Cav's Group - Closed (Page 11)

Thanks for the info Eric. I missed the pool this morning, but I may go at lunch time and try some of these, plus "water polo swimming" from the thread I posted before.



Exactly this. I want that feeling to continue all way, but it vanishes after half a length of the pool I am not sure why, I may be losing my form or maybe my body just remembers how it was to use open hands while swimming.

I still have difficulty understanding, once I really do the early vertical forearm, how my body will "glide" or "dolphin" past it. So I did some more searching and found this article from ST. In fact, it does not say anything too far from what you told. After some experimentation at the pool, I will surely have new questions.

I have a running related question. Sometimes (read this week) I have difficulty finding the time to do my long run. What if I do a shorter run? What does your plans call for as your weekly long run? Currently I am trying to do 3 or 4 short runs weekly, each 7-8 km and one long slow run with a time of 90 minutes, which corresponds to a distance of 16-17 km.

From what I have read a short run is better than no run, so if you don't have time a short run will do.

Thanks for the answer Stavros. I am sure a short one is better than none. I think I did not phrase my question well enough. So, let me rephrase:

Do your plan have a weekly long slow run? If so, what is its' distance/time? Is there a rule of thumb to determine the long run distance/time?

There, now I have it right.

Ding-dong! Back from the pool and reporting:

I tried fist drill, dog paddling, water-polo swimming and just concentrating on the pull. Dog paddling was the one I "felt" high elbow pulling most. Both dog paddling and water-polo swimming felt very strange. I think I got the hang of it, though I have to keep doing drills. I felt both my lats and shoulders (deltoids), I hope I am doing it right. What is your take on this Eric?

There is a guy at the pool, who swims 7 days a week, year round. I see him whenever I go there at lunch time and whenever I go to the pool at weekends. He is good, swims seemingly effortlessly and faster than me. Today, after my drills, I decided to a 2x400 m (had only time for that). During second interval I swam at the same pace with him for 200 meters, but after that my technique started to fall apart (at least that is how I felt) and sure enough by the end of 400 m he was 25-30 m ahead of me. I always use him as a benchmark since he always swims at the same pace.

Again from what others have said elsewhere, the long run should not be more than half the total distance that you run for that week (most people seem to prefer to set a distance rather than a time).

Personally, I'm using the 3x balanced sprint plan from this site and it has 1 short, 1 medium and 1 long distance run each week where the medium run is about 33% longer than the short and the long run is another 33% longer.

Note for those that don't understand my bad description of the 'over the barrel' drill, the fist drill is great and easy. The fist-swim drill is probably the best way for beginners and intermediates (like me) to improve at swimming with our forearms, and especially focusing on pushing while my forearms are vertical (facing the back of the pool).





I probably didn't explain it well. My body doesn't dolphin past it. Basically it involves this:
1. Enter hand and extend.
2. Allow hand to drop until EVF is reached, without any pull. This is done trying to minimize pressure against the water, try to do it so my hand/arm are like a dolphin with zero resistance. So, not so my body is like a dolphin, but my arm/hand in the sense that they "effortlessly" drip into the EVF position.
3. Pull this happens.

I find when I wait to pull until I hit EVF, I get a much better lat pull, a lot less strain on my shoulders.

I call this the "over the barrel" drill because it's like when my arm is falling into the EVF position it's like reaching over a barrel. It sounds silly but if you do it you will probably see what I mean.

Also I really like this description from the site RogerWilco linked to:


That's exactly what I'm trying to reproduce. Reach over the barrel with zero resistance from my arm, and only then push against it. Perfect description RogerWilco!

When you do this, you will feel like you are cheating, because it is so much less energy used by your small weak shoulder muscles (relative to your lats). Plus, you will probably be like, "This is lazy, I usually am pulling this whole time but with this technique I'm not really pulling at all until my hand is about 1/5 of the way to exiting the water!" That's exactly right! That's one of the toughest things for beginners to learn: they should not be exerting pressure against the water for the entire stroke.

