Cross Training
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2011-07-01 9:48 PM |
Veteran 201 | Subject: Cross Training I'm currently training for my first marathon and hopefully my first ultra. I'm doing the Marine Corp Marathon in October and if all goes well, there's a 50K nearby in December. I'm having a few issues with running (planters facitis and Achilles pain) and am having to rebuild my mileage. Do any of you cross train in addition to all of the running? I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how to fit everything in my schedule! I actually cancelled all of my triathlon plans for this year to try to get to where I need to be running wise! |
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2011-07-02 1:15 PM in reply to: #3577818 |
Champion 5312 Calgary | Subject: RE: Cross Training It is a challenge. Um, but, I checked your logs, are they up to date, if so you should start spending some more time on your feet. Speed is not as important as time and distance. I had moderate challenges due to PF. I really highly suggest doing some ankle/calf/leg stretches on a nightly basis. This really helped me. 10-20 minutes of yoga every night, sun salutations for the most part. If you can't get your mileage into the 50-60 mile a week area during peak training you can get some benifiet from biking or other cross training. However, if you don't have the experience of doing a marathon or an ultra, be very cautious with your pace at the race. Biking and swimming are good at training the engine (the heart) but do very little for the muscles and bones and tendons that you will be relying on during km 32-50. It took me a long time to even throw in 2-3 hours of biking a week on top of my running. Any more than that and, well actually I could do it physically, mentally it sucked but that was also possible, biggest problem was sleep or lack there of and the mounting fatigue. I found, for me, there is really only so many 14 hour weeks that I could string together before my body completely shut down and demanded an extended period of sleep or I gotsick. That said, it appears that this year is better than last year in terms of 14 hour weeks, so I suppose improvement continues to be made. Good luck. Your mileage looks consistant, which is good, just try to bump it up some and you will do fine. |
2011-07-03 7:34 PM in reply to: #3577818 |
Veteran 201 | Subject: RE: Cross Training Ok, so more running!! How many days a week should you run? How many miles minimum do you run in a day for it to count? I'm 17 weeks out from the MCM and now I'm rethinking my whole training plan! I was planning on doing one of the Hal Higdon programs, but am no longer sure which one is the best to use!! As for the speed concerns, I'm a REALLY slow runner and the MCM has stringent (for me) time goals!! I'm terrified that I won't make it!!! |
2011-07-03 9:35 PM in reply to: #3577818 |
Champion 5312 Calgary | Subject: RE: Cross Training There is no magic formula. Okay, there is but everyone's is differnet. I would suggest to you though, for the next 17 weeks you, I mean, I don't know. Your volume and pace and base are low low low. I don't know what your goal is. I don't know what the cut offs are for your race. Anyways, 17 weeks is a long time if you do things right. You need to spend as much time on your feet as possible. Going for a 12 minute run is not doing it. In M training you need to get out there and run an hour a day, 5 days a week and 2 hours on the weekend. Find and follow a decent plan that starts at 30k a week and peaks at 70. Take it super duper slow. Don't push yourself in any tempo or interval training, I don't think that you have the base to do it and ramp your mileage and not get injured. If it were me, I would aim for 10k a day and 20k on Sat or Sunday. Simple. If you have to walk 80 percent of it then that is the way it is. Do that for 5-7 weeks in the second half of your program (well try to work the long run up to 30k if you can), taper for 2 weeks and then see what you got. Edited by BigDH 2011-07-03 9:35 PM |
2011-07-05 2:11 AM in reply to: #3577818 |
Extreme Veteran 877 Pa | Subject: RE: Cross Training I agree that you need to be on your feet more. Who cares about the pace :-) I'm a slow runner, too - I don't worry about that. What's the cut off for the MCM? It can't be less than a 14mph cutoff. That's plenty of time. I think BigDH's suggestions are solid. I knew a runner who would do her runs then later in the day would throw in some fast walking in the evening just to get more time on her feet and trying to avoid injury with running too much (for her).
