General Discussion Triathlon Talk » tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time Rss Feed  
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2011-06-07 7:33 AM

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Subject: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time

0515, first time trying to swim with the masters this am. I am a new swimmer, just started lessons in October, but I have made pretty good progress thus far.

So this morning the first thing I learned is that I need to use the "divide by two" rule to swim with these people. Dude says "600 pull," I do 300 pull. 6 x 25 kick, I do 3. etc. Even doing that, it was still one of my best swim workouts ever.

They don't seem to do a lot of coaching or individual instruction; at least not this morning - which I probably do still need.

So I'm trying to decide whether to continue with private/semi-private lessons versus just joining the masters club. Budget precludes doing both. Any advice? Which do you think will get me the best improvement for my time/money?



2011-06-07 7:41 AM
in reply to: #3536452

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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time

I've never had private coaching so I can't speak to that, but I love my masters group.  I push myself much much harder when I swim with them than when I swim on my own.  Today we did 3400yds.  No way I am getting close to that without the group.  Plus I go faster and try harder when I am sharing a lane with 2-3 other people.

We don't get a whole lot of individual instruction at my group either, but our coach is quick to give tips and instruction when asked.  Just ask your coach to watch you a few times and give you a few things to work on during each workout. 

Oh, and no shame in working your way into the full workouts.  I come from a competitive swimming background (forever ago) and the first several weeks of masters were torture!  Just keep going and you will be keeping up in no time.

2011-06-07 9:38 AM
in reply to: #3536452

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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time
In my opinion I would move over to the Masters group. Most of the other swimmers are probably former competitive swimmers or are still competitive and at least in my group are always more than happy to help. And never worry about asking the coach questions or to watch you, that's part of why they are there.

You will definitely get better by swimming with the Masters group. Private lessons help with refinement of the stroke but swimming with the team will allow you to put what you have learned into practice. And the more you practice your stroke the more efficient you will become.

In addition, most Masters practices have drills and such built in to help you continue to improve your stroke.
2011-06-07 10:13 AM
in reply to: #3536452

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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time

I joined a masters team in the fall, and it was one of the best things I've done in terms of training.

I also don't get a ton of coaching, but if I ask for some pointers I'll get them. For me, the benefit is having a scripted practice, a set time, and other swimmers to push you. I'm in the second to slowest lane, and I always try to peek at the faster lanes to see how they do it. Just being around faster athletes will push you to get faster yourself.

Most practices are in the 3600-4400 yard range, and anywhere from 1:15 to 1:45 in length. Doing two or three swims a week keeps me in pretty good shape. Keep with it, and you'll reap the benefits!



Edited by natethomas2000 2011-06-07 10:14 AM
2011-06-07 10:27 AM
in reply to: #3536452

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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time

I am curious as to what folks call a "masters" practice.  If it is an affiliated USMS group then it is a Masters club.  If not, it is not masters, it is simply a collection of adult swimmers.  

My Masters club is awesome, 200 swimmers, full time coach who travels to all our meets.  We have tri and real swimmer workouts, three levels for each type of swimmer.  If you want to be a better swimmer join a USMS club if one is available in your area.

2011-06-07 11:26 AM
in reply to: #3536867

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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time
H20 Killer - 2011-06-07 11:27 AM

My Masters club is awesome, 200 swimmers, full time coach who travels to all our meets.  We have tri and real swimmer workouts, three levels for each type of swimmer.  If you want to be a better swimmer join a USMS club if one is available in your area.

MCAC?  I'm curious about the tri (not real swimmer) workouts.

 



2011-06-07 11:27 AM
in reply to: #3536867

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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time
H20 Killer - 2011-06-07 11:27 AM

I am curious as to what folks call a "masters" practice.  If it is an affiliated USMS group then it is a Masters club.  If not, it is not masters, it is simply a collection of adult swimmers.  

Well, their website is linked to USMS and they will not let me join unless I register with USMS. So I am going to take a wild guess Wink that maybe they are a Masters club.

Appreciate the feedback here. Pretty strong positive recommendation.

2011-06-07 11:54 AM
in reply to: #3536452

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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time
I was with a Master's group for 6 months before I had to move. Loved it and loved how it pushed me to swim faster. Funny how that happens when you know people are behind you in the lane! I would have liked to have joined one up here, but I have free pool access, so paying for it seems silly, especially since I don't have a job right now. 
2011-06-07 4:52 PM
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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time

H20 Killer - 2011-06-07 8:27 AM We have tri and real swimmer workouts, three levels for each type of swimmer. 

Careful. Your snobbery is showing again.

To the OP: I would need more information before I would blindly recommend a Master's group. Yes, swimming with Masters groups and tough workouts will make you faster, but if you are doing it at the expense of good form, then I would recommend more lessons. More work can only go so far if the form is lacking.

