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Deep section wheels - needed?
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 2017-07-03 9:06 PM |
 93 |  Subject: Deep section wheels - needed?I have a Giant TCR 1 road bike. It's a very basic bike (aluminum frame), but with aero bars and an Adamo saddle, I've been just fine with my triathlon progress. I've been told by many, however, that the stock wheels I have are basically garbage. I was considering an upgrade, but at around $1,000 for a good set of deep section wheels (not too deep because I still like the hills), I really wonder if it would be better to buy the many things I've been wanting to buy- a new kit, a new helmet, new running shoes, maybe even a Garmin. So much question is, how happy would I be with a decent set of deep section wheels? Or, how much of a performance boost would I see? I compete in mostly sprint triathlons, but I also sometimes do relays in the Olympic distance (I'm usually the swimmer or cyclist or both). I really like mountains but I would say I spend 80% of my time on flats preparing for races. I often cycle a little under 50k on flats to prepare for my races. |
| 2017-07-04 7:03 AM in reply to: Trilogy |
Expert 2373   Floriduh | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? A nice set of racing wheels will bring you some speed, but as a dollar-for-speed investment you are better with an aero helmet and proper kit. Question is, what are the wheels you are using? If they are box-type rims, you could buy a far more aero set of alloys for a pretty reasonable price vs carbons. |
| 2017-07-04 9:38 AM in reply to: #5223623 |
| 271 | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? +1 on buying an aero helmet!! I would also consider buying some cheaper wheels like mavic cosmic or something similar. Then you could also get a good training watch or computer all for under $1000 |
| 2017-07-04 8:11 PM in reply to: Oysterboy |
| 93 | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? Originally posted by Oysterboy A nice set of racing wheels will bring you some speed, but as a dollar-for-speed investment you are better with an aero helmet and proper kit. Question is, what are the wheels you are using? If they are box-type rims, you could buy a far more aero set of alloys for a pretty reasonable price vs carbons. I'm using the stock Giant SR-2 wheels. Again, everyone is telling me they're horrible. I would consider an aero helmet if it's not too over-the-top. I think some of those look a bit ridiculous, to be honest. |
| 2017-07-04 8:17 PM in reply to: ARtridad74 |
| 93 | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? Originally posted by ARtridad74 +1 on buying an aero helmet!! I would also consider buying some cheaper wheels like mavic cosmic or something similar. Then you could also get a good training watch or computer all for under $1000 I was actually looking at the Mavic Cosmic which a friend swears by as a great wheel with "aluminum break rims with a carbon dish." A new pair is around $1000 and I found a used set for about $600. Am I paying a premium here in Taiwan? It wouldn't be uncommon, but that kind of sucks if that's the case. I had another friend confirm that price range here in Taiwan. And for a good Garmin watch for triathlons, the price range is about $500. My friend works for Garmin and they are a joint venture (partly owned here in Taiwan if my understanding is correct), and so I think that's about the right price (no premium, I mean). |
| 2017-07-05 8:24 AM in reply to: Oysterboy |
1502  Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? If we're really talking about the most speed gains for your buck (or time investment), then I'd say work on bike position. By far, the most wind resistance comes from you, not your wheels, or helmet or even clothes. 95% or more of people I see on tri-bikes have comically bad positions. I have to laugh when I see someone with a $10,000+ bike all tricked out with the newest highest end wheels, and di2 and all the rest; then their elbow pads are an inch higher than their seat. If you're on your bike and in the same position you would be casually resting your elbows at the local neighborhood bar, then a fit is your best bet. Not saying this is true of the OP, but it is true of the majority of triathletes that I see. Second thing is that (much like position) if you're not in your aero-bars, then the greatest wheels in the world won't do you much good. I see a heck of a lot of people on super-aero (and super-expensive) bikes, upright out of the aero bars within a mile of coming out of transition. Again, not saying this is the OP's issue, but just in general; in my opinion, folks should work on getting a really good and aggressive aero position that can be maintained (this comes as much from practice as it does from fit and flexibility) THEN work on all the aero accessories. |
