Question/Curiosity regarding learning disabilities

I think education should be more focused on helping these children deal with the issues they have, and find ways to work through it. Many successful people have "problems". You can do two things with these issues, let them define you, or realize the life isn't fair, and that you'll have to work twice as hard as the person next to you to achieve the same things. Guess who usually turns out more successful?

Now, there are exceptions to every rule, and help IS needed. I just don't agree with the extra time on tests etc in college. In the real world, your boss or client isn't going to give you an extra day to do work just because it's hard for you. You'll need to learn to deal with it and perform anyways.

*gets off soapbox

I work as a pro bono attorney for a children's rights org in several areas of laws, including special education (IEP, due process, etc). I also only work with a public school district.

My opinion is, that it's not so cut and dry and it's very hard to give a black and white answer. What it ultimately comes down to is we try to give the child an education despite his/her disabilities through various programs, techniques, etc. All the other things, like life skills training, counseling, phychologists, or whatever, depending on the disability, are supplements to education.

"Just getting through" is not the IEP goal imho. At least it's not my goal.

I don't see a hinderance. If someone is disagnosed with ADHD or some other disorder while in the 12th grade of HS, how is the assistance hindering him if you give him extra minutes to take an exam? If you didn't give him the minutes or whatever else he needs, he most likely won't pass anyways. Then what, he just stays at 12th grade level education?

I see your point about your husband. But for everyone person like him, there might be thousands that didn't make it. There's no way to know either way so I'd rather be on the safe side and give the assistance, especially when they are younger.

Tough to say. I have a couple LDs myself, have taught students with all kinds of learning differences one-on-one, in group settings, and in mixed group settings (all HS and college, though).

Tough to say, because individuals all have their own struggles, backgrounds, age of diagnosis, resources, etc. and there are so many different kinds of LDs that manifest somewhat differently in each person. Educational resources and IEPs vary wildly between regions and institutions as well.

Some people will always need extra time to complete certain tasks, and they will need to pursue career paths that can accommodate that. Some people do remarkably well with (as appropriate) various combinations of therapy, learning resources, exercise, diet and/or medication and are able to choose whatever they would like to do.

There's a phenomenal duo of psychiatrists (both ADHD themselves) who do stellar research, teaching and writing about ADHD, although I think this particular vignette applies well to most LDs: they say that the two most critical decisions are choice of career/working environment and life partner.

I can only speak from the ADHD perspective. I wasn't formally diagnosed until I was a senior in high school. Part of the reason was that I went to a small, private elementary school. It was recognized by my mom and teachers that I probably had ADHD. They basically instituted an IEP without going through the formal process. It wasn't until high school that I started struggling. 9th grade was written off as adjusting to a new school. They watched me in 10th grade. In 11th grade my sister had far worse problems that took precedent over me. We started the diagnosis process at the beginning of my senior year and I started on meds about half way through. By this point, there was no need for an IEP.

I could have gotten an accommodations in college, but I didn't feel the need. I don't need extra time on tests. I could have used extra time on assignments, but all it would mean is that I was late for my already extended deadline. But that's just me. Perhaps if a professor knew that I would need reminders to get assignments done on time it may have helped, but that isn't the real world.

When I started writing I was going to say that none of the accommodations would hurt you later. But now that I've thought about it, I think there may be some legitimacy to you idea.

For ADHD people the path to success is heavily dependent on finding a job that plays to your strengths and minimizes the impact of your weaknesses, or being interested enough in your chosen profession that you can stay engaged. I found my career path when I was 18, but it wasn't altruistic enough so I tried 3 other careers before finally realizing I need to do something I can be successful at. Not something I think I should be doing. I really need an assistant to manage details for me. That's my ultimate career goal... To have an assistant handle all the little details and remind me of things I need to do.

Now, I tell the people I work with that if I don't get something to them when I promise, they need to remind me. I won't be mad or offended, because if I didn't do it as promised it means I forgot and it's never going to get done unless I have a reminder. I guess you can't always get away with this, but I found a position where my strengths far out weigh my short comings and my superiors are okay with this little shortfall because of my performance otherwise.

Edited by graceful_dave 2011-02-24 8:10 AM

The Delivered guys? As is Delivered from Distraction?

It wasn't until I read their books that I realized I needed to follow the career I was good at even though it wasn't as morally rewarding as the other careers I tried and failed at. They really changed my life.

I guess this is the point Yanti and I both try to make. You need to find the right career so that you can work within your limitations. But if you can't get past high school because high school is setup for normal kids then you won't amount to much. Having the help allows you to learn. LD kids should be getting far more then just some accommodations in school. They should be working with therapists and counselors outside of school to figure out what their strengths are, grow them and then doing career counseling to help figure out what is going to let them be successful in life.