You've been swimming since October, what is your average training and race pace per 100m (or 100y, if you are in a yards pool)?

Most likely I would recommend the lessons on at least a semi-private basis, and spend $15 for "Workouts in a binder". Spend another 6 months to a year grooving your form, THEN hit it hard on the Masters. You will get MUCH more out of better form than you will tougher swimming.

There's a reason that people who have been swimming for years can just get in the pool and bang out 100's in 1:30-1:40, and it's not fitness. It's form.

John

2011-06-07 5:15 PM
in reply to: #3536452

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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time

I was considering joining a master's group, but I was concerned that IF I'm swimming with bad form, then I would just try to swim faster with bad form, but not actually get much faster. I don't learn well at all by watching others and imitating; when I think I'm doing exactly what I saw, it's not even close. I think I have decent form; I have a swimmer friend who spent an hour with me and told me I have decent form, but I'm so slow I'm starting to second guess that.

From some of these responses, it sounds like my concerns may be valid.

2011-06-08 7:55 AM
in reply to: #3537724

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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time
tkd.teacher - 2011-06-07 4:52 PM

To the OP: I would need more information before I would blindly recommend a Master's group. Yes, swimming with Masters groups and tough workouts will make you faster, but if you are doing it at the expense of good form, then I would recommend more lessons. More work can only go so far if the form is lacking.

You've been swimming since October, what is your average training and race pace per 100m (or 100y, if you are in a yards pool)?

Most likely I would recommend the lessons on at least a semi-private basis, and spend $15 for "Workouts in a binder". Spend another 6 months to a year grooving your form, THEN hit it hard on the Masters. You will get MUCH more out of better form than you will tougher swimming.

There's a reason that people who have been swimming for years can just get in the pool and bang out 100's in 1:30-1:40, and it's not fitness. It's form.

John

I disagree with this advice and not just because of the little dig up front.

I have seen a zillion tris do the "workout in a binder" thing for months on end.  At the end of their training cycle they are no better, no faster.  I have also seen tris of similar ability join a USMS club and, without exception, improve dramatically in six months.  Swimming alone without a coach won't make you better.  Swimming with a good coach and other swimmers will improve your stroke, speed and endurance.  

I don't base this solely on my observations but on the observations of two of the best USMS coaches in the nation, one, in fact, quite close to Gilbert, AZ.

Get to a team.  Get around other swimmers and a good coach.  You will not be disappointed. 



2011-06-08 9:37 AM
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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time
H20 Killer - 2011-06-08 5:55 AM
tkd.teacher - 2011-06-07 4:52 PM

To the OP: I would need more information before I would blindly recommend a Master's group. Yes, swimming with Masters groups and tough workouts will make you faster, but if you are doing it at the expense of good form, then I would recommend more lessons. More work can only go so far if the form is lacking.

You've been swimming since October, what is your average training and race pace per 100m (or 100y, if you are in a yards pool)?

Most likely I would recommend the lessons on at least a semi-private basis, and spend $15 for "Workouts in a binder". Spend another 6 months to a year grooving your form, THEN hit it hard on the Masters. You will get MUCH more out of better form than you will tougher swimming.

There's a reason that people who have been swimming for years can just get in the pool and bang out 100's in 1:30-1:40, and it's not fitness. It's form.

John

I disagree with this advice and not just because of the little dig up front.

I have seen a zillion tris do the "workout in a binder" thing for months on end.  At the end of their training cycle they are no better, no faster.  I have also seen tris of similar ability join a USMS club and, without exception, improve dramatically in six months.  Swimming alone without a coach won't make you better.  Swimming with a good coach and other swimmers will improve your stroke, speed and endurance.  

I don't base this solely on my observations but on the observations of two of the best USMS coaches in the nation, one, in fact, quite close to Gilbert, AZ.

Get to a team.  Get around other swimmers and a good coach.  You will not be disappointed. 

If you read my entire post, I do recommend the Master team AFTER getting the stroke work done. With poor form, there's really only so fast you can go before you have to go back and fix the stroke. I'd rather not ingrain a poor stroke for the sake of some speed now, I'd rather do the stroke work now, and sacrifice some initial speed up front for greater gains later.

That's why I asked for the current 100m and race paces. If the OP is already swimming at 1:50 or faster for race pace, then likely their stroke is good enough that it would be fine to do Masters now. If the OP is still in the 2:00+ range for race pace, then likely they still have stroke flaws that they would benefit by fixing first.

John

2011-06-08 10:08 AM
in reply to: #3538733

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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time
tkd.teacher - 2011-06-08 9:37 AM 

If you read my entire post, I do recommend the Master team AFTER getting the stroke work done. With poor form, there's really only so fast you can go before you have to go back and fix the stroke. I'd rather not ingrain a poor stroke for the sake of some speed now, I'd rather do the stroke work now, and sacrifice some initial speed up front for greater gains later.