| 2017-07-05 5:48 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? 3mar is right #1 rtight jersey, aero road helmet, non aggressive position #2 skinsuit and aero helmet saves 7wattts (at 20mph) #3 but sitting up loses 22watts over #2 At higher speed, more watts would be even more PS : more aggressive position = more watts saved but it's not as big as you think Edited by marcag 2017-07-05 6:02 PM (13.0 Left Side.jpg) (1.0 Left Side.jpg) (6.0 Left Side.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 13.0 Left Side.jpg (31KB - 17 downloads) 1.0 Left Side.jpg (29KB - 16 downloads) 6.0 Left Side.jpg (29KB - 18 downloads) |
| 2017-07-05 6:01 PM in reply to: marcag |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? #3 is closer to what a lot of people look like while in their aero bars..... |
| 2017-07-05 9:12 PM in reply to: Trilogy |
| 1055 | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? I've raced many seasons now and never felt the need to spend a ton of money on a wheel set. I've been running the same Zipp 101 aluminum rims for quite a while now. Heavy but completely bomb proof. Unless you are already at the pointy end of the field, what's the point, it's a minimal gain. |
| 2017-07-05 10:07 PM in reply to: ziggie204 |
| 93 | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? I'm enjoying this discussion and I will definitely work on improving my position in the aero bars. My seat is definitely higher than my elbow rests and I seem to be rocked forward and not sitting back, there's probably more I can do. As far as the aero helmet, that may need to wait because I think I've decided on a wheel set- the Token C55A. I guess they're not too fancy. Sturdy. 55mm depth so not too overboard. Here are the kind of reviews I'm finding: If you are looking for a new set of aero wheels, specifically for competition purposes, then you might want to take a look at the Token C55A. This is because it boasts some impressive specs that can really help you up your game. Now reading off the page, you might be a little surprised to see the weight of the wheelset. This is definitely one of the heavier options to choose from so it is easy to be a little put off. Once I had them settled in and took off, however, I found that it was little to worry about. These really took off beautifully and I had no issues gaining speed. This extra weight actually becomes quite the advantage in certain situations. This is mainly in bad weather and crosswinds. This is because instead of swerving all over, you are kept on the straight and narrow. The shape of the rims also go a long way towards making sure that you ride well even in the winds. Speaking of bad weather, one thing I noticed was the excellent braking capabilities of the wheelset, even when the ground was wet. This is done with the help of the alloy surface which makes for better braking than the carbon. I also found that I was in for quite a comfortable ride as well! Due to this I found that I could ride for longer periods of time and not suffer as a result. All in all, there are nothing but good things to say about the C55A. Originally posted by ziggie204 I've raced many seasons now and never felt the need to spend a ton of money on a wheel set. I've been running the same Zipp 101 aluminum rims for quite a while now. Heavy but completely bomb proof. Unless you are already at the pointy end of the field, what's the point, it's a minimal gain. I seem to do okay in the races for my age group. I'm usually right up there toward the front, again for my age group. In all fairness, though, the real badass guys seem to do the Olympic distance (here where I race, they usually have a sprint and an Olympic tri on the same day or on two consecutive days, and I usually stick to the sprint tris). More than anything, I know I bought a very basic bike and rather than upgrading to a completely new one, I want to replace what is probably the weakest part of the bike. I might gain 30 seconds over the 20k course in a sprint tri (?), which is not much and I realize that. But hopefully with a better wheel set, I feel good about the bike, and hopefully I'll be bit better on the mountains and on flat courses. |
| 2017-07-06 8:43 AM in reply to: Trilogy |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? Most everything in there is marketing hype. Hope you enjoy the wheels though. |
| 2017-07-06 10:39 AM in reply to: Trilogy |