If you push down, you are creating drag. Your force should be back, not down. Hence the EVF.

Note I've read a lot about this, but I'm not all that great at it. That's why I need to do these drills!!! I'm excited by this new "over the barrel" drill, but the fist drill is very good too.

(For that matter, my favorite overall drill, by far, the one that makes me feel like aquaman when I finish, is the one-arm swim drill: keep one arm in front, and swim three strokes with the other arm, then switch to the other arm for three strokes. Do this for 25 or 50 yards, then do full-swim for 25-50 yards you will be amazed. This helps with every aspect of the stroke it's like the God Drill for me.)

Edited by neuronet 2010-02-05 10:29 AM

Holy crap! That must be frustrating.

Listen, my last tri I was plugging along with the freestyle, and this bastard passed me doing the breast stroke!

It is a little frustrating, but the shoulder problem has been with me a long time, in a roundabout way its what brought me to triathlon. My life long passion has been martial arts, but a combination of old age(!), not finding a club I like after moving south and injuries made me look for a new challenge,here I am.
   In my mind I have a few goals, a couple of sprints and move up and do at least one Oly with an open water swim. With me not chasing  times I don`t think breaststroke will be too much of a handicap.

Eric, we are surely on the same boat. I, too keep reading and trying though I am far from good. Even the drills we use are the same: one-arm, fist, over the barrel. I also do some catch-ups and side-balance drills.

I will keep sharing my experience, it may help you or others in the group. Next time, I will try just dripping my hand down till it makes an angle of 90 degrees with my elbow and then pull afterward.

Thanks for all explanations.

Thanks for the info Stavros. Thankfully, this morning I found the time to do my long run. But I will keep this rule of thumb in my mind.

You are certainly braver than me Chris. Is biking OK with you?

Any word from our fearless leader?

So, we (5 adults and 6 kids 9 and under) went sledding- lots of fun!  Of course, we had to go back up the hill...of about 25 times back up, I jogged/ran 15 (at least 30-35 yards a pop) the ones I walked usually had a kid in tow (or carried).  Does this count as a work out on the training log ?  it was a boat load of fun!!  I tried surfing down a few times and didn't crack my knee open like last year (made it all the way down 3 of the 5 or 6 I tried).  Also, I completely shaved my head last night!!  I like it!  I think I'll be doing regularly when it's warmer...click the link to see (if you go through the couple before, you'll see the before, middle and end)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31043867&l=b8d18ff615&id=1288929955


Edited by ferretracer 2010-02-06 3:44 PM

So, I've been re reading all the info on swimming technique above.  It seems that we're really not supposed to pull with our hand/arm until it is lower in the water as it will cause us to work against ourselves-does that sound like I have it?  The info has been great!  I am definitely going to try the Fist Swimming and also try to keep the OTB technique on my mind as I swim this Thursday.  I need to get out for 2 runs this week as well- it's been over a week since I was last out!  My bike is crying for me as well...but with 12 inches of snow on the ground and more on the way in a couple days, that may be a while longer (I passed some drifts that were about 10 feel along the road last night!).

I haven't heard from Cav as well- I hope all is well with him!

Great talk about swimming!  Don't get frustrated with swimming; it takes a long time (years) to get good.  Swimming is all about technique and form.  You can't muscle your way through it. 

I attempted my LT test yesterday, but it didn't go well.  Full details are in my log.  I'll try again next month with hopefully better results. 

I'm having a tough time fitting in my training, so that has be a bit down.  Winter is difficult with the short days, piles of snow and extra work regarding the barn chores.  I'm so ready for spring when life gets a bit easier.  Sigh.  Now off to plan out the week. 

Pattie, I read about the details from your log. I know that you are a seasoned triathlete, so why cannot you use your previous race or training HR data? Your LT values should be very close to your last year's data. At least, it is what I do.

By the way, thanks for the inspire. I hate training inside, so I go out for biking and running regardless of weather, though when there is snow on the roads I do not bike out, it is too dangerous. The winter has settled in here after the second half of January, but it think it is warmer than your area. Out winter temps are between +5 and -10 degrees Celsius.

