Two Party System
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2010-11-03 8:49 AM |
Elite 4235 Spring, TX | Subject: Two Party System I remember in one of my college civics classes having to write a paper on the two party system. I can't remember all of the details but I remember writing about how I very strongly felt that the two party system was a huge detriment to our political system. I also remember the professor taking the stand that the two party system is an inevitability and nothing else is sustainable. What are your thoughts on having two dominant parties? Do you think there's any chance of this changing in the future or is it inevitable to fad parties like the Tea Party will eventually fade away? |
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2010-11-03 8:52 AM in reply to: #3192559 |
Champion 7347 SRQ, FL | Subject: RE: Two Party System The "Tea Party" has already been swallowed up by the Republican party. The name is now synonymous with the Republican party. Any attempt at a third party would need a new name (even if it was the same platform) |
2010-11-03 8:57 AM in reply to: #3192559 |
Elite 4235 Spring, TX | Subject: RE: Two Party System My feeling has not changed since I was in college. The two party system is convenient, but creates an environment where good candidates who actually want to get elected have no choice but to align themselves with a particular party, even if they wouldn't otherwise identify themselves with that party. It also encourages a "one or the other" mindset among the American public. It's absolutely shameful that people do straight ballot voting or identify themselves with particular candidates for no other reason than because of party affiliation. It discourages people from learning the real issues, studying policits/government and making long term decisions that are good for the country. Political beliefs can't be plotted on a linear spectrum. I'm very 'left' leaning in some areas and very 'right' leaning in others, but the very fact that we use 'left' & 'right' to describe those leanings just shows our tendency to try to force people into political buckets that simply are not representative. I don't know if the current system can be changed, but it'll take a significant effort to make it happen. The Tea Party will be absorbed by the Republicans and disapear. The other minor parties will continue to make noise and do nothing of import. Until we develop term limits and start to eliminate the career politicians, we'll never create an incentive for the change. The "don't rock the boat" mentality has to be removed first. |
2010-11-03 9:27 AM in reply to: #3192580 |
Master 4101 Denver | Subject: RE: Two Party System AndrewMT - 2010-11-03 7:57 AM My feeling has not changed since I was in college. The two party system is convenient, but creates an environment where good candidates who actually want to get elected have no choice but to align themselves with a particular party, even if they wouldn't otherwise identify themselves with that party. It also encourages a "one or the other" mindset among the American public. It's absolutely shameful that people do straight ballot voting or identify themselves with particular candidates for no other reason than because of party affiliation. It discourages people from learning the real issues, studying policits/government and making long term decisions that are good for the country. Political beliefs can't be plotted on a linear spectrum. I'm very 'left' leaning in some areas and very 'right' leaning in others, but the very fact that we use 'left' & 'right' to describe those leanings just shows our tendency to try to force people into political buckets that simply are not representative. I don't know if the current system can be changed, but it'll take a significant effort to make it happen. The Tea Party will be absorbed by the Republicans and disapear. The other minor parties will continue to make noise and do nothing of import. Until we develop term limits and start to eliminate the career politicians, we'll never create an incentive for the change. The "don't rock the boat" mentality has to be removed first. I don't think the problem is term limits and career politicians per se, I think its the sheer amount of money in politics today and the amount of money that is required to get elected. Look at the Tea Party as an example. It started as a grass roots organization and had an enthusiastic but fairly small base. Their candidates would not have been able to be competative with democrats without the millions of dollars that republicans poured into their campaigns to help them get their message out. And without that, yes, they had a vocal and enthusiastic core, but that core is fairly small and wouldn't have had enough resources on its own to convince the moderates and independants they needed to actually get elected. By using the vast republican money to get elected, yes they are now in power, but are they now a third party or are they a wing of the republicans? I'm coming more and more to believe that what we need is an amendment to say that money <> speech and can be limited in various ways in elections. The problem with solely term limits is that there isn't much difference between one dem and the next or one repub and the next. yeah, you might change the person, but overall you aren't changing much. I think the first prerequistite for a third pary to be viable is people have to know about it - and not just know what the two big parties want you to know about it. And the way it is now any third party will be drowned out or have themselves defined by the bigger parties because they have the cash to do it. Right now the only way for a third party to have a voice or to define themselves is to get in bed with one of the big parties that has the resources to do that. |