| 216 | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? Wow, those are narrow @ 14 mm internal, 19 external. Even a 23c tire is gonna be "lightbulbed" on those. The tire/wheel interface is at least as important as the rim shape itself. Pinching a tire too much at the bead creates more low yaw drag, and causes the wheel to "stall" at lower yaw angles, almost completely defeating the purpose of the deep profile. These might have been great with 19/20c tires, but with the current crop of high performance road and TT-style tires being in the 23-25c range, the narrow width is a big compromise. I bet a set of ~30mm deep alloys with an 17 or 18mm internal width and 21-23 mm external width would be more aero with any currently popular tire on it. Outside of a narrow band of yaw angles, a set of DT Swiss R32 Spline's with a wheel cover on the back is spotting only 2-3 watts @ 23mph to a set of high end, deep profile carbon rims, and costs considerably, CONSIDERABLY, less. https://www.bike24.com/p2140136.html |
| 2017-07-06 10:41 AM in reply to: Trilogy |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? put a nice set of deep wheels on your bike for $2k and you might gain 1 to 2 minutes- maybe. Put the money into other stuff. FYI you can gain a lot with the right tires and tire pressure on your bike- just as much gain or more than the wheelset for just a couple $$$ |
| 2017-07-06 10:59 AM in reply to: Trilogy |
| 1520 Cypress, Texas | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? Originally posted by Trilogy I have a Giant TCR 1 road bike. It's a very basic bike (aluminum frame), but with aero bars and an Adamo saddle, I've been just fine with my triathlon progress. I've been told by many, however, that the stock wheels I have are basically garbage. I was considering an upgrade, but at around $1,000 for a good set of deep section wheels (not too deep because I still like the hills), I really wonder if it would be better to buy the many things I've been wanting to buy- a new kit, a new helmet, new running shoes, maybe even a Garmin. So much question is, how happy would I be with a decent set of deep section wheels? Or, how much of a performance boost would I see? I compete in mostly sprint triathlons, but I also sometimes do relays in the Olympic distance (I'm usually the swimmer or cyclist or both). I really like mountains but I would say I spend 80% of my time on flats preparing for races. I often cycle a little under 50k on flats to prepare for my races. I got the Continental Grand Prix tires and Latex tubes first. Then I got the race kit and used Vintage TT helmet. I spent a total of about $100 for the tubes and tires and then another $100 for the race kit and the vintage TT helmet. I had been shopping around for race wheels for for about two years and knew what my dream wheels where but couldn't get behind paying $2,500 for them. When I found a guy semi-local who was selling the wheels I wanted for for $1,000 I made an impulse buy and got them. My wife about died from sticker shock. I think I a got about a 5% speed increase with the tires and tubes. I got about a 5% increase from the kit and helmet, and I got about a 5% increase from the race wheels. So the wheels were 10 times more for what I got out of them but if you are looking for an edge they will give it to you. If you have the disposable cash to do all the up-grades at once go for it. If not pick and choose what you can afford when. Note: if your wheels are really slow now you may see a bigger increase than I did. I only use the race wheels for races. I have my original wheels that I still use for training rides. |
| 2017-07-06 7:44 PM in reply to: gary p |
| 93 | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? Originally posted by gary p Wow, those are narrow @ 14 mm internal, 19 external. Even a 23c tire is gonna be "lightbulbed" on those. The tire/wheel interface is at least as important as the rim shape itself. Pinching a tire too much at the bead creates more low yaw drag, and causes the wheel to "stall" at lower yaw angles, almost completely defeating the purpose of the deep profile. These might have been great with 19/20c tires, but with the current crop of high performance road and TT-style tires being in the 23-25c range, the narrow width is a big compromise. I bet a set of ~30mm deep alloys with an 17 or 18mm internal width and 21-23 mm external width would be more aero with any currently popular tire on it. Outside of a narrow band of yaw angles, a set of DT Swiss R32 Spline's with a wheel cover on the back is spotting only 2-3 watts @ 23mph to a set of high end, deep profile carbon rims, and costs considerably, CONSIDERABLY, less. https://www.bike24.com/p2140136.html I can speak three languages and I'm very proud of that. This is one I haven't learned yet! Luckily I have friends who can translate. Thanks for your input. |
| 2017-07-06 7:48 PM in reply to: mike761 |
| 93 | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? Originally posted by mike761 put a nice set of deep wheels on your bike for $2k and you might gain 1 to 2 minutes- maybe. Put the money into other stuff. FYI you can gain a lot with the right tires and tire pressure on your bike- just as much gain or more than the wheelset for just a couple $$$ I'm so confused now! Every time I think I've decided on a purchase I hear something that makes me pause. |