If you are throwing in walking during your runs maybe you can practice walking at a decent clip. Lots of folks I know walk pretty leisurely. Picking up your walk pace, if you have to walk/run, will help with in beating the cutoff. |
2011-07-05 10:58 AM in reply to: #3577818 |
Veteran 201 | Subject: RE: Cross Training Thanks so much for the information! In the MCM, you have to maintain 14 min miles up to 20 miles or you get picked up by a bus and taken to the DNF line! I refuse to ride that darn bus!! I am going to take all of the advice and start running LOTS more!! I'm not sure if my Achilles/PF issues are ready for a 10K every day, but I'm going to run a minimum of 6 days a week. This is my schedule for this week (I got this from the Marathon Countdown book) and I'll continue to build up from here: Monday - 5 miles Tuesday - 40-50 mins easy pace (should be about 4 miles at my pace) Wednesday - 4 miles Thursday - 40-50 mins easy pace (should be about 4 miles at my pace) Friday - 40 -50 mins easy pace (should be about 4 miles at my pace) Saturday - 10 miles BTW...the 12 mins of running on my schedule last week is an anomaly. I try to run a minium of 3 miles every time I go out, however that day I had some SEVERE GI issues and had no choice but to sprint (the fastest I've ever ran) home!!!!! |
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2011-07-06 2:58 AM in reply to: #3581157 |
Extreme Veteran 877 Pa | Subject: RE: Cross Training crisi13 - 2011-07-05 11:58 AM Thanks so much for the information! In the MCM, you have to maintain 14 min miles up to 20 miles or you get picked up by a bus and taken to the DNF line! I refuse to ride that darn bus!! I am going to take all of the advice and start running LOTS more!! I'm not sure if my Achilles/PF issues are ready for a 10K every day, but I'm going to run a minimum of 6 days a week. This is my schedule for this week (I got this from the Marathon Countdown book) and I'll continue to build up from here: Monday - 5 miles Tuesday - 40-50 mins easy pace (should be about 4 miles at my pace) Wednesday - 4 miles Thursday - 40-50 mins easy pace (should be about 4 miles at my pace) Friday - 40 -50 mins easy pace (should be about 4 miles at my pace) Saturday - 10 miles BTW...the 12 mins of running on my schedule last week is an anomaly. I try to run a minium of 3 miles every time I go out, however that day I had some SEVERE GI issues and had no choice but to sprint (the fastest I've ever ran) home!!!!!
I think that's manageable - I guess as long as you make it to the 20 mile mark by the time limit you can take as long as you want for that last 6? I'm not sure if you're use to running 6 days a week. If not, just listen to your body and add recovery weeks. I make that mistake all too often. At some point, you can also throw a speed work day in there, maybe on Wed.
Those 12 minute runs happen to my sister ;-) |
2011-07-09 9:47 AM in reply to: #3577818 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2011-07-12 4:45 PM in reply to: #3577818 |
Extreme Veteran 484 McHenry, IL | Subject: RE: Cross Training I'm training for Cascade Crest 100 right now, and have been having issues with pain in my left Achilles. After giving it some rest I've been able to resume some trail running, but still seeing some issues with the sore tendon. So, I've started replacing some of my running with time on a StepMill...that under-appreciated machine in many fitness centers that looks like a little escalator. I'm banking on this being an excellent replacement for running miles, particularly for a race like the one I'm preparing for which involves lots of climbing...also, particularly due to the fact that I have nothing remotely resembling a mountain anywhere near where I live, and my race is a mountain race. How well it will work out, I won't know until August 28th. But I can attest, I feel like I'm getting more benefit out of 90 minutes on that thing than I would from a 90 minute run. It's a butt-kicker of a machine that's worth a look if you're preparing for an ultra with thousands of feet of climbing. |
2011-07-13 1:59 AM in reply to: #3577818 |
Extreme Veteran 877 Pa | Subject: RE: Cross Training I've been thinking of adding the step mill into my schedule for a similar reason - lots of climbing in my next ultra with no real hills around :-) |
2011-07-16 7:14 AM in reply to: #3587922 |
Veteran 201 | Subject: RE: Cross Training trid - 2011-07-09 10:47 AM 6 days straight of running? already prone to injury it sounds like? booo. dislike on that. just my opinion. I think I now agree with you!! I tried it and actually felt pretty good after running 9 days straight, but it caught up with me! My 11 miler this morning became a 2 mile limp! Thankfully, I have my first ART appointment on Monday. Hopefully I can figure it all out! |
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2011-07-17 2:59 AM in reply to: #3577818 |
Extreme Veteran 877 Pa | Subject: RE: Cross Training Sorry to hear that. I hope you heal quickly. |
