General Discussion Triathlon Talk » traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think? Rss Feed  
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2009-08-10 10:15 PM

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Subject: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
Ok, this is a bit long, but I need to let this out...

Last Sunday I was swimming at one of my favorite parks (in Korea). The wind was pretty strong that day, and so the waves were pretty darn big. I won't go too much into my swim, but coming back to shore was quite difficult, especially since there are lots of sharp rocks near most of the inlets along the coast (the coast is partially cliff, partially inlets).

Anyway, after swimming (and getting reprimanded by Koreans for swimming in the big waves because it was 'dangerous' ), my Coach and I were walking back towards the inlet where I started. There were a bunch of kids playing in the waves in the shallow end, like they were when I started swimming 20 minutes ago (yea, short swim I know, but it WAS decently dangerous so my Coach thought I should stop at 20min).

Anyway, as we were coming closer, I saw someone who looked like they were in distress. I wasn't exactly sure, but my Coach and I both started running down the cliff in anycase. As I got closer down I realized he was seriously in trouble, and as this pathway down to the water is really steep and full of rocks you need to use your hands if you don't want to twist/break anything, so I chucked my jacket and cap and goggles down (somewhere) to get down as fast as possible.

We had a board which I attach to my foot when I am swimming in open water for visibility, so I threw off my shoes, attached that to my foot, and was about to dive in without my goggles, because I knew I had thrown them down and it might take me 10 seconds or so to find them and right before I attached the board to my foot the boy stopped moving, so I didn't want to waste any time. But my Coach yelled at me to get the goggles, so I found them, and dove in.

The waves, when swimming to and from the beach rather than parallel with, were really strong. Getting to him wasn't too bad (only about 20 meters), but once I got to him, like I said, he was unconscious, so I couldn't put him on the board. I grabbed him under my arm and began to swim back to the shore, but when going inwards the pull of the waves was really strong, and depending on how many we encountered, it might take up to 3 or 4 minutes to get him back, assuming that I could even hold on to him continuously which probably wouldn't have happened (multiple grabs).

However, much closer was a rock. I stupidly thought, maybe if I bring him to this rock, I can get his back on there, and then transfer him from this rock to the more secure rock (where my Coach could easily access to help him up), but which was connected but partially underwater, thus at the mercy of the waves when they came. In any case, I got to the rock, a wave came, and he slipped away from me. I went after him again, brought him back, and another big wave came, he slipped away, and I went tumbling into the nearby cove-area, surrounded by rocks and an omnipresence of white water. At that point, knowing my life was now in danger, I had to focus on saving myself, and eventually climbed out of the cove, uncontrollable sobbing, and needless to say, traumatized: partially from almost getting smacked on a rock myself, but mostly because I had the potential life of this kid in my hands and because I tried to take the closer, but more-dangerous way out, we weren't able to attempt CPR (which I really think would have worked).

Anyway, I'm not blaming myself too much, because I didn't know the area extremely well and hadn't thought out the repercussions, but nonetheless, I feel like I was thinking somewhat rationally at the time and should have known better.

Honest opinion (if any of you have made it this far): if you saw someone do this, what would your reaction be? (Really, bring it on. Koreans are very honest so I am used to more brutal honesty. In any case just talking about it makes me feel better and I know that even if people think I made a poor decision that they can't completely put me at fault).

Thanks so much for your contribution. It's been a rough past few days and I'm trying to get over it best as possible.

Edited by cam224 2009-08-10 10:20 PM


2009-08-10 10:26 PM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
Yeesh. Horrible experience.

Sometimes there's just nothing you can do, and you just do the best you can with what's available. It sounds like you did that. There are so many things that were at play there--weather, surf, your own strength in the water--that you absolutely can't blame yourself for any of it.