| 2017-07-06 7:53 PM in reply to: BlueBoy26 |
| 93 | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? Originally posted by BlueBoy26 When I found a guy semi-local who was selling the wheels I wanted for for $1,000 I made an impulse buy and got them. My wife about died from sticker shock. Note: if your wheels are really slow now you may see a bigger increase than I did. I only use the race wheels for races. I have my original wheels that I still use for training rides. I think my wife will get a little bit of that sticker shock, especially considering I bought my bike new for around $900. Regarding my wheels now, a good number of people have told me they're just horrible and slow. A friend put things in terms I could understand- telling me that they were like Bud Light in the beer world (and I always upgrade to something like Hobgoblin Gold). |
| 2017-07-06 9:20 PM in reply to: Trilogy |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? Originally posted by Trilogy Originally posted by BlueBoy26 When I found a guy semi-local who was selling the wheels I wanted for for $1,000 I made an impulse buy and got them. My wife about died from sticker shock. Note: if your wheels are really slow now you may see a bigger increase than I did. I only use the race wheels for races. I have my original wheels that I still use for training rides. I think my wife will get a little bit of that sticker shock, especially considering I bought my bike new for around $900. Regarding my wheels now, a good number of people have told me they're just horrible and slow. A friend put things in terms I could understand- telling me that they were like Bud Light in the beer world (and I always upgrade to something like Hobgoblin Gold). That comparison is another marketing type statement that's coming from a limited view of the situation. It may be true when limited to just wheels, but wheels aren't you're only option. A number of other options have been given already. Most all of them have the potential, and even likelihood, of giving the same (or more) amount of gains as the wheels do. The same money could also be used to purchase many of them at once too. |
| 2017-07-06 9:42 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
| 93 | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? Originally posted by brigby1 That comparison is another marketing type statement that's coming from a limited view of the situation. It may be true when limited to just wheels, but wheels aren't you're only option. A number of other options have been given already. Most all of them have the potential, and even likelihood, of giving the same (or more) amount of gains as the wheels do. The same money could also be used to purchase many of them at once too. I haven't made a purchase and I really could go either way (wheels or all the cool stuff I could buy instead). There does seem to be one flaw in the advice I've been so far though. Isn't a skinsuit not really an option? I guess I could go for a tri suit with partial sleeves, but that's not really a skinsuit, is it? Also, I really like the separate top and shorts for easy bathroom breaks before a race (and I take a few). |
| 2017-07-07 6:27 AM in reply to: Trilogy |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? Originally posted by Trilogy Originally posted by brigby1 That comparison is another marketing type statement that's coming from a limited view of the situation. It may be true when limited to just wheels, but wheels aren't you're only option. A number of other options have been given already. Most all of them have the potential, and even likelihood, of giving the same (or more) amount of gains as the wheels do. The same money could also be used to purchase many of them at once too. I haven't made a purchase and I really could go either way (wheels or all the cool stuff I could buy instead). There does seem to be one flaw in the advice I've been so far though. Isn't a skinsuit not really an option? I guess I could go for a tri suit with partial sleeves, but that's not really a skinsuit, is it? Also, I really like the separate top and shorts for easy bathroom breaks before a race (and I take a few). Terminology like that can get all jumbled up fairly easily as all of these are quite form fitting or skin tight. I think the true skinsuit tends to refer more to one used specifially in a stand alone time trial, and would be a poor choice as these should be difficult to get on and not really cut for swimming. The skin tight part is what to take away though. Watch for wrinkles around the shoulders and other areas. Also for loose fitting areas, I had some trouble with legs getting too tight vs chest/abdominal area sagging off a little. The short sleeved suits are what's usually meant for triathlon, and they would mean tri specific ones in order to swim in them. Some still don't like the shoulders, but roll the top down under the wetsuit or swimskin. Then put it on for T1. In being fair with information, it can take a little work in searching around for one that fits well. I have known some where the wheels were worth it because they ended up being motivated to ride more often and ride harder, both things conducive towards becoming a better athlete. So do get it with that. After seeing some sizing info posted earlier, would hesitate with those particular ones though. |