2011-07-17 5:10 PM in reply to: #3599304 |
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2011-08-02 12:19 PM in reply to: #3577818 |
Pro 3883 Woodstock,GA | Subject: RE: Cross Training I honestly think that any ultra athlete that doesn't cross train is losing a valuable component of their training. I have had a TON of sucess with my ultra athletes by incorporating swimming and cycling into their training. Swimming and cycling build aerobic fitness without the pounding of running and the risk of injury. |
2011-08-03 8:33 PM in reply to: #3625574 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2011-08-03 9:43 PM in reply to: #3577818 |
Pro 3883 Woodstock,GA | Subject: RE: Cross Training Nope that is exactly what I meant to write. Swimming and cycling have a much lower incidence of injury compared to running and especially compared to large volume runners. Aerobic fitness is aerobic fitness no matter how you build it. Contrary to popular opinion you don't have to run 100-125 miles a week to be good at ultra events. |
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2011-08-04 7:46 AM in reply to: #3577818 |
Champion 5312 Calgary | Subject: RE: Cross Training Rocket Man, not sure how you are defining aerobic fitness. It seems to me that the limiting factor in a tough trail ultra is not the type of aerobic fitness that you would train through 7 hour bike rides. The limiting factor is the stress you can put on your bones, and to a lesser extent, muscles over 15 or so ++++++++ hours. I think many people over estimate the value of cross training and then show up under prepared because they figure they can bike 210km at a stretch. I am not sure what the upper limit is of being able to train the run. I read the other day the elites are at about 15 hours of run training. I have run 15 hours in a week and it is manageable to me after a couple years of training. Unfortunatly I generally do not have that amount of time to devote to running. I wonder, are you suggesting that it would be more effective training to replace some of the time you can spend running with cross training? If so to what extent? I mean say a guy only has 10 hours a week to workout. I would say, 9.5 hours on running, .5 hours on some core work. Once a guy has more than 15 hours a week to work out I can see it being beneficial to add in some cross training. Otherwise it just seems inefficient to spend what little time we have to workout on less stressful activities. Regarding swimming, I think the thing about swimming is that it is somewhat therapeutic. However, it does build the upper body which is not an advantage in ultra racing. Anyways, I am not a coach, so I am looking forward to your reply. |
2011-08-04 7:53 PM in reply to: #3577818 |
Pro 3883 Woodstock,GA | Subject: RE: Cross Training It is definitely athlete dependant for sure. Depending on your time available to train you certainly have to proritize how you use your time. In your example an athlete with 10 hours to train should spend the bulk of that running. For those with more time to train (and those that might be injury prone) cross training is an effective way of building your aerobic fitness and saving your bones/joints/connective tissues. I coached the second place female at Badwater this year and our weekly training schedule looked like this (keep in mind she has 5 years of ultra experience and has many many miles already on her legs): Tuesday-Recovery bike 1-1.5 hours/yoga in the PM Wednesday-Masters swim (1.5 hrs)/12-18 mile run PM Thursday-Long Bike (up to 6 hours)/Yoga in the PM Friday-Masters Swim (1.5 hrs)/Short tempo or Aerobic Threshold run (6-8 miles) Saturday-Medium Bike (up to 4 hours) Sunday-Race Simulation run-I took the race and split it into different sections and we trained each section based on similar terrain in the North Georgia Mountains. Runs were 17-30 miles depending on the section Monday-Trail run 4-5 hours at an easy pace. All told she ran about 70-80 miles a week and supplimented with swimming and cycling. It seemed to work well as she was fresh (relatively speaking) at the end of the race and ran up to the Whitney Portal faster than anyone in the race (men included) and finished with the 10th best time in the history of the race. |
2011-08-05 10:31 PM in reply to: #3577818 |
Champion 5312 Calgary | Subject: RE: Cross Training Thanks for posting that. I think it is an awesome plan. Makes perfect sense. I imagine that is at peak, how many weeks did she manage to pound that out for? Congrats on the race. |
2011-08-06 5:40 PM in reply to: #3577818 |
Pro 3883 Woodstock,GA | Subject: RE: Cross Training We followed this plan for 11 weeks with a 2 week taper at the end. She has already done (and won) the Florida Double Ironman in March and had a solid race at IM Cozumel in November so we had a really solid base going into the Badwater training. |
2011-08-08 7:27 AM in reply to: #3577818 |