2010-11-03 9:28 AM in reply to: #3192580 |
Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Two Party System Of course, some of the founders also objected to a 2 party system. I believe Washington was one who thought that candidates should run on their own, not backed by a party. Of course, he also started out seeing the president as taking his cues from the congress. But he soon decided that congress was too contentious to have the president following them (and clearly that has not really changed). |
2010-11-03 9:38 AM in reply to: #3192559 |
New user 900 , | Subject: RE: Two Party System If the Republicans do not heed to the rally call of smaller gov., less spending and personal responsibility, the party will be history and a new party that embodies those philosophies will emerge to take its place aka tea party. People did not vote for republicans last night, they voted against Democrats and their socialist agenda. Edited by NXS 2010-11-03 9:39 AM |
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2010-11-03 9:43 AM in reply to: #3192580 |
Iron Donkey 38643 , Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Two Party System AndrewMT - 2010-11-03 8:57 AM ... It's absolutely shameful that people do straight ballot voting or identify themselves with particular candidates for no other reason than because of party affiliation. It discourages people from learning the real issues, studying policits/government and making long term decisions that are good for the country.... If I vote, I do NOT pick straight party, since I don't care for any political party - I choose what I feel is the better/best candidate based off of what they support and I agree with. |
2010-11-03 9:44 AM in reply to: #3192661 |
Elite 4235 Spring, TX | Subject: RE: Two Party System gearboy - 2010-11-03 9:28 AM Of course, some of the founders also objected to a 2 party system. I believe Washington was one who thought that candidates should run on their own, not backed by a party. Of course, he also started out seeing the president as taking his cues from the congress. But he soon decided that congress was too contentious to have the president following them (and clearly that has not really changed). See, to me that's moving in the opposite direction from where we should be going. This reduces flexibility and means that there will be even less chance of voting for representatives who represent individuals. If you make the system even more binary, why would people take the time to get involved and learn more about the issues? No need to educate yourself if your only choice is Democrat or Republican. I agree that the money drives all of this and creates a barrier for new entrants into the arena. But I do think that the term limits are part of the problem. You get the same people coming back every year, and they have no incentive to change things up. The current system works to keep them in office and they'll likely do anything possible to keep it that way. The only way to make sure new blood is making it into office is to impose term limits. |
2010-11-03 9:47 AM in reply to: #3192676 |
Elite 4235 Spring, TX | Subject: RE: Two Party System NXS - 2010-11-03 9:38 AM If the Republicans do not heed to the rally call of smaller gov., less spending and personal responsibility, the party will be history and a new party that embodies those philosophies will emerge to take its place aka tea party. People did not vote for republicans last night, they voted against Democrats and their socialist agenda. This is not about the current parties or elections or administrations. This is about a system that limits our choices for elected officials and tries to fit everything neatly into a two buckets when reality is much more complex. It doesn't matter if it's Republican, Democrat, Tea Party, Libertarian, Green Party, etc. Those will all change over time, as our history has shown. Regardless of who the parties are, the system encourages that number to stay at two. |
2010-11-03 9:49 AM in reply to: #3192661 |
Master 1963 | Subject: RE: Two Party System gearboy - 2010-11-03 10:28 AM I'm not sure how I feel about campaign spending and big money backing. I mostly fall back on the 1st amendment, what's the difference between 1 person saying something and a group of people getting together and saying something? Both parties have their big money.Of course, some of the founders also objected to a 2 party system. I believe Washington was one who thought that candidates should run on their own, not backed by a party. Of course, he also started out seeing the president as taking his cues from the congress. But he soon decided that congress was too contentious to have the president following them (and clearly that has not really changed). Following your logic of not needing term limits, if people don't like political advertising can't they just ignore it in the same way they can keep electing their Reps/Senators, etc? I am just thinking allowed here. I don't think term limits will be the all out solution, but I think we need to stop these political dynasties from forming (BOTH parties) through term limits. We now have a political class all to its own. This class is treated differently and tend to act solely in its own interest. These people make great salaries, have great benefits, have many financial conflicts that arise over the years, and are rarely held accountable. I often feel like these people are running to keep their JOB, not running because they want to serve or have any real convictions. Many elected officials haven't lived as a "regular" citizen in YEARS. How can you govern something you know nothing about? Serving in office used to be called being a "public servant". I think the concept of servant has been lost over the years. |