| 2017-07-07 10:07 AM in reply to: Trilogy |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? A parachute isn't absolutely necessary for you to have while skydiving..........but, it's a good idea  That's a joke. You don't NEED wheels any more than you NEED a tri bike (v. a roadie). FWIW, I spent $675 on my used (front) and new rear FLO 60/90's. I leave 'em on my bike all the time....and switch them back and forth from my road bike to the tri bike. Do I NEED them? If I want to go faster than I do with the training wheels......I do. If you can afford them, who cares what anyone else thinks? Good luck with your decision. |
| 2017-07-07 12:59 PM in reply to: Trilogy |
Master 3888 Overland Park, KS | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? Basically the deep wheels will get you something along these lines in time savings, over stock wheels: 24.8 miles / 40 km (Olympic): 50-70 seconds 56 miles / 90 km (HIM): 2 to 2.5 minutes 112 miles / 180 km (IM): 4 to 5 minutes I finally raced my first full last October and it took me nearly 12 hours to complete so those 4 to 5 minutes don't mean much. Sure, I might lose out on an Age Group podium spot by under 1 minute at a local Olympic distance that can be attributed to wheel selection but I figure I'll lose out on prize money worth TENS of dollars due to my savings of hundreds of dollars by not buying expensive wheels. They do look cool so if you like to look cool that could be a reason to get some. But I think it's cooler when I pass bikes with them on my stock wheels  Agree with others, aero helmet, position etc. will get a great time savings/cost benefit. |
| 2017-07-07 1:06 PM in reply to: Trilogy |
| 216 | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? Originally posted by Trilogy I can speak three languages and I'm very proud of that. This is one I haven't learned yet! Luckily I have friends who can translate. Thanks for your input. Upper right corner, you can change language and Country. Price drops considerably if shipping outside the EU since they can take off the Value Added Tax which is built into the "regular" price. . |
| 2017-07-07 1:26 PM in reply to: reecealan |
Expert 2852 Pfafftown, NC | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? Originally posted by reecealan Basically the deep wheels will get you something along these lines in time savings, over stock wheels: 24.8 miles / 40 km (Olympic): 50-70 seconds 56 miles / 90 km (HIM): 2 to 2.5 minutes 112 miles / 180 km (IM): 4 to 5 minutes I finally raced my first full last October and it took me nearly 12 hours to complete so those 4 to 5 minutes don't mean much. Sure, I might lose out on an Age Group podium spot by under 1 minute at a local Olympic distance that can be attributed to wheel selection but I figure I'll lose out on prize money worth TENS of dollars due to my savings of hundreds of dollars by not buying expensive wheels. They do look cool so if you like to look cool that could be a reason to get some. But I think it's cooler when I pass bikes with them on my stock wheels Agree with others, aero helmet, position etc. will get a great time savings/cost benefit. You'd pass them even faster .........if.......well, you know |
| 2017-07-07 1:29 PM in reply to: Trilogy |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL Gold member | Subject: RE: Deep section wheels - needed? Originally posted by Trilogy As far as the aero helmet, that may need to wait because I think I've decided on a wheel set- the Token C55A. I guess they're not too fancy. Sturdy. 55mm depth so not too overboard. Here are the kind of reviews I'm finding: If you are looking for a new set of aero wheels, specifically for competition purposes, then you might want to take a look at the Token C55A. This is because it boasts some impressive specs that can really help you up your game. I read the wheel spec's and had a flashback to 2005! Those are old school, you'd be better off with a modern wider shallower rim like FLO 30 or the one posted above. From what I recall, those V type wheels at higher yaw angles catch the wind a lot more and make for a much more squirrely ride compared to modern designs that are designed with wider (23c) tires in mind from the start. |
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