roughly the same time my right arm would be beginning it's path forward, then I'd pull through with my left hand/arm Yeah. I think that's pretty accurate. I think the exact timing may depend on how powerful your kick is, so I don't think there is an exact moment to kick relative to the pull, but I think generally that is right on the money. TJ |
| 2009-05-08 9:20 PM in reply to: #2136533 |
| , Texas | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick Mainer22, I believe the kick gives momentum/force to get the hips rotating which gives momentum for a powerful pull. At least this is what I've gathered from my masters coach. TJ, that is a freakin' smoooooth stroke. |
| 2009-05-08 9:24 PM in reply to: #2136533 |
| Master 2460 | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick TJ - how fast would you say you're swimming per 100m with that stroke in your video? And is that an easy effort for you? You're obviously a really, really good swimmer. |
| 2009-05-08 10:51 PM in reply to: #2136669 |
Master 1651 Breckenridge, CO | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick tkd.teacher - 2009-05-07 11:28 AM That is so true. All of you guys/gals down in the thick air may not notice but it's happening. I just recently switched to a two-beat kick from an easy but pretty much continuous kick. Here at 9600' altitude, you seriously notice any increase in O2 demand. Before I switched, upon just the slightest bit of increased kick effort I was seeing stars and had tingling legs from hypoxia almost immediately and there is no way to recover besides stopping to rest. So trying to swim at anything beyond an easy effort was a very delicate balance. Now with the two-beat, I can concentrate on maximizing each kick's ankle flex and use just the right timing. I really feel like I'm getting extra power from my stroke. I don't know if it's from kick propulsion or better rotation but it feels good. The best part is that when I increase my kick effort, I'm not getting hypoxic since my legs doing nothing between strokes. I'm able to increase my overall effort and hold it much longer after only about four workouts with the new kick. |
| 2009-05-09 8:13 AM in reply to: #2136533 |
Master 1411 Lexington, KY | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick Great demo video TJ - thanks! |
| 2009-05-09 8:19 AM in reply to: #2136533 |
Extreme Veteran 369 Maine | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick thanks for the additional information - very helpful in regards to the kick itself, described as mentally kicking a soccer ball, ok got it but what about the backswing? let the foot drift back neutral or are you whipping the foot upwards? I had a workout this morning focused on pulling w/ a pullbuoy and ankles tied, pleasantly surprised by two things: (1) not fatiguing even remotely close to the quickness that I fade when my continuous flutter kick is in play, and (2) the times weren't really impacted as much as I thought they would be by removing my legs from the equation. I'll be making a strong effort to get my number of kicks down, that's for sure Edited by Mainer22 2009-05-09 8:23 AM |
| 2009-05-09 2:25 PM in reply to: #2140270 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick Mainer22 - 2009-05-09 8:19 AM thanks for the additional information - very helpful in regards to the kick itself, described as mentally kicking a soccer ball, ok got it but what about the backswing? let the foot drift back neutral or are you whipping the foot upwards? I had a workout this morning focused on pulling w/ a pullbuoy and ankles tied, pleasantly surprised by two things: (1) not fatiguing even remotely close to the quickness that I fade when my continuous flutter kick is in play, and (2) the times weren't really impacted as much as I thought they would be by removing my legs from the equation. I'll be making a strong effort to get my number of kicks down, that's for sure Agarose2000: I am swimming about a 1:12 pace in that clip, plus or minus... Regarding your backswing question. The force is just applied downward, as the body rotation that the kick initiates will bring the leg up. The only time I apply force to my "backswing" is on butterfly. Happy to help! |
| 2009-05-09 4:21 PM in reply to: #2136533 |
| Master 2460 | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick Wow. That's the easiest looking 1:12 ever. You watch that and think "I could probably do that", but then realize that 1:12 is probably a pace I'll never, ever even come close to reaching with my lack of swim background. |
| 2009-05-09 9:15 PM in reply to: #2140732 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick agarose2000 - 2009-05-09 4:21 PM Wow. That's the easiest looking 1:12 ever. You watch that and think "I could probably do that", but then realize that 1:12 is probably a pace I'll never, ever even come close to reaching with my lack of swim background. It's not so hard. All you need to do is swim 50,000++ yards per week for about 10 years. Seriously though, there is an athlete I work with who ramped up her swimming for the last 2 winters and she is now starting to see 1:12 in her workouts. The effort level may be a bit different between her and I, but if you spend some time (even offseason time) on it, you may be surprised. Good luck with your training and let me know if I can help. |
| 2009-05-09 9:37 PM in reply to: #2141098 |
| On your right | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick At what level of newbie-ness should you try to work on getting into a 2 beat kick? For example, should you just try to learn it from the start, or work on getting overall form down first, then start focusing on other aspects, like a 2 beat kick? |
| 2009-05-10 9:48 AM in reply to: #2141125 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick Chaderbox - 2009-05-09 9:37 PM At what level of newbie-ness should you try to work on getting into a 2 beat kick? For example, should you just try to learn it from the start, or work on getting overall form down first, then start focusing on other aspects, like a 2 beat kick? Others, might disagree, but I think you should learn it from the start. It seems like breaking the habit of the 4 beat kick is like quitting smoking, based on the swimmers I help. |
| 2009-05-10 11:23 AM in reply to: #2141451 |
Champion 10020 , Minnesota Bronze member | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick Thanks for the links and video! I am excited to get into the pool. I have a good pull and swim faster and better with the pull-buoy or a wetsuit (so I don't kick), but my kick makes me a quivering mess. I have dreams of being able to swim okay without a wetsuit and I am def trying this. |
| 2009-05-10 2:08 PM in reply to: #2136533 |
| Veteran 144 Ann Arbor, MI | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick I just watched TJ's youtube video... OMG...that's 1:12 pace?!?!?! You look like you're doing NOTHING!!!! Arrggggg!!!!! Good swimmers frustrate me...because it doesn't look like they're doing anything...and they're twice as fast as me!!!!  Is it impossible to become a fast swimmer like that if you start swimming as a 30-something year old like me? Edited by slowpoke77 2009-05-10 2:08 PM |
| 2009-05-10 8:44 PM in reply to: #2141654 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick slowpoke77 - 2009-05-10 2:08 PM I just watched TJ's youtube video... OMG...that's 1:12 pace?!?!?! You look like you're doing NOTHING!!!! Arrggggg!!!!! Good swimmers frustrate me...because it doesn't look like they're doing anything...and they're twice as fast as me!!!! Is it impossible to become a fast swimmer like that if you start swimming as a 30-something year old like me? Not at all, but 99% of weak swimmers decide to focus on the bike or run. If you put in the same time and focus as you would the bike/run it will come quickly. It's just like golf. plenty of people get good at a later age. The only reason that the slower adult swimmer is getting beaten by the 11 year old girl 2 lanes over is that she is spending more time/yards. Don't give up faith!! Let me know if you hit some road blocks. Happy to help.
TJ |
| 2009-05-10 9:00 PM in reply to: #2141654 |
Master 2372 | Subject: RE: Two-Beat Kick OMG...that's 1:12 pace?!?!?! You look like you're doing NOTHING!!!! Arrggggg!!!!! Good swimmers frustrate me...because it doesn't look like they're doing anything...and they're twice as fast as me!!!! Is it impossible to become a fast swimmer like that if you start swimming as a 30-something year old like me? The reason that he's so fast is because it looks like he's doing nothing. Water is, what, 60x more resistive than air? Every bit you put into being smooth, long, and efficient pays off in spades. And, yes, it is certainly possible to make dramatic improvements in the water. |
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