2010-11-03 9:53 AM in reply to: #3192691 |
Master 4101 Denver | Subject: RE: Two Party System AndrewMT - 2010-11-03 8:44 AM I agree that the money drives all of this and creates a barrier for new entrants into the arena. But I do think that the term limits are part of the problem. You get the same people coming back every year, and they have no incentive to change things up. The current system works to keep them in office and they'll likely do anything possible to keep it that way. The only way to make sure new blood is making it into office is to impose term limits. I see the appeal of term limits, but I also think there is something to be said for institutional knowlege and bridge building. Politics is in essence the art of compromise and I think it's much harder to get to know the other legislators and build the trust and relationships needed to actually make compromisies and get things done if they are changing every 4 or 6 years. It also doesn't change the fact that whoever is elected is beholden to the cash that got them elected, whether it's their first term or their 20th. That said, I'd agree that something has to be done about politicians who have been in office since the Eisenhower administration and see the office as theirs, not the people's. |
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2010-11-03 9:57 AM in reply to: #3192559 |
Champion 7347 SRQ, FL | Subject: RE: Two Party System IMO this is what we need: 1. Term limits (2 terms you are out) 2. Campaign finance reform: Right now unless you are a (multi) millionaire you have very little chance of being elected. 3. Limited campaign terms. You can campaign for 4-6 weeks before the election. You have to stop the Friday before elections. Vote Tuesday. 4. If you hold an office you must resign the moment you choose to run for another one (incumbents are obviously the exception here but it'll only happen once, 2 term limit). 5. The President, VP etc.. should be forbidden from campaigning for their party. You have a job to do. Be the President, not a cheerleader for some Senator. 6. Get rid of free heathcare and ridiculous retirement packages for political offices. |
2010-11-03 10:00 AM in reply to: #3192725 |
Master 1963 | Subject: RE: Two Party System drewb8 - 2010-11-03 10:53 AM I see the appeal of term limits, but I also think there is something to be said for institutional knowlege and bridge building. Politics is in essence the art of compromise and I think it's much harder to get to know the other legislators and build the trust and relationships needed to actually make compromisies and get things done if they are changing every 4 or 6 years. It also doesn't change the fact that whoever is elected is beholden to the cash that got them elected, whether it's their first term or their 20th. That said, I'd agree that something has to be done about politicians who have been in office since the Eisenhower administration and see the office as theirs, not the people's. I agree with you on some things but not others. Politics is compromise and it is bridge building. The question is: who's more likely to engage in such bridge building? An incumbent who is basically guaranteed election every cycle because he's been in office for 30 years or the new guy who has to run on a platform of ideas and then try and deliver on those ideas? From what I can see, the longer a person is in office (of either party) the less they compromise, the more they pander to the interests that keep getting them elected and the more beholden they become to the almighty dollar. That plus they get spoiled with all of the perks, salaries, benefits, and power making them run for their JOB rather than running for the people.I don't think that state's should be "fighting" for resources as I favor a much trimmed Federal Government, but it's always amazing to me that the long time incumbents always seem to get more money than anyone else. Creating a perverse incentive to vote someone NEW with NEW ideas into office fearing that they will weaken their delegation and effectively lose their voice. |
2010-11-03 10:01 AM in reply to: #3192559 |
Buttercup 14334 | Subject: RE: Two Party System We will have as many parties as our benevolent overlords corporations decide we need to have. There is a Tea Party movement; in some states there are Tea Party parties. There is no national Tea Party party. "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman Edited by Renee 2010-11-03 10:02 AM |
2010-11-03 10:06 AM in reply to: #3192746 |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Two Party System Renee - 2010-11-03 11:01 AM We will have as many parties as our benevolent overlords corporations Politicians decide we need to have. There is a Tea Party movement; in some states there are Tea Party parties. There is no national Tea Party party. "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." - Emma Goldman Fixed for you. |