Veteran 201 | Subject: RE: Cross Training Thanks for all of the good info!! I think for me, right now, Ultra's are just a dream. I REALLY need to work on building my run base and overcoming my injuries. I am going to add more cross training into my schedule and back off the runs a little until I get in better shape. I'm still training to do my first Marathon this October...I just plan to finish no real time goal...just finish! I went to my first ART appointment the other day and the one thing the guy (who has been a distance runner for 30 years and is an ironman) told me was that on average it takes 3 years to become a distance runner. You can get there the easy way (by building your run base smartly) or the hard way (going too hard, too fast and getting hurt i.e. me), but either way...it'll still take 3 years! I'm only a year and a half into trying to become a runner and I have a LONG way to go!!! I think more cross training will help me get into better shape quicker (hopefully, lose more weight) and help me to become a better runner in the long run! |
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2011-08-08 7:34 AM in reply to: #3629737 |
6 | Subject: RE: Cross Training Rocket Man - 2011-08-04 8:53 PM Tuesday-Recovery bike 1-1.5 hours/yoga in the PM Wednesday-Masters swim (1.5 hrs)/12-18 mile run PM Thursday-Long Bike (up to 6 hours)/Yoga in the PM Friday-Masters Swim (1.5 hrs)/Short tempo or Aerobic Threshold run (6-8 miles) Saturday-Medium Bike (up to 4 hours) Sunday-Race Simulation run-I took the race and split it into different sections and we trained each section based on similar terrain in the North Georgia Mountains. Runs were 17-30 miles depending on the section Monday-Trail run 4-5 hours at an easy pace. All told she ran about 70-80 miles a week and supplimented with swimming and cycling. It seemed to work well as she was fresh (relatively speaking) at the end of the race and ran up to the Whitney Portal faster than anyone in the race (men included) and finished with the 10th best time in the history of the race.
Damn thats a sick schedule when its down on paper. |
2011-08-08 4:40 PM in reply to: #3633454 |
Champion 5312 Calgary | Subject: RE: Cross Training Ultraironjen1 - 2011-08-08 6:34 AM Rocket Man - 2011-08-04 8:53 PM Tuesday-Recovery bike 1-1.5 hours/yoga in the PM Wednesday-Masters swim (1.5 hrs)/12-18 mile run PM Thursday-Long Bike (up to 6 hours)/Yoga in the PM Friday-Masters Swim (1.5 hrs)/Short tempo or Aerobic Threshold run (6-8 miles) Saturday-Medium Bike (up to 4 hours) Sunday-Race Simulation run-I took the race and split it into different sections and we trained each section based on similar terrain in the North Georgia Mountains. Runs were 17-30 miles depending on the section Monday-Trail run 4-5 hours at an easy pace. All told she ran about 70-80 miles a week and supplimented with swimming and cycling. It seemed to work well as she was fresh (relatively speaking) at the end of the race and ran up to the Whitney Portal faster than anyone in the race (men included) and finished with the 10th best time in the history of the race.
Damn thats a sick schedule when its down on paper. I'm a not gonna lie, that is pretty beast. I keep looking at it and wondering if I could pull it off if I had nothing to do but train..., I mean I would need to quit my job and probably take up sleeping 10 hours a day. I think I could do it. Probably will have to wait for retirement to give it a try. So jealous. |
2011-08-08 8:20 PM in reply to: #3577818 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2011-08-11 3:26 PM in reply to: #3634708 |
6 | Subject: RE: Cross Training BigDH - 2011-08-08 5:40 PM Ultraironjen1 - 2011-08-08 6:34 AM I'm a not gonna lie, that is pretty beast. I keep looking at it and wondering if I could pull it off if I had nothing to do but train..., I mean I would need to quit my job and probably take up sleeping 10 hours a day. I think I could do it. Probably will have to wait for retirement to give it a try. So jealous. Rocket Man - 2011-08-04 8:53 PM Tuesday-Recovery bike 1-1.5 hours/yoga in the PM Wednesday-Masters swim (1.5 hrs)/12-18 mile run PM Thursday-Long Bike (up to 6 hours)/Yoga in the PM Friday-Masters Swim (1.5 hrs)/Short tempo or Aerobic Threshold run (6-8 miles) Saturday-Medium Bike (up to 4 hours) Sunday-Race Simulation run-I took the race and split it into different sections and we trained each section based on similar terrain in the North Georgia Mountains. Runs were 17-30 miles depending on the section Monday-Trail run 4-5 hours at an easy pace. All told she ran about 70-80 miles a week and supplimented with swimming and cycling. It seemed to work well as she was fresh (relatively speaking) at the end of the race and ran up to the Whitney Portal faster than anyone in the race (men included) and finished with the 10th best time in the history of the race.
Damn thats a sick schedule when its down on paper.
yeah, I slept a TON during all this and I am lucky enough to have a husband that spent every sunday for 2 months crewing me during the runs in the gaps |
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