W. and Wire Tapping

Actually, it's illegal for anyone  to authorize wiretaps on citizens without a court order, the POTUS included.

And since when is criticizing the President grounds for being kicked out of the country? When you criticized Clinton when he was POTUS (I'm assuming you did), should you have "moved to Canada"? 

And yes, If Clinton did as W admits to having done (without a court order), it would also be illegal. Do you have a source for where he did this? 

Wow. I don't even know where to start. Worried about my rights? Yes. Of course I am. Are you worried about your second amendment rights whenever the "damn demacrats" start talking Brady Bill? 

Well...he is spying on particular people. He admitted to spying on people with "known links to Al Queda." My point is, that's what he admitted to doing. What's he been doing that he hasn't he admitted to? 

When you start dipping into shady stuff, like he's admitted to doing...blatantly illegal wiretaps), you open yourself up to these questions. 

Now there's an idea!  Not only am I totally fed up with W, I'm pretty well fed up with most of our elected officials.  If its a representative government then why are many in our congress busy representing the minority on the fringes (far left and right, generally speaking)? 

Anyhow, to the subject of the thread - no, illegal/unauthorized wiretaps should not be accepted as a "cost of doing business" in the so-called War on Terror.  Yes, I'm worried about my rights.  Even though I do nothing illegal and have nothing to worry about, I still don't want anyone snooping in my private life.  That, I'm relatively certain, is the constitutional right of every citizen of this country.

There's this little matter of the USA being a nation of laws. It's part of our national mythology - we like to at least appear to pay lip service to this wild-eyed liberal idea.

We also like to tell ourselves that the President has limited powers. And the Congress has limited powers. And the Judiciary has limited powers. And that these three branches check and balance each other. So, when our King POTUS makes it obvious that he believes he has unlimited power, we like to do this little public hang-wringing so that we can maintain the pretense that our King POTUS is not a despot with unlimited power who runs rough-shod over the laws and rights of the citizens.

I love the fact that we all get our own opinion on this!  I truly believe that the our world is so complicated that the government must do things we don't need to know about in order to keep us safe!  If "The Man" thinks I am up to something and wants to keep an eye on me, I could care less.  If they keep an eye on someone and are able to prevent another 911 I am all for it.  I understand civil liberties and the importance of privacy, but I personally can look past that for the safety of myself and those close to me!

Ryan, there are legals means for our government to do this very thing.

Why they chose not to use the legal means available to them is the big mystery.

Exactly...I mean, why didn't he write it into the Patriot Act? If he had nothing to hide, why did he, uh, hide it? 

...To fight the war on terror, I am using authority vested in me by Congress, including the Joint Authorization for Use of Military Force, which passed overwhelmingly in the first week after September the 11th. I'm also using constitutional authority vested in me as Commander-in-Chief.

In the weeks following the terrorist attacks on our nation, I authorized the National Security Agency, consistent with U.S. law and the Constitution, to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations. Before we intercept these communications, the government must have information that establishes a clear link to these terrorist networks.

This is a highly classified program that is crucial to our national security. Its purpose is to detect and prevent terrorist attacks against the United States, our friends and allies. Yesterday the existence of this secret program was revealed in media reports, after being improperly provided to news organizations. As a result, our enemies have learned information they should not have, and the unauthorized disclosure of this effort damages our national security and puts our citizens at risk. Revealing classified information is illegal, alerts our enemies, and endangers our country...

...The NSA's activities under this authorization are thoroughly reviewed by the Justice Department and NSA's top legal officials, including NSA's general counsel and inspector general. Leaders in Congress have been briefed more than a dozen times on this authorization and the activities conducted under it."

It sounds by his speech that Congress did know. I am not one to agree on goverment spying on its people but I also understand that times have changed. I do believe that there are people out there that want to do harm to this country and extreme measures seem to be the norm during this time. Plus he does make it clear that it is done againest those with links to terrorist.  Not againest the ACLU , DNC or any others that are just againest the administration.  Now if it comes out that he is doing it againest his political enemies, then I would get my hackles up. If he wanted to spy on his opponents, all he would have to do would be to read this forum. )

He didn't need a new law. The current law (FISA) provided them with the authority and protections necessary, as long as they followed the provisions within that law. The Bush Administration chose not to follow the law, however.

They keep throwing out this red herring that time was off the essence. Well, how much time did they need to catch up to the law? It's been four years since 9/11/2001.

They have the tools necessary to do what they did in a legal manner. They chose to do it in an illegal manner. It's just stupid - and typical of an "I am the Law" Presidente.

The legal line of reasoning that our president is using is that the 2001 Use of Force Authorization bill empowered him to take "all necessary measures" against the perpetrators of the September 11, 2001 bombings.  He has expanded the "perpetrators" to include all whom he defines as enemies to his War on Terror.  "All necessary measures" has already been used to supercede early applicable laws such as the Foreign Surveillance Intelligence Act of 1978.  The FISA was  already a looser legal oversight on the FBI and CIA surveillance than the conventiona court system. 

Apparently, our president has declared himself a dictator as long as a state of war on terrorist exists and is trying to continue that state of war by his policies of expansion of the enemy.  His actions to date assure that we will have a generation of terrorists fighting to their last breaths against us.   And a generation after that.  So goes the slippery slope to an authoritarian police state.

TW

Yeah it does, but it's funny that AFAIK, no congressman has confirmed this. And further, Arlen Specter, the republican chair of the Judiciary Committee said he didn't know. You'd think if W. told anyone, it would be that guy.

1. If Congress knew, then they are complicit in this illegal activity. Saying "Congress knew" does not make it legal. It's still illegal. Congress should have been directing the Administration to use the law available to him and then there would be no smoking gun here! Nobody could cry "Foul play!"
2. Actually, the government is spying on Quakers, anti-war protesters and anti-military-recruiting-on-high-school-campuses people. The government is spying on American citizens who do not have ties to al Qaeda. Are your hackles up now?

This controversy is the POTUS' own making. He could have avoided this entire scandal by simply following the law. He could have done precisely what he did and still have followed the law. He chose not to. WHY?

I meant he could have written in Presidential authority to conduct wiretaps without judicial review into the Patriot Act, which would have for all intents and purposes thrown out the standing law requireing judicial review. But he didn't, most likely because he knew it wouldn't fly. So to get what he wanted, he just went ahead and did it without any authority.

What defies common sense is why he didn't just go ahead do it with authority available to him!!! Why create a tempest when you don't have to? It's just stupid. Or arrogance. Or both.

I agree, if there are leagal ways, go that route first, but there are a lot of things dealing with National Security that I don't need to know.  I think W has been an Idiot, but it is hard to blame him when the VP and others actually run the government, he is too stupid to be as evil as he appears!

Edit: I better be carefull, I might be put on a list of those to be tapped (we know Jim is!)