2010-11-03 10:14 AM in reply to: #3192745 |
Master 4101 Denver | Subject: RE: Two Party System merlin2375 - 2010-11-03 9:00 AM I agree with you on some things but not others. Politics is compromise and it is bridge building. The question is: who's more likely to engage in such bridge building? An incumbent who is basically guaranteed election every cycle because he's been in office for 30 years or the new guy who has to run on a platform of ideas and then try and deliver on those ideas? From what I can see, the longer a person is in office (of either party) the less they compromise, the more they pander to the interests that keep getting them elected and the more beholden they become to the almighty dollar. That plus they get spoiled with all of the perks, salaries, benefits, and power making them run for their JOB rather than running for the people. I don't think that state's should be "fighting" for resources as I favor a much trimmed Federal Government, but it's always amazing to me that the long time incumbents always seem to get more money than anyone else. Creating a perverse incentive to vote someone NEW with NEW ideas into office fearing that they will weaken their delegation and effectively lose their voice. I think you're spot on with most of that (although I'd disagree that the longer a person is in office the less they compromise - I see it in general as the opposite), although I think again, money is a big factor in it. One of the big reasons the same people get elected over and over is that they usually have a big money advantage over their challengers. Yes, name recognition and comfortableness with a known incumbent play a role too, but once someone is in office lots of people will give them lots of money towards their reelection to gain influence while they are in office, which gives them a huge edge in being reelected. |
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2010-11-03 10:14 AM in reply to: #3192559 |
Champion 6993 Chicago, Illinois | Subject: RE: Two Party System yeah the system will always go to 2. No more no less. 3 only lets the popular opinion swing to a less popular opinion. I think they need to get rid of ALL corporate money. Though I do not like some the political organizations so not sure how to really fit them into this mold though to prevent a shell company for corporations. term limits are good but not sure if I have them at 2. I do not mind the retirement packages they get. Trouble also comes from when a career politician retires and get a job with a company they protect and did there bidding for 20 years. Same time if you make it too restrictive we will not get good quality people. Who would go into office if you can make way way more money in the private sector? my own experience holding an elected office (board of my running club). I will tell you its very easy to do what you feel is right even if the people who worked hard to get you in do not agree with your decisions. One reason I feel bad and left because my supporters who got me elected ultimately disagreed with what I did. Bes to keep friends than have that power. |
2010-11-03 10:25 AM in reply to: #3192780 |
Pro 4277 Parker, CO | Subject: RE: Two Party System chirunner134 - 2010-11-03 9:14 AM yeah the system will always go to 2. No more no less. 3 only lets the popular opinion swing to a less popular opinion. I think they need to get rid of ALL corporate money. Though I do not like some the political organizations so not sure how to really fit them into this mold though to prevent a shell company for corporations. term limits are good but not sure if I have them at 2. I do not mind the retirement packages they get. Trouble also comes from when a career politician retires and get a job with a company they protect and did there bidding for 20 years. Same time if you make it too restrictive we will not get good quality people. Who would go into office if you can make way way more money in the private sector? my own experience holding an elected office (board of my running club). I will tell you its very easy to do what you feel is right even if the people who worked hard to get you in do not agree with your decisions. One reason I feel bad and left because my supporters who got me elected ultimately disagreed with what I did. Bes to keep friends than have that power. yes, I know most politicians are motivated by greed, power and money. but I would hope that we do have some that run for office because they honestly want to make positive change. I'm becoming more and more cycnical on politics but I would like to think that we have some representation by individuals that really belive they can make positive change and their self-interest is secondary. |
2010-11-03 10:28 AM in reply to: #3192737 |