I've unfortunately had patients die before my eyes, and it's a horrible feeling. Every single time it happens I beat myself up for a good while trying to think of what I could've done better/differently/etc. Sometimes there's something, other times there's not. Sick people with bad problems tend to die, and there's not much you can do about it. I've watched a 31-year-old mother of 4 in liver failure bleed to death, knowing there was nothing I could do to fix it. The feeling just sucks. It wasn't till I sat and talked with a mentor of mine a few days later that I felt right about things again and realized that the futility of her condition was not MY failure.

You didn't put that person in the water, and you didn't cause them to have whatever their medical problem was. You did the best that you could in the situation you were handed, and sometimes the odds are against you.

Statistically speaking, a patient who suffers some type of cardiopulmonary arrest in the field and has a delayed transport time is NOT going to survive, at least not neurologically intact. I know it's easy for me to say, but I wouldn't be too hard on yourself with this one.
2009-08-10 10:26 PM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
First rule of search and rescue:  Never become a victim yourself, you'll only compound the problem.
 
You did the right thing, but you wouldn't be a human being if you didn't feel like you are right now.  You did your best, nobody can ask any more of you than what you did.  Something I've learned in two short years of law enforcement when things like this happen a shockingly large majority of people do absolutely nothing.  You tried, and in the end you made the decision anyone would have had to make.

Edited by JZig 2009-08-10 10:31 PM
2009-08-10 10:33 PM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?

Wow... I have nothing to say except I can't imagine what that must have been like to go through.  My deepest sympathy that you had to experience that.  You did everything you could when others would have looked the other way. 



Edited by Global 2009-08-10 10:40 PM
2009-08-10 10:44 PM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
Wow... That would be hard.

Remember. Right or wrong, you acted. I'll bet if you think back to what was going on around you when you saw that kid, there were others who saw the person but did nothing. Situations like that can paralyze people. But you acted, you did what you thought was the best thing and since no one was in the water with you, no one can tell you that what you did was wrong.

I'm sorry that it didn't work out for the best, but don't let it paralyze you if you encounter someone in distress again.

Don't second guess your decision. Deciding to act was the decision point and no one can fault you for going in.

Yeah, Koreans can be brutally honest. Don't let them give you any crap since it was your experience in open water that gave you the confidence to go in after the kid in the first place.

Edited by graceful_dave 2009-08-10 10:47 PM
2009-08-10 10:58 PM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
I'm a student paramedic and as Dr Pete said unfortunately survival rates from CPR "in the field" aren't too great unlike what TV shows often broadcast. You did your best-how many other people were around that didn't even attempt what you did? You put your own life in danger to try and save someone elses-an extremely brave and commendable act. Don't beat yourself up over it-like Dr Pete I have also watched people die and it's not nice but in the end when there's nothing more you can do there's nothing more you can do.


2009-08-10 11:13 PM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
You went well beyond what a first responder or paramedic would have done.  The situation was too dangerous to attempt a save, and you went in anyway.  I applaud your bravery and selflessness in the face of a threat to your own life.  You feel the way you do because you are human.  That will get you through this eventually as well.  The farther you get away from it the more you will realize the heroism that you displayed.  I hope I would try as you did if presented with the same situation.  I am not sure if I would.  I would take a bullet for my wife and kids, but to put you own life on the line for the sake of a total stranger is truly heroic and you cna keep that with you forever.

Bravo!
2009-08-10 11:16 PM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
I have no idea if you did the right thing jumping in to save him or going to the rocks. I have no idea. That's something you'll have to deal with internally. For every person that says one thing, someone will say the opposite.

I've been in situations where I just freeze and I've been in several where I just went 'for it.' However, I've never had such a crazy ending in any action I've taken.

I do have a question though. And this is nothing against you or your coach but I'm just curious, I assume your coach was a stronger swimmer, did he tell you why he didn't go with you? Again nothing against either of you.
2009-08-10 11:43 PM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
Thanks for all of the responses, every little bit of feedback is helpful, truly.