This week calls for 11 hours of training for me. I met and overdid the 10 hours of last week. Let's see if I can do it this week.

Another swimming report from Saturday:
At last I broke 2:00 / 100 m pace. For the first time. I made some drills again and did 3 sets of 200 m back-to-back with 25 seconds rest between them (I did not have time to do more since a challenging 1-on-1 basketball match with my 8 year old son was waiting for me ). And yes! The times were 3:46, 3:48, 3:47

For the first one, I thought it is just that I am fresh, but the second and third one was same even though I felt tired at the third one. All that experimenting and drills seemed to work at last, but they also made my lats and deltoids tired. I'll try again tomorrow and see if that results were just an accident ( praying that it was not )

I want to share my homemade drill about pulling. After fiddling with what I read from elsewhere and from what Eric wrote in this thread, the best drill for me to get "the feel of water" was dog paddling with no kicking. Fist drills or OTB drills with no kicking was also good. I found out that when I stopped kicking I could concentrate on my stroke better. Yes, of course the legs sink somewhat but not too far since you keep going forward and the legs follow the torso.

Here is the recipe for my drill:
Dog paddling with no kicking. Keep your head above water, and try to keep your head level. It should not go up and down. This way I tried to make myself sure that I was not pushing the water up or down, just forward. No kicking, breathing or above water recovery was also very helpful in concentrating the pull since there was nothing else with regard to swimming, just pulling. I tried to keep my elbow high and pull with my hands and arm together, after my hand was showing the bottom of the pool. When I felt I was doing correct, my head stayed level, my body moved forward faster, I found that my body (not my head) tended to tilt to support the pull, which is just how it should be.

I hope my description was good enough. Please feel free to ask questions. Sharing these and talking about these helps all of us I think.

The "experts" say you should test regularly (2-3 times a season).  I know that my numbers won't move much, but it is a good test of fitness.  And a good reality check.  This time showed some weaknesses that need to be addressed. 

Yay!  Another boat load of snow coming our way this week!  We had 12 inches Friday night into Saturday and now the predictions (taken with a grain of salt by me) are for anywhere between 10 to 18 inches!  More time on the eliptical...And thank God for my snowblower (I just need to buy gas!)...And more hill runs (for sledding)!!

Yep, it's headed your way.  We got 8 today with a couple more overnight.  Lots of wind with this one too.  That means lots of drifts.  Excellent.  There's no way I can get my car out in the morning.  I'll have to call in "sick" since there's no way they will cancel school.  Usually happens at least once a year.  I left lesson plans on my desk, just in case. 

Just did my 800 yard time trial so I could set my training zones. This s@#t needs to start in earnest now, baby! I have an oly in April. While I am treating that event as a base training workout, I want to treat it as the end of my base period. (It's my first Oly I plan to walk a lot of the run, and train for the October Oly full-tilt with taper and such and actually turn on some speed in my pathetic slow way which means don't walk).

I did OK in the swim TT. I planned I'd do it in about 16 minutes but got it in 15:38. The corresponding training zones (from Friel's book Triathlon Training Bible) are listed in my training log.

So, I'm happy. It felt great to finally go nonstop. My "distance" form sort of clicked into place eventually, very lat-heavy swimming with lots of efficient pulling, a lot less shoulder pulling. My breathing sort of fell into place, the natural "falling" motion during the initial catch before the pull starts. Of course my form degraded over time, but that's to be expected.

Need to set my bike and run heart rate zones in the next two weeks. Call me out on it if I haven't.

Today I finally made an appt with the Sports Med clinic about my foot. I've had a strange pain in the right arch and it's not going away.  It started over Christmas break and 6 weeks later, is still just as painful.  Tuesday I go for an xray and my appt is Thurs.  It's been about 2 years since my last visit to Sports Med and I was hoping to stay away a bit longer.  Oh well.  Good news is that running doesn't seem to bother it.  Guess I'll know more next week.