That's why I asked for the current 100m and race paces. If the OP is already swimming at 1:50 or faster for race pace, then likely their stroke is good enough that it would be fine to do Masters now. If the OP is still in the 2:00+ range for race pace, then likely they still have stroke flaws that they would benefit by fixing first.

John

In fact, I did read your entire post and I disagree with your assertion, again.  I think even newbie tris will immediately benefit from joining a USMS coached team with others of similar ability.  The endless parade of the same sad swimmers every January and February repeating the same awful strokes year after year is all the evidence I need that training solo with a binder is a horrible bit of advice.  Get coached!

You don't have to be a fast swimmer to join most USMS teams.  Even the top teams in the country happily welcome beginner swimmers.  I see it every single day of the week.

2011-06-08 10:32 AM
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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time
H20 Killer - 2011-06-08 8:08 AM

The endless parade of the same sad swimmers every January and February repeating the same awful strokes year after year is all the evidence I need that training solo with a binder is a horrible bit of advice.  Get coached!

The OP is not training solo. It's a choice between instruction and masters. I choose instruction first. Silly me.

John

2011-06-08 11:02 AM
in reply to: #3536452

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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time
I was luckey enought that the Masters swim at my Y was included in the membership. I remember exactly what you are talking about the 1/2 rule. LOL I started back in January and they just kicked my butt. But I kept at it and about two months later I was right up with them. But considering that I would keep doing the masters but do not forget taking lessons. Masters will help you get better and swim longer but you need to work on proper mechanics that is the most important. Take a lesson twice a month if you can or even once a month. I am also sure if you ask your Masters swimmers they can show you a drill or two and explain why it helps. Good Luck.
2011-06-08 6:00 PM
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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time
I'm a slow swimmer, and have taken adult learn to swim classes X3 thru USMS groups.  Finally got over my intimidation and joined a Master's swim group.  I paid for a 1/2 hr private lesson with the coach first, so she could get a feel for where I am and advise if I should continue lessons or joing the Masters group. She felt I would be fine with the group.   Every class I'm in the slow lane, but although I don't get private instruction, the coach is giving tips.  I am definitely getting better as a result!


2011-06-08 7:07 PM
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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time

tkd.teacher quote: You've been swimming since October, what is your average training and race pace per 100m (or 100y, if you are in a yards pool)?

When I am training and swimming shorter distances - roughly 200 yards or less - I can keep at or just under 1 min per 50 meters. When I go longer, I have to slow that down. A good 500 meters time for me is just over or just under 11m30s. So, yeah, I am not particularly fast at this point.

Re form/technique - the feed back I have been getting from my teacher in the last few lessons has generally been along the lines of no major technique issues, just minor tweaks and needing more pool time. Most of the minor tweaks he gets after me about are issues I am aware of, and can do, and ususally notice when I am not doing them (though he notices sooner).

2011-06-08 10:17 PM
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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time
alath - 2011-06-08 5:07 PM

tkd.teacher quote: You've been swimming since October, what is your average training and race pace per 100m (or 100y, if you are in a yards pool)?

When I am training and swimming shorter distances - roughly 200 yards or less - I can keep at or just under 1 min per 50 meters. When I go longer, I have to slow that down. A good 500 meters time for me is just over or just under 11m30s. So, yeah, I am not particularly fast at this point.

Re form/technique - the feed back I have been getting from my teacher in the last few lessons has generally been along the lines of no major technique issues, just minor tweaks and needing more pool time. Most of the minor tweaks he gets after me about are issues I am aware of, and can do, and ususally notice when I am not doing them (though he notices sooner).

Ok, given the above information, I'd probably go along with H2O, and recommend the masters group. I generally consider 2:00/100 to be the breaking point. If you can get to there, then you *probably* don't have any major flaws holding you back, and you just need more pool time. If you are over 2:00/100 and putting in decent time, then you probably have some stroke flaws that are holding you back, and would benefit more from lessons.

If you put in a bunch of hard work, and find that you don't improve very much as far as time, then go back to the one on one instruction and find the tweaks that will break you through to the next level.

John

2011-06-09 9:42 AM
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Subject: RE: tried swimming w/masters' group this am - decision time

< don't have any major flaws holding you back, and you just need more pool time >

I asked the coach today about this issue. She said my stroke was good, particularly when I was fresh - needed some reminders when I started getting tired and/or working harder. But she's not shy about handing out the feedback, either, and had some good tips. I think this is going to be a good deal for me. I am definitely feeling Tuesday and today a lot more than I usually feel my swim workouts.

THanks again for the feedback, everyone.



Edited by alath 2011-06-09 9:45 AM
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