Payson, AZ | Subject: RE: Two Party System TriRSquared - 2010-11-03 7:57 AM IMO this is what we need: 1. Term limits (2 terms you are out) 2. Campaign finance reform: Right now unless you are a (multi) millionaire you have very little chance of being elected. 3. Limited campaign terms. You can campaign for 4-6 weeks before the election. You have to stop the Friday before elections. Vote Tuesday. 4. If you hold an office you must resign the moment you choose to run for another one (incumbents are obviously the exception here but it'll only happen once, 2 term limit). 5. The President, VP etc.. should be forbidden from campaigning for their party. You have a job to do. Be the President, not a cheerleader for some Senator. 6. Get rid of free heathcare and ridiculous retirement packages for political offices. Oh my god, we almost agree. I do not believe in term limits though. Voters should set the limits. I would hate to have someone who is actually doing a good job not able to run again simply cause of a time line. I'm indifferent on 4,5 but the rest I think is key |
2010-11-03 10:37 AM in reply to: #3192711 |
Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Two Party System merlin2375 - 2010-11-03 10:49 AM ... I'm not sure how I feel about campaign spending and big money backing. I mostly fall back on the 1st amendment, what's the difference between 1 person saying something and a group of people getting together and saying something? Both parties have their big money. Following your logic of not needing term limits, if people don't like political advertising can't they just ignore it in the same way they can keep electing their Reps/Senators, etc? I am just thinking allowed here. I don't think term limits will be the all out solution, but I think we need to stop these political dynasties from forming (BOTH parties) through term limits. We now have a political class all to its own. This class is treated differently and tend to act solely in its own interest. These people make great salaries, have great benefits, have many financial conflicts that arise over the years, and are rarely held accountable. I often feel like these people are running to keep their JOB, not running because they want to serve or have any real convictions. Many elected officials haven't lived as a "regular" citizen in YEARS. How can you govern something you know nothing about? Serving in office used to be called being a "public servant". I think the concept of servant has been lost over the years. No thinking allowed! (unless you meant thinking aloud - then carry on...) Seriously, I do not propose we actually implement my suggestions. I think most people should and do ignore negative ads. I heard on NPR from one of the Freakomics guys that negative ads only affect about 1% of voting. We essentially away 2 billion dollars each season on political ads that have minimal impact. Personally, I care more about an ad that tells me what the candidate has done/is planning to do. And with the incumbent, there is at least a track record of whether they did what they said they would do (or at least tried to - one the reasons I am disappointed with Obama is that he has not seemed to even TRY to close guantanemo or end Don't ask, Don't tell). An upcoming candidate can promise the moon and the stars, but has no record behind them, for better or worse, of either attempting or succeeding in that. Given the nature of politics, having a track record of making successful connections and actually passing (or blocking, depending on one's POV) legislation is actually pretty valuable. Which argues against term limits. |
2010-11-03 10:45 AM in reply to: #3192737 |
Master 4101 Denver | Subject: RE: Two Party System TriRSquared - 2010-11-03 8:57 AM IMO this is what we need: 1. Term limits (2 terms you are out) 2. Campaign finance reform: Right now unless you are a (multi) millionaire you have very little chance of being elected. 3. Limited campaign terms. You can campaign for 4-6 weeks before the election. You have to stop the Friday before elections. Vote Tuesday. 4. If you hold an office you must resign the moment you choose to run for another one (incumbents are obviously the exception here but it'll only happen once, 2 term limit). 5. The President, VP etc.. should be forbidden from campaigning for their party. You have a job to do. Be the President, not a cheerleader for some Senator. 6. Get rid of free heathcare and ridiculous retirement packages for political offices. It's like you read my mind and wrote it on the interwebs. Except for: 1) I'd put it at 3 terms for senators and 9 for HOR, 5) Meh. No problem with them campaigni, they are the leader of their party 6) They should get the same healthcare and retirement benefits as any other federal employee - and have the same premiums. But to be honest, I have no idea what their system is now. |
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2010-11-03 10:46 AM in reply to: #3192834 |
Master 1963 | Subject: RE: Two Party System gearboy - 2010-11-03 11:37 AM No thinking allowed! (unless you meant thinking aloud - then carry on...) Ha! What an embarrassing spelling error. Need more coffee I guess Seriously, I do not propose we actually implement my suggestions. I think most people should and do ignore negative ads. I heard on NPR from one of the Freakomics guys that negative ads only affect about 1% of voting. We essentially away 2 billion dollars each season on political ads that have minimal impact. Personally, I care more about an ad that tells me what the candidate has done/is planning to do. And with the incumbent, there is at least a track record of whether they did what they said they would do (or at least tried to - one the reasons I am disappointed with Obama is that he has not seemed to even TRY to close guantanemo or end Don't ask, Don't tell). An upcoming candidate can promise the moon and the stars, but