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GM Go Green; Ethanol?
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 2006-02-15 2:02 AM |
Master  1867     The real USC, in the ghetto of LA |  Subject: GM Go Green; Ethanol?Okay, I will admit, I may be a deep republican, but I drive a hybrid. For me the savings on gas would be better than a not having a hybrid. So with the new GM (and they are bankrupt) advertising. “Go green by going yellow.” Is the new ethanol movement REAL? I bought into hybrids before most people did, I remember explaining why I went with “new” technology. Is hybrid a small step, and ethanol is king? Is all of this just BS to hydrogen? I took a risk on hybrid, but then again I bought from the most reputable carmaker. Is this new tech. coming from a company known for poor life; a bad sign? Discuss… people thought I was crazy when I bought a hybrid (my joke was “I bought it so girls would dig me thinking im a nature guy. Then they find out im a republican”) Is this bad US advertising like Axe effect? Tell me what you think... |
| 2006-02-15 5:32 AM in reply to: #346160 |
Elite 2777 In my bunk with new shoes and purple sweats. | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? AY cheer up. Owning a hybrid is a good thing and helps to offset your political character flaw. Keep at it and some day I'm sure you'll actually be a role model for other republicans. lol, I'm just pulling your leg. The many benefits of higher oil prices include making alternative fuels such as ethanol and biodiesel more affordable. A nice goal would be to leave all foreign oil for the Chinese. We have enough domestic production to satisfy our military and air travel needs. How cool would it be if all land trans needs were met by agri based fuels? It's entirely possible and everytime the price of fuel goes up it becomes more viable. What a nice thought...OPEC vs the Chinese. What this country needs is more folks like you, driving hybrids and less folks like me driving SUV's. Congrats on the new car. Edited by gullahcracker 2006-02-15 5:42 AM |
| 2006-02-15 8:41 AM in reply to: #346179 |
| Elite 3650 Laurium, MI | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? i hate to say it, but E-85 and flex fuel is absolute crap. Without going into the mechanics involved, ethenol has very little power. Meaning it's cheaper, but gets horrible fuel economy. It's also only cheaper because of farm subsidies. So if we become dependant on corn based fuel one of two things will happen. Corn production will increase, and to keep the price low the government will have to pay out MORE in subsidies, or the demand will increase the price of the ethanol to rival that of petrol. Since it is more expensive to produce a gallon of ethanol vs a gallon of gasoline, without the subsidies, ethanol would cost MORE. We also currently don't have the ability to produce enough ethanol to remove our dependance on oil. Biodiesel made from soy is a better alternative and doesn't suffer the same short comings as ethanol, but production is still a huge issue.
personally my bet is still on refinment of waste organics. |
 2006-02-15 8:54 AM in reply to: #346160 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by oneword 2006-02-15 8:56 AM |
| 2006-02-15 8:58 AM in reply to: #346160 |
| Master 1315 Shreveport, LA | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? I must preface all that I am about to say with the fact that I design, monitor, troubleshoot, etc Oil Refineries. That said. Ethanol is used in fuels currently and there has been talk by the EPA to lower the amount of the lowering the total oxgenates (Ethanol, MTBE, etc) to a low level. According to a study by Cornell University the energy used to produce ethanol was ~30% than the energy it contained. Ethanol is just the newest fad alternative energy. It is a source of energy and can be blended to form different gasonlines, but it is not a long-term solution As has been discussed in many engineering journals, Hydrogen makes no sense, economically or scientifically. When you talk about disassociating the hydrogen from the oyxgen in water and then recombine the hydrogen with oxygen to produce energy there is a energy loss by the time you do that. It goes against the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. The main ways to reduce dependence on oil ar to drive more efficient (smaller) cars, drive hybrids, RIDE BIKES AND WALK/RUN PLACES, and have part of the population switch to diesel cars. The other way is to look at using renewable energy sources that make sense - nuclear and solar. Edited by mnewton 2006-02-15 9:01 AM |
| 2006-02-15 9:00 AM in reply to: #346160 |
| Elite 2863 | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? This IS an athlete forum right? No mention of Human power? F**K oil and all the BS cheap attempts to fix the problem. Get on your bike and ride!