In response to auto's question - actually, he is not a stronger swimmer than I am, particularly in ocean swimming. I have a lot more experience in open water, at least recently, and while his first aid and cpr skills are probably superior to mine I honestly think that I had a better chance at saving the boy than my coach, and I think he thought the same.

My 'coach' and I have a very unusual coach-athlete relationship, also. It's very complicated, but if I had to sum it up, he basically has become my good friend (he and his family are practically like family) who I met luckily through an internet inquiry. (I was coming to Korea to teach English and wanted to train with a nearby triathlon team where someone spoke at least a little English, and they welcomed me with open arms.) He doesn't write out plans for me or anything, and I don't discuss all of my training with him, and I don't even pay him (very complicated, again...), but I am helping coach his youth team and help him with his English. These days he is not training much himself at all and although he has been in Ironman shape before, these days I am in overall better shape than he is.

Anyway, I don't take any offense to the question at all. I hope you don't think of him badly.
2009-08-11 12:24 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
To reiterate a few things:

1) you acted. Applaud yourself for keeping it together, cool, thinking, and working through possible solutions.

2) you stopped when you felt the situation was out of control. There easily could have been two victims out there - you did the right thing by pulling out when you did.

3) what you are feeling is TOTALLY NORMAL.

Now, I would very strongly suggest you try to find sources for critical incident debriefing. There are counselors who are specifically trained in helping people deal with traumatic situations, especially rescuer-type situations. I have no idea what they'd have in Korea, but it is well worth an international phone call to help you through this. The info for the New Hampshire team is: [url]http://www.littletonfirerescue.org/Info/granite.htm.

What you did took amazing strength and courage; draw on that strength and courage again to seek the help you need. If you had hurt your body out there, you'd go to the doctor. You have hurt your mind, and you need to get help to heal. Again, it is totally normal what you are feeling, all of it, I promise.
2009-08-11 12:36 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
You actions were based on your own perceptions, your physical abilities and with the very best of intentions AT THAT MOMENT.  You can not analyze this in the cool hindsight of 20/20 vision. 

Sometimes bad things happen.....You done good!


2009-08-11 12:50 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
If I saw someone do that I would be extremely proud and admire them. Anyone who is willing to risk their own life to save another is a HERO.

You are unselfish, brave and a good person.
2009-08-11 4:06 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
The last statistic I saw from my ACLS class (CPR on steriods):

4 minutes without CPR and you're dead.

That's NOT alot of time. You really don't know how long he was deprived of oxygen before you even saw him, add the climbing down, add the swimming to him, add the swim back, add the dragging him to a flat spot, add the positioning before CPR.

Yep. No way. You could have replayed this event 100 times, and I doubt he lives even once.

Stop watching Baywatch. You should feel proud, but to be brutally honest, not even David Hasselhof could have saved the day.
2009-08-11 5:58 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
I agree with all that's been said.  I am an icu nurse (12 yrs) and it is always hard to see someone, especially someone that appears healthy, die.  You did all you could and maybe more than you should considering the danger you put yourself in.  The chances of survival were slim for this person.  It is still hard to reconcile feeling related to having the victim slip away from you like that....they stem from emotions so logic doesn't always help. Hopefully posting here helps you work through this.

Edited by curlzrn 2009-08-11 5:59 AM
2009-08-11 7:05 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
You and the family will be in my prayers.  It will take time to heal.  You did the very best you could and you are a hero for even trying.  Just know many people will be praying for you.
2009-08-11 7:21 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
I'm sorry you weren't able to save him but glad that you were able to save yourself. Good for you for trying.


2009-08-11 9:18 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
Just to add something to my previous post-- talking this experience through with a therapist might be a good idea for you.
2009-08-11 9:22 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
I would think that person was a hero for going out into that water (when no one else did) to try to save the kid.

You did what you could. You tried. Good job. I'm sorry you weren't able to save him (her?). I'm sure you are traumatized and rightly so. At least you tried!

2009-08-11 9:27 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?

I am so very sorry for your experience.

As always everyone here has great advice and support.

I would like to suggest you take some time to allow yourself to feel the feelings you are having.
I am so glad you posted because 'talking' about it does make it better.  I hope you have someone you can talk to in real life about your feelings.  This was traumatic, no question, and we all know you did everything right, it is also important to take care of yourself.  It has been my personal experience that when I don't deal with my emotions they come back and bite me when I least expect it.

Take care of you.

2009-08-11 9:34 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
I commend you for acting and getting out there and trying.  Much more then most would do.

I also commend you for letting go.  You did the right thing.  You have to know you limits in situations like this and when to stay back, when to go, and when to let go.  You never want to become a victim in a rescue scenario such as the one you were in.



Edited by JC5066 2009-08-11 9:35 AM
2009-08-11 9:44 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
supa-powa - 2009-08-11 12:50 AM If I saw someone do that I would be extremely proud and admire them. Anyone who is willing to risk their own life to save another is a HERO. You are unselfish, brave and a good person.



 I think it will take some time to heal from the experience. You did your best in trying to save him, more than alot of other people would have done. Be proud of your actions. Big Hugs to you!


2009-08-11 10:08 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
KSH - 2009-08-11 10:22 AM I would think that person was a hero for going out into that water (when no one else did) to try to save the kid. You did what you could. You tried. Good job. I'm sorry you weren't able to save him (her?). I'm sure you are traumatized and rightly so. At least you tried!


I agree 100%.

I think the words "Brave" and "Hero" are overused in our society lately so understand the sincerity when I say that this is an instance when the OP is one of the few who are actually deserving of the title regardless of the uncontrollable outcome.
2009-08-11 10:46 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
Never apologize for saving yourself. As someone that worked for a 9-1-1 response ambulance company for 3 years, 1 victim - although a tragedy - is still better than 2.


The probability of you helping anyone in the future is exactly 0 if you are dead.

Your involvement increased the likelihood of a positive result, but in the end, it is just that -- probability.

Even with the promptest and best emergency response, there are still a percentage of people that cannot be saved.

Usually, you will not know who falls in what category, especially in the moment.

Just like airline video, there is a reason why you put the oxygen mask on yourself first.



As someone that has lost count of how many people have died in my hands, I still remember the first like it was yesterday.

I also remember the last... it was my honeymoon at Little Beach in Maui, I was making progress on my wife's phobia of swimming and water... until she saw me and some other guys pull an elderly gentleman in from the water and unsuccessfully perform CPR with two nurses.

I forgot how traumatic it was too see that for the first time until I saw my wife's face.






2009-08-11 11:02 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
JZig - 2009-08-10 11:26 PM First rule of search and rescue:  Never become a victim yourself, you'll only compound the problem.

x10

No matter what all of these wonderful people say, you will still have that guilt, the "what if I only"   Im a beginner triathlete, but lots of experience with rescue and psychology (odd mix).  

I would suggest:

1) don't try to deflect the guilt you feel.  It is natural and appropriate.
2) do understand that you did what you thought was best, and you did act the best way you could 
3) do speak with someone (a professional) so you can appropriatly deal with your feelings
4) it takes time.  I suspect you will never rid yourself of that day, but you will learn to live with yourself.  

Some people feel better from being proactive.  Take a rescue course so that you may be better prepared for "next time".  Some may donate an appropriate amount of their time or money, or goods to a certain charity or foundation. 
 
2009-08-11 11:08 AM
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Subject: RE: traumatized...if you saw someone do this, what would you think?
Very touching story. You risked your life against Mother Nature to give another person a shot at survival.  As has been said, best evidence is that CPR in the field is pretty low yield.  Probably approaching zero in crashing surf among sharp rocks.

The tragic outcome does not change the fact that what you did was truly honorable & heroic.  Your grief and self-doubt are evidence of your human compassion. 

All Peace be with you.

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