has no record behind them, for better or worse, of either attempting or succeeding in that. Given the nature of politics, having a track record of making successful connections and actually passing (or blocking, depending on one's POV) legislation is actually pretty valuable. Which argues against term limits. This actually goes to another point that I made another thread. I think regardless of where you stand on the political spectrum we should all be united in trying to severely shrink the Federal Government (in every way: financially, size wise, breadth, and depth) to live with in its enumerate powers. That way remaining power can, as was always intended, be left to the states and ultimately the people. I'd feel much more comfortable electing someone for a national position knowing that they were going to deal with a limited set of issues, I'd also feel a lot less like every state's election somehow elects me. I think the concept of a limited Federal Government has been dying a slow death at the hands of both parties. It needs to stop. It would open the doors to more issues being handled with policies tailored specifically to the people of the state, their wants, needs, desires, willingness to pay taxation, etc. It goes without saying that states also need to stop looking at the Federal Government as a piggy bank such that somehow the Fed Gov makes winners or losers out of states by apportioning funds. |
2010-11-03 11:11 AM in reply to: #3192559 |
Expert 839 Central Mass | Subject: RE: Two Party System AndrewMT - 2010-11-03 6:49 AM I remember in one of my college civics classes having to write a paper on the two party system. I can't remember all of the details but I remember writing about how I very strongly felt that the two party system was a huge detriment to our political system. I also remember the professor taking the stand that the two party system is an inevitability and nothing else is sustainable. What are your thoughts on having two dominant parties? Do you think there's any chance of this changing in the future or is it inevitable to fad parties like the Tea Party will eventually fade away? The problem with his logic (and what backs up yours) is that almost every other republic in the world has more than 2 major parties, and sustains them. We've got to look at what is wrong with the US that causes a two party system. Canada has 4 major parties in parliament - even Bloc Quebecois hold 1/6th of the house of commons and no one cares about them outside Quebec . The UK has 10 different parties in the house of commons (even though the 5 Sinn Fein members from Northern Ireland don't go on principle). Australia only has 2 major parties, but the 3 other national parties each hold at least 1 senate seat |
2010-11-03 11:22 AM in reply to: #3192954 |
Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: Two Party System Part of the problem is the voting structure discourages people from voting for a 3rd party candidate because that splits the vote and helps elect the party they *dislike*. Instant runoff voting systems avoid this issue, and they've even been implemented in some areas on the state level. But on the national level it's very unlikely to happen. The politicians who could change the law to instant runoff voting are in the two establishment parties. And both of those parties have absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose from such a system. Political beliefs can't be plotted on a linear spectrum. ^^^ winner! I saw a good graph awhile back dividing political beliefs up into quadrants and showing where some world leaders have landed on that chart over the years: http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2 Not surprisingly, both our major parties in the U.S. tend to land heavily on the authoritarian side, leading people to claim they are more similar than they'd have you believe. |
2010-11-03 11:47 AM in reply to: #3192780 |
Elite 4235 Spring, TX | Subject: RE: Two Party System chirunner134 - 2010-11-03 10:14 AM yeah the system will always go to 2. No more no less. 3 only lets the popular opinion swing to a less popular opinion. As Spudone stated, other countries show that this doesn't have to be the case. TriRSquared - 2010-11-03 9:57 AM IMO this is what we need: 1. Term limits (2 terms you are out) 2. Campaign finance reform: Right now unless you are a (multi) millionaire you have very little chance of being elected. 3. Limited campaign terms. You can campaign for 4-6 weeks before the election. You have to stop the Friday before elections. Vote Tuesday. 4. If you hold an office you must resign the moment you choose to run for another one (incumbents are obviously the exception here but it'll only happen once, 2 term limit). 5. The President, VP etc.. should be forbidden from campaigning for their party. You have a job to do. Be the President, not a cheerleader for some Senator. 6. Get rid of free heathcare and ridiculous retirement packages for political offices. 1. I would say 3 for Senate and 4 for House, but the need is there either way 2. Agreed 3. What about the little guy who needs more time to raise awareness? If I wanted to run for office, it would take a 2 year effort to get my name out there... 4. Agreed 5. Eh, no controlling this. Just don't go campaign on the US dollar. 6. They might need to be more reasonable, but I understand why they're there. |
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