As much as I love science, I can't be a scientist because I suck at details. For instance, one of my goes at a career was an environmental scientist. I'm great at field work. It was the 3 weeks of report writing after a week in the field that I failed miserably at. If I could be a field person only that would work, but there isn't much career advancement opportunity when all you can do is look for beetles in a wetland without being able to write about the findings.

Another go was Teaching. I am good at teaching. I am terrible at planning. Teaching is 25% actual teaching, 75% planning/details/grading. Since I fail miserably at 75% of teaching, it's not the right choice for me as much as I love the actual teaching part.

Edited by graceful_dave 2011-02-24 8:17 AM

I do realize that this isn't a black and white issue as LDs themselves fall into a rather gray area.  I guess I'm just hoping that the IEPs do  more than just teach a kid how to manipulate the system, which is what my friend admits is what she got from the whole thing (though I don't know that they were called IEP's then.)  I have no doubt that there are numerous factors involved, from the student to the teachers to the parents, etc.

While a slightly different scenario than those discussed above, my wife is a special education teacher who works with low functioning autism students. For these kids the IEP's are very specific at developing certain life skills and coping mechanisms so that as they get older and potentially learn more, they can have a little more independance. She has worked in the past with more of the learning disability type kids you are mostly talking about as well and for them, it was mostly teaching them how to figure out ways to get through it. For instance teaching some of her students with ADHD (or other attnention disorders) individual ways to focus for a given amount of time and then relax, then focus again. This was only one example she gave me, and this was all for elementary aged students. I have no idea about HS students in this area though.

in my mind I think they do more good than harm but to work it really is a group effort involving students, teachers, friends, family, therapists etc.

I was a preschool teacher for many years. I had lots of children with learning disabilities and I could manage that. My hardest year was the year I had two aides who both had ADHD. Holy Moly, talk about the wrong career choice. It was miserable. They were both constantly late for work (as in daily), could not remember their classroom responsibilities, could not perform a simple task without asking me how to complete it a dozen times. They were students #41 and 42 in my class. Yes they liked working with children but you are right on - that only gets you in the door. You have to have classroom management, follow a schedule, use your time efficiently. These are the areas that they really seemed to struggle with. I would give them tasks and have to redo everything. I mean simple things like hanging up the artwork the children made. I would find stacks of papers laying on top of a file cabinet a month later. I finally stopped giving them any responsibilities besides cleaning up after the children. We had meetings to review their responsibilities and schedules posted all over the room. The worst part was they would rat out each other as if telling on the other somehow made their work look better. It did not, and it was a horrible year.
Sorry for the run on, your comment just really brought back those memories!
No offense to anyone who may have a disability, just agreeing with gd about making an appropriate career choice.

What is supposed to happen is that you learn how to work with your disabilities (whether formal LD, ADHD, or other), in the same way you would learn to do so for any physical limitations (or for that matter, learning your personal stregths and weaknesses for anyone).  For some people, that genuinely may mean taking things more slowly, or having someone review things (e.g. for organizational purposes, or to make sure you haven't screwed up something like the spelling). The younger the kid, the more those sorts of external supports are needed.  The older you get, the more you should be able to compensate on your own, as awareness and motivation increase. (For example, I have treated kids who did not get diagnosed until 14 or 15, and wanted to stay off meds.  So we worked on skills that helped compensate for ADHD). If you cannot compensate (with or without meds), then that should be taken into account as you move forward in your life, figuring out what to do.

What actually happens some of the time is exactly what the OP describes. The person learns to look for the "edge" to get advantages at all costs.  Sometimes that coasting takes them well into the college years (or post-grad studies). And it hurts both the person themselves and other people with the disability.  It hurts the person because they never really learn to use strategies to deal with their problem. And it hurts others, because people think that all the help a person gets is really a fancy form of cheating.

Do you really want the first-responder at your medical emergency to say "I need to take twice as long - I have ADD"? Of course not.  Will the judge give a lawyer a chance to rewrite his/her brief because they have ADHD and rushed through it? I doubt it. The real issue is learning the ways in which a person's individual symptoms affect them, and then learning how to compensate.  In many ways, the same as anyone without a disability goes through life - you figure out what you are good at, what you enjoy, and what you need help with.  Then you try to find a job that you enjoy and are good at, find a mate that complements what you need help with (and hopefully vice versa).

From my personal experience, you really need to have it managed by end of undergrad and before grad school.

At that point, you need to have work-place comparable skills.

I have blogged about my experience.

There will always be some people will manipulate the system and the goal of IEPs is not to provide a platform for students to use to their advantage, but instead to provide the supports and accommodations to allow them to succeed.  Self-advocacy is a skill that we work on simply to help students recognize their particular needs and how best to meet them in order to be successful.

The reality is that we all have strengths and weaknesses and we have learned (or not learned in some cases) to compensate for them as adults.  Having an IEP just means that those strengths and weaknesses as well as supports required are laid out in a legal document.