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| 2006-02-15 9:06 AM in reply to: #346297 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2006-02-15 9:07 AM in reply to: #346300 |
| Master 1867 The real USC, in the ghetto of LA | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? oipolloi - 2006-02-15 9:00 AM This IS an athlete forum right? No mention of Human power? F**K oil and all the BS cheap attempts to fix the problem. Get on your bike and ride!
do you ever drive a car? |
| 2006-02-15 9:10 AM in reply to: #346310 |
| Elite 2863 | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? tyrant - 2006-02-15 9:07 AM oipolloi - 2006-02-15 9:00 AM do you ever drive a car? This IS an athlete forum right? No mention of Human power? F**K oil and all the BS cheap attempts to fix the problem. Get on your bike and ride!
Of course I do. I live in Nebraska. I put maybe 4000 miles a year on my 26MPG car. The rest is on bike.
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| 2006-02-15 9:11 AM in reply to: #346310 |
| Pro 3906 St Charles, IL | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? tyrant - 2006-02-15 8:07 AM oipolloi - 2006-02-15 9:00 AM do you ever drive a car? This IS an athlete forum right? No mention of Human power? F**K oil and all the BS cheap attempts to fix the problem. Get on your bike and ride!
No, he rides alpacas. Just like Chuck Norris. -C |
| 2006-02-15 9:13 AM in reply to: #346315 |
| Elite 2863 | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? coredump - 2006-02-15 9:11 AM tyrant - 2006-02-15 8:07 AM oipolloi - 2006-02-15 9:00 AM do you ever drive a car? This IS an athlete forum right? No mention of Human power? F**K oil and all the BS cheap attempts to fix the problem. Get on your bike and ride!
No, he rides alpacas. Just like Chuck Norris. -C I stopped riding the alpaca because of the Methane issue.
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| 2006-02-15 9:22 AM in reply to: #346160 |
| Pro 4040 | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? I'd like to add that the most realistic way to reduce our reliance on oil is with good public transportation. As motivation to the populace, gas prices should be put up around $7 - $8 per gallon regardless of the cost of oil. The difference between the real cost and the price charged should be taxes specifically set aside to fund the construction of bike lanes and light rail lines. Yeah, I know, we North Americans love our cars too much for this to happen, but I like to dream. |
| 2006-02-15 9:25 AM in reply to: #346314 |
| Master 1867 The real USC, in the ghetto of LA | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? oipolloi - 2006-02-15 9:10 AM tyrant - 2006-02-15 9:07 AM oipolloi - 2006-02-15 9:00 AM do you ever drive a car? This IS an athlete forum right? No mention of Human power? F**K oil and all the BS cheap attempts to fix the problem. Get on your bike and ride!
Of course I do. I live in Nebraska. I put maybe 4000 miles a year on my 26MPG car. The rest is on bike.
My point in posting was that most of us realistically meed a car of some type. I walk to school every day. i only drive to work (i would ride but im not sure if my skills are good enough to keep me from becoming a pancake in downtown LA.), and when i go to see my mom. i only put about 5000 miles on my car. i ride and walk to alot of places, BUT i still need my car; since LA has a crappy metro system. |
| 2006-02-15 9:27 AM in reply to: #346325 |
| Master 1867 The real USC, in the ghetto of LA | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? Opus - 2006-02-15 9:22 AM I'd like to add that the most realistic way to reduce our reliance on oil is with good public transportation. As motivation to the populace, gas prices should be put up around $7 - $8 per gallon regardless of the cost of oil. The difference between the real cost and the price charged should be taxes specifically set aside to fund the construction of bike lanes and light rail lines. Yeah, I know, we North Americans love our cars too much for this to happen, but I like to dream. i personally feel that the MPG rating of your car should effect the tax rate on gas. The higher your rated MPG the lower your gas tax. here in California if your car is rated at 40 and abouve you can drive in the car pool lanes (with special tags) by yourself. VERY handy. Edited by tyrant 2006-02-15 9:29 AM |
| 2006-02-15 9:28 AM in reply to: #346309 |
| Master 1315 Shreveport, LA | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? oneword - 2006-02-15 9:06 AM The ironic thing about pushing hydrogen at this time... typically, they crack NATURAL GAS to extract it, and even more ironic, they add hydrogen when they refine crude oil into gasoline to boost its energy content. So we're already 'in the hydrogen economy'. Boosting the efficiency of solar cells, investing in thermonuclear fusion - which WILL solve our energy problems, we just have to have working tokomacs - and real longer run, using small amounts of antimatter to generate power will do a lot to free us from fossil fuels permanently. I think you and I are on the same page for alternative energy sources, but I wanted to clear up about what the use of Hydrogen in most refineries. Hydrogen is used mainly to hydrotreat oil streams. What happens is the hydrogen combines with sulfur and nitrogen in the oil streams to produce H2S and Ammonia, respectively. This is the cleaning up of the streams. The hydrogen normally come from 1 of 2 places. The most economical source is from the oil itself. There units called catalytic reformers, which takes part of the gasoline pool and changes the structure of the oil. The hydrogen comes from when Paraffins and CycloParaffins are reformed into Aromatics. So if you had cyclohexane (C6H12) and reformed it into benzene (C6H6) you get a higher octane gasoline and the 6 hydrogens are sent to other units to be used in the hydrotreating process. You usually lose about 10-20% of the liquid volume that you came in with when you do this proces, but you gain the octane and the hydrogen. The other place is what you talked about cracking natural gas. These plants usually produce 99-99.9% pure H2 while the reforming process produces 80-90% H2. Other sources of octane come from Isormerization and Alkylation. Diesel is heavily hydrotreated, but normally requires not further process. You probably don't care, but that is the basics of a refinery. |
| 2006-02-15 9:49 AM in reply to: #346332 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2006-02-15 12:04 PM in reply to: #346160 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? If you drive off without your gas cap in an ethanol-powered car, do you violate open container laws? |
| 2006-02-15 12:12 PM in reply to: #346160 |
| Elite 2458 Livingston, MT | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? --- Begin Sarcasm --- Why are we discussing this? I thought we won the war and gas prices would come down? --- End Sarcasm --- --- Begin Nerd Talk --- Matter/Anti Matter - Start Trek style. We all just need a warp core with dilithiam crystals. Everyone knows this. --- End Nerd Talk --- --- Begin Apology --- Sorry, I'm having to much fun pushing the "-" button and entertaining myself. --- End Apology --- |
| 2006-02-15 12:12 PM in reply to: #346160 |
| Master 4101 Denver | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? What if we powered the hydrogen-producing plants with clean energy - solar, nuclear, coal gasification...? |
| 2006-02-15 12:22 PM in reply to: #346477 |
| Master 1867 The real USC, in the ghetto of LA | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? drewb8 - 2006-02-15 12:12 PM What if we powered the hydrogen-producing plants with clean energy - solar, nuclear, coal gasification...? coal, clean? one of the main problems with H is that the amount of energy you use to split the water is more than what you get out of H. it would be better to not waste the energy that way. i was reading that there is a new nuclear power plant (used in the most generic form, so you can correct me with the nerd talk, ans my spelling too) that a byproduct is splitting water, free H. |
| 2006-02-15 12:26 PM in reply to: #346477 |
| Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? One of the arguments against nuke power is you have to put the plants in the population centers, because you lose much of the energy you create if you have to transmit it for great distances. So if you used nuke power to power H2 plants, you could put them in remote areas. I like it. drewb8 - 2006-02-15 1:12 PM What if we powered the hydrogen-producing plants with clean energy - solar, nuclear, coal gasification...? |
| 2006-02-15 12:28 PM in reply to: #346484 |
| Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? tyrant - 2006-02-15 1:22 PM coal, clean? Coal gassification is pretty clean. Read about it here: http://www.clean-energy.us/ |
| 2006-02-15 12:31 PM in reply to: #346489 |
| Master 1867 The real USC, in the ghetto of LA | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? run4yrlif - 2006-02-15 12:28 PM tyrant - 2006-02-15 1:22 PM coal, clean? Coal gassification is pretty clean. Read about it here: http://www.clean-energy.us/ i learned something new. (and it didnt cost me 1000 a unit) we should just throw jack bauer on a stationary bike! when it comes to reactor saftey, the chinese have developed a reactor that is essentially melt-down proof. |
| 2006-02-15 12:38 PM in reply to: #346476 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2006-02-15 12:39 PM in reply to: #346496 |
| Elite 3650 Laurium, MI | Subject: RE: GM Go Green; Ethanol? actually....we have one too. Some university (Berkley?) designed it. Basicly instead of feeding it fuel rods, you slowly feed it fuel balls. If it starts to get out of hand, you just stop feeding it. There are no rods to get stuck and nothing really to melt down. If you read the scientific journals though, there have been some pretty good advances with managable fusion. They just aren't being pushed to the mass media for fear of the cold fusion sham a